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Ask EU - Facebook, BBC and Unconditional Offers from Universities.
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DavidK
2018-07-26 10:43:58 UTC
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The BBC has a page <https://www.bbc.com/news/education-44954154>
reporting a 20-fold increase in unconditional offers from universities.
There was no place to ask questions or make comments but there were
links to Facebook, Twitter, and other social media mechanisms.

I have a facebook account with, quite deliberately, no friends. Does
this mean that when I replied to the article using the facebook link
no-one can see my comment; or is there some page on Facebook that I
can't find where all comments on the article are visible?
Mike
2018-07-26 10:49:51 UTC
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Post by DavidK
The BBC has a page <https://www.bbc.com/news/education-44954154>
reporting a 20-fold increase in unconditional offers from universities.
There was no place to ask questions or make comments but there were
links to Facebook, Twitter, and other social media mechanisms.
I have a facebook account with, quite deliberately, no friends. Does
this mean that when I replied to the article using the facebook link
no-one can see my comment; or is there some page on Facebook that I
can't find where all comments on the article are visible?
You probably need to ask the question on Facebook. ;-)))
--
Toodle Pip
Vicky Ayech
2018-07-26 11:02:51 UTC
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Post by DavidK
The BBC has a page <https://www.bbc.com/news/education-44954154>
reporting a 20-fold increase in unconditional offers from universities.
There was no place to ask questions or make comments but there were
links to Facebook, Twitter, and other social media mechanisms.
I have a facebook account with, quite deliberately, no friends. Does
this mean that when I replied to the article using the facebook link
no-one can see my comment; or is there some page on Facebook that I
can't find where all comments on the article are visible?
I tried the facebook link just now and I can't use it. I opted out of
being able to use any such links via settings, apps and websites and
preferences. I turned it to off some time ago. When I want to share a
link I have to cut and paste it.
Do you mean you clicked the fb link to share the story on fb? I can't
see a link you can talk to apart from that, although I can see a
twitter one. Or did you use the form? If you clicked the only fb link
I can see your comment is visible on fb I htink.
DavidK
2018-07-26 11:23:24 UTC
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Post by Vicky Ayech
Do you mean you clicked the fb link to share the story on fb?
I clicked the FB link and was invited to comment. I wrote this ...*

I wish that BBC would give a link to the primary source when reporting
items like this. I would like, for example, to know if there was a
breakdown of the number of unconditional offers by university.

Fifty years ago I received two offers, one for 2Es and one for grades
that were then difficult to attain. I chose to go to the University that
asked for the harder grades because I thought it was a measure of how
good the university was, and also because I thought that asking for low
grades meant that they would do more filtering after the first year. I
am wondering if it is the less-reputable universities that are making
unconditional offers because they would otherwise find it difficult to
attract students.

*The technical writing course I went on didn't approve of using ellipsis
this way. I don't know why I didn't use a colon.
Vicky Ayech
2018-07-26 12:23:59 UTC
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Post by DavidK
Post by Vicky Ayech
Do you mean you clicked the fb link to share the story on fb?
I clicked the FB link and was invited to comment. I wrote this ...*
The only link I can see means you posted on the BBC site on fb, but I
can't find that story although have scrolled down a bit on their page.
The twitter button to tweet has not gone. I wonder if they had so many
responses they stopped allowing them.

I think if you posted on the bbc news fb page it would be hard to
find it. Can you see that story on their page? Or you shared that
story on your own page?
Serena Blanchflower
2018-07-26 13:14:41 UTC
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Post by DavidK
Fifty years ago I received two offers, one for 2Es and one for grades
that were then difficult to attain. I chose to go to the University that
asked for the harder grades because I thought it was a measure of how
good the university was, and also because I thought that asking for low
grades meant that they would do more filtering after the first year. I
am wondering if it is the less-reputable universities that are making
unconditional offers because they would otherwise find it difficult to
attract students.
Forty summat years ago, I had a similar pair of offers. The uni
offering 2Es was very explicit about their rationale. At the time, they
weren't seen as a very high ranking university and they were trying to
improve their rating[1]; they said they didn't expect me to accept them
as my first choice but hoped I'd use them as my insurance offer. Part
of their plan to improve their standards was clearly to attract people
who had *almost* got into top flight universities.

I've often regretted not following my gut instinct and opting for them
as my first choice university. I really liked everything about both the
course and the place but I allowed myself to follow the general
consensus that Bristol was a better university. Trouble was, the
course wasn't right for me and I ended up dropping out at the end of the
first year.


[1] As this was Warwick University, I think it's safe to say that they
were successful in this.
--
Best wishes, Serena
Q. How do you make an apple puff?
A. Chase it round the garden a few times.
Jim Easterbrook
2018-07-26 13:40:18 UTC
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Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by DavidK
Fifty years ago I received two offers, one for 2Es and one for grades
that were then difficult to attain. I chose to go to the University
that asked for the harder grades because I thought it was a measure of
how good the university was, and also because I thought that asking for
low grades meant that they would do more filtering after the first
year. I am wondering if it is the less-reputable universities that are
making unconditional offers because they would otherwise find it
difficult to attract students.
Forty summat years ago, I had a similar pair of offers. The uni
offering 2Es was very explicit about their rationale. At the time, they
weren't seen as a very high ranking university and they were trying to
improve their rating[1]; they said they didn't expect me to accept them
as my first choice but hoped I'd use them as my insurance offer. Part
of their plan to improve their standards was clearly to attract people
who had *almost* got into top flight universities.
40ish years ago I had an offer of 2 Es from Manchester almost by return
of post after I'd sent off my UCCAS form. I wish I'd had the chutzpah to
decline it immediately, but I kept it open until other offers had been
received. IIRC you were only allowed to keep two offers open.
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
Mike Ruddock
2018-07-26 14:52:29 UTC
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Post by DavidK
Fifty years ago I received two offers, one for 2Es and one for grades
that were then difficult to attain. I chose to go to the University
that asked for the harder grades because I thought it was a measure of
how good the university was, and also because I thought that asking
for low grades meant that they would do more filtering after the first
year. I am wondering if it is the less-reputable universities that are
making unconditional offers because they would otherwise find it
difficult to attract students.
Forty summat years ago, I had a similar pair of offers.  The uni
offering 2Es was very explicit about their rationale.  At the time, they
weren't seen as a very high ranking university and they were trying to
improve their rating[1]; they said they didn't expect me to accept them
as my first choice but hoped I'd use them as my insurance offer.  Part
of their plan to improve their standards was clearly to attract people
who had *almost* got into top flight universities.
I've often regretted not following my gut instinct and opting for them
as my first choice university.  I really liked everything about both the
course and the place but I allowed myself to follow the general
consensus that Bristol was a better university.   Trouble was, the
course wasn't right for me and I ended up dropping out at the end of the
first year.
[1]  As this was Warwick University, I think it's safe to say that they
were successful in this.
Interesting. I remember being told by the careers teacher at the school
where I was head of physics about that time (I left that school in 1971)
that Warwick was the coming place and already very good for Maths. On
the other hand Bristol, at least for Physics, was a place to be viewed
with caution as the drop-out rate in the first year was very high.


Mike Ruddock
Serena Blanchflower
2018-07-26 15:14:22 UTC
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Post by Mike Ruddock
Post by DavidK
Fifty years ago I received two offers, one for 2Es and one for grades
that were then difficult to attain. I chose to go to the University
that asked for the harder grades because I thought it was a measure
of how good the university was, and also because I thought that
asking for low grades meant that they would do more filtering after
the first year. I am wondering if it is the less-reputable
universities that are making unconditional offers because they would
otherwise find it difficult to attract students.
Forty summat years ago, I had a similar pair of offers.  The uni
offering 2Es was very explicit about their rationale.  At the time,
they weren't seen as a very high ranking university and they were
trying to improve their rating[1]; they said they didn't expect me to
accept them as my first choice but hoped I'd use them as my insurance
offer.  Part of their plan to improve their standards was clearly to
attract people who had *almost* got into top flight universities.
I've often regretted not following my gut instinct and opting for them
as my first choice university.  I really liked everything about both
the course and the place but I allowed myself to follow the general
consensus that Bristol was a better university.   Trouble was, the
course wasn't right for me and I ended up dropping out at the end of
the first year.
[1]  As this was Warwick University, I think it's safe to say that
they were successful in this.
Interesting. I remember being told by the careers teacher at the school
where I was head of physics about that time (I left that school in 1971)
that Warwick was the coming place and already very good for Maths. On
the other hand Bristol, at least for Physics, was a place to be viewed
with caution as the drop-out rate in the first year was very high.
Very interesting. It sounds as if your careers' teacher was better
informed than the staff at the sixth form college I went to. I wanted
to study Computer Science with Maths and the Warwick course looked
exactly what I wanted and I got a very good feel about it, when I went
for an interview. The Bristol course, although billed as CS with Maths,
was actually Maths with a bit of CS and I just ended up adding to their
drop out rate. This was in 1976.
--
Best wishes, Serena
Do you try to set aside times of quiet for openness to the Holy Spirit?
(Quaker Advices and Queries #3)
the Omrud
2018-07-26 14:58:51 UTC
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Forty summat years ago, I had a similar pair of offers.  The uni
offering 2Es was very explicit about their rationale.  At the time, they
weren't seen as a very high ranking university and they were trying to
improve their rating[1]; they said they didn't expect me to accept them
as my first choice but hoped I'd use them as my insurance offer.  Part
of their plan to improve their standards was clearly to attract people
who had *almost* got into top flight universities.
I've often regretted not following my gut instinct and opting for them
as my first choice university.  I really liked everything about both the
course and the place but I allowed myself to follow the general
consensus that Bristol was a better university.   Trouble was, the
course wasn't right for me and I ended up dropping out at the end of the
first year.
[1]  As this was Warwick University, I think it's safe to say that they
were successful in this.
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin). At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place. We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
--
David
Fenny
2018-07-27 00:02:51 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin). At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place. We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
Elder Adorable Niece (tm) applied to Cambridge to do Maths 4 years
ago, with Warwick as her fallback option. She got more than enough A
level grades, but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.

She decided rather than going through clearning and getting in at some
"lowly" place, to wait and reapply the following year. Her first
choice was Durham and she got an unconditional offer. She's just
graduated and is off to work in the City.
--
Fenny
Chris McMillan
2018-07-27 09:19:08 UTC
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Post by Fenny
Post by the Omrud
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin). At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place. We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
Elder Adorable Niece (tm) applied to Cambridge to do Maths 4 years
ago, with Warwick as her fallback option. She got more than enough A
level grades, but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
She decided rather than going through clearning and getting in at some
"lowly" place, to wait and reapply the following year. Her first
choice was Durham and she got an unconditional offer. She's just
graduated and is off to work in the City.
Well done that EAN. :).

Sincerely Chris
Btms
2018-07-27 18:48:38 UTC
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Post by Fenny
Post by the Omrud
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin). At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place. We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
Elder Adorable Niece (tm) applied to Cambridge to do Maths 4 years
ago, with Warwick as her fallback option. She got more than enough A
level grades, but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
She decided rather than going through clearning and getting in at some
"lowly" place, to wait and reapply the following year. Her first
choice was Durham and she got an unconditional offer. She's just
graduated and is off to work in the City.
Wonderful.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Dumrat
2018-07-28 13:26:21 UTC
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Post by Fenny
Post by the Omrud
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin). At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place. We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
Elder Adorable Niece (tm) applied to Cambridge to do Maths 4 years
ago, with Warwick as her fallback option. She got more than enough A
level grades, but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
She decided rather than going through clearning and getting in at some
"lowly" place, to wait and reapply the following year. Her first
choice was Durham and she got an unconditional offer. She's just
graduated and is off to work in the City.
Congratulations to Elder Adorable Niece (tm)!
--
Salaam Alaykum,
Anne, Exceptionally Traditionally-built Dumrat
BrritSki
2018-07-28 14:16:46 UTC
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Post by Dumrat
Post by Fenny
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin).  At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place.  We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
Elder Adorable Niece (tm) applied to Cambridge to do Maths 4 years
ago, with Warwick as her fallback option.  She got more than enough A
level grades, but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
She decided rather than going through clearning and getting in at some
"lowly" place, to wait and reapply the following year.  Her first
choice was Durham and she got an unconditional offer.  She's just
graduated and is off to work in the City.
Congratulations to Elder Adorable Niece (tm)!
Is this just a passing visit, or are you hanging around ?
The latter I hope...
Nick Odell
2018-07-28 16:06:47 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Post by Dumrat
Post by Fenny
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin).  At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place.  We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
Elder Adorable Niece (tm) applied to Cambridge to do Maths 4 years
ago, with Warwick as her fallback option.  She got more than enough A
level grades, but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
She decided rather than going through clearning and getting in at some
"lowly" place, to wait and reapply the following year.  Her first
choice was Durham and she got an unconditional offer.  She's just
graduated and is off to work in the City.
Congratulations to Elder Adorable Niece (tm)!
Is this just a passing visit, or are you hanging around ?
The latter I hope...
Plus one - or whatever it is that hip people say these days.

Nick
Sam Plusnet
2018-07-28 18:09:16 UTC
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Post by Nick Odell
Post by BrritSki
Post by Dumrat
Post by Fenny
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin).  At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place.  We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
Elder Adorable Niece (tm) applied to Cambridge to do Maths 4 years
ago, with Warwick as her fallback option.  She got more than enough A
level grades, but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
She decided rather than going through clearning and getting in at some
"lowly" place, to wait and reapply the following year.  Her first
choice was Durham and she got an unconditional offer.  She's just
graduated and is off to work in the City.
Congratulations to Elder Adorable Niece (tm)!
Is this just a passing visit, or are you hanging around ?
The latter I hope...
Plus one - or whatever it is that hip people say these days.
My neighbour assures me that the hip people say
"Count backwards from 100."
but he didn't get beyond 96 before the anaesthetic took hold.

However, warm welcome for Anne's return & long may it stay that way.
--
Sam Plusnet
Mike
2018-07-29 08:13:13 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Nick Odell
Post by BrritSki
Post by Dumrat
Post by Fenny
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin).  At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place.  We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
Elder Adorable Niece (tm) applied to Cambridge to do Maths 4 years
ago, with Warwick as her fallback option.  She got more than enough A
level grades, but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
She decided rather than going through clearning and getting in at some
"lowly" place, to wait and reapply the following year.  Her first
choice was Durham and she got an unconditional offer.  She's just
graduated and is off to work in the City.
Congratulations to Elder Adorable Niece (tm)!
Is this just a passing visit, or are you hanging around ?
The latter I hope...
Plus one - or whatever it is that hip people say these days.
My neighbour assures me that the hip people say
"Count backwards from 100."
but he didn't get beyond 96 before the anaesthetic took hold.
However, warm welcome for Anne's return & long may it stay that way.
Ether you can or you can’t, your choice, knock yerself out.
--
Toodle Pip
Penny
2018-08-03 09:15:46 UTC
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On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 19:09:16 +0100, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> scrawled in
the dust...
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Nick Odell
Plus one - or whatever it is that hip people say these days.
My neighbour assures me that the hip people say
"Count backwards from 100."
but he didn't get beyond 96 before the anaesthetic took hold.
This hip person mostly says "Ow!" at the moment. Why do my children and
grandchildren always make me walk so far?

PS congrats to EAN.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-29 22:59:40 UTC
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[]
Post by Nick Odell
Post by BrritSki
Post by Dumrat
Congratulations to Elder Adorable Niece (tm)!
Is this just a passing visit, or are you hanging around ?
The latter I hope...
Plus one - or whatever it is that hip people say these days.
Nick
+1 from me too!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Today you wonder if the media has become the opposition - it's become the
political classes against 24-hour media.
Jon Culshaw [voice impressionist], in RT 2015/4/11-17
Chris McMillan
2018-07-28 17:33:00 UTC
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Post by Dumrat
Post by Fenny
Post by the Omrud
Daughter went to Warwick for Engineering (as did her cousin). At that
time (2003), it was already considered one of the best fall-back choices
for those who were good enough to apply to Cambridge but didn't get a
place. We kept meeting the same applicants on our tour of her shortlist
universities.
Elder Adorable Niece (tm) applied to Cambridge to do Maths 4 years
ago, with Warwick as her fallback option. She got more than enough A
level grades, but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
She decided rather than going through clearning and getting in at some
"lowly" place, to wait and reapply the following year. Her first
choice was Durham and she got an unconditional offer. She's just
graduated and is off to work in the City.
Congratulations to Elder Adorable Niece (tm)!
Oh hello, Dumrat, didn’t see you there.

Sincerely Chris
krw
2018-08-05 17:10:53 UTC
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Post by Fenny
but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
What are they when they are at home please?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
John Ashby
2018-08-05 19:00:19 UTC
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Post by krw
  but missed out on the STEP [1] grades required for
either place.
What are they when they are at home please?
Sixth Term Entrance Paper or some such (I had to look it up too). Some
University maths departments have low faith in the predictive power of
A-level maths and believe their own exams are better at sorting out
those who will succeed as University mathematicians. My experience many
years go was that yes, uni maths was different - suddenly rigour was a
serious requirement and much time seemed to be spent proving the
bleeding obvious, but if you stuck with it then it all made sense by the
end o the first year (when I gave up and just did physics, probably
there was another culture shock awaiting the second-years).

Back to STEP, though, it looks as though there's starting to be a return
to uni's running their own entrance procedures.

john
Rosemary Miskin
2018-08-06 09:49:45 UTC
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Sixth Term Entrance Paper or some such (candidates
It was originally a replacement for the Oxbridge entrance exams taken in
the autumn after A-levels. I think it was changed to increase the number
of state school candidates, as many such schools weren't geared up for a
third year sixth form.

Rosemary



,
DavidK
2018-07-26 15:11:22 UTC
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Forty summat years ago, I had a similar pair of offers.  The uni
offering 2Es was very explicit about their rationale.  At the time, they
weren't seen as a very high ranking university and they were trying to
improve their rating[1]; they said they didn't expect me to accept them
as my first choice but hoped I'd use them as my insurance offer.  Part
of their plan to improve their standards was clearly to attract people
who had *almost* got into top flight universities.
I've often regretted not following my gut instinct and opting for them
as my first choice university.  I really liked everything about both the
course and the place but I allowed myself to follow the general
consensus that Bristol was a better university.   Trouble was, the
course wasn't right for me and I ended up dropping out at the end of the
first year.
[1]  As this was Warwick University, I think it's safe to say that they
were successful in this.
Ah, it was Nottingham which offered me 2Es and Warwick that asked for
high grades. Mathematics.
LFS
2018-07-26 16:11:54 UTC
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Post by DavidK
Post by Vicky Ayech
Do you mean you clicked the fb link to share the story on fb?
I clicked the FB link and was invited to comment. I wrote this ...*
I wish that BBC would give a link to the primary source when reporting
items like this. I would like, for example, to know if there was a
breakdown of the number of unconditional offers by university.
Fifty years ago I received two offers, one for 2Es and one for grades
that were then difficult to attain. I chose to go to the University that
asked for the harder grades because I thought it was a measure of how
good the university was, and also because I thought that asking for low
grades meant that they would do more filtering after the first year. I
am wondering if it is the less-reputable universities that are making
unconditional offers because they would otherwise find it difficult to
attract students.
*The technical writing course I went on didn't approve of using ellipsis
this way. I don't know why I didn't use a colon.
Competition for students is fierce at the moment as applications are
down. Many reputable [1] universities will be making unconditional
offers and a great deal of marketing effort is also going on.

[1] I don't know of any disreputable universities.
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
John Ashby
2018-07-26 18:28:41 UTC
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Post by LFS
Post by DavidK
Post by Vicky Ayech
Do you mean you clicked the fb link to share the story on fb?
I clicked the FB link and was invited to comment. I wrote this ...*
I wish that BBC would give a link to the primary source when reporting
items like this. I would like, for example, to know if there was a
breakdown of the number of unconditional offers by university.
Fifty years ago I received two offers, one for 2Es and one for grades
that were then difficult to attain. I chose to go to the University
that asked for the harder grades because I thought it was a measure of
how good the university was, and also because I thought that asking
for low grades meant that they would do more filtering after the first
year. I am wondering if it is the less-reputable universities that are
making unconditional offers because they would otherwise find it
difficult to attract students.
*The technical writing course I went on didn't approve of using
ellipsis this way. I don't know why I didn't use a colon.
Competition for students is fierce at the moment as applications are
down. Many reputable [1] universities will be making unconditional
offers and a great deal of marketing effort is also going on.
[1] I don't know of any disreputable universities.
Oh, so tempting.

john
krw
2018-08-05 17:13:22 UTC
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as applications are down.
Do you think this is because the cost is simply unrealistic and that
applicants are voting with their feet? Perhaps all these student loans
are not a sensible solution?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-06 11:49:30 UTC
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Post by krw
as applications are down.
Do you think this is because the cost is simply unrealistic and that
applicants are voting with their feet? Perhaps all these student loans
are not a sensible solution?
I was under the impression that the student "loan" is an extremely
benign debt - you only (have to) pay it back as an extra tax of 9% of
your salary, and only on the part of that that's above a certain level
(which is two or maybe three times the minimum wage so some people will
never have to pay it), and whatever's left owing after 30 years is
written off regardless. So given all that (only the well-paid have to
repay any of it and in most cases it won't be fully repaid), it's really
not that much a crippling debt, despite what the media love to say. (I
believe it's not supposed to affect your credit score, ability to get a
mortgage, etc., much, unlike other _real_ debts.)

It may well be - because of the misleading coverage - a contributing
factor to applications being down. I'd like to _hope_ there's also an
element of people realising that the _benefit_ of going isn't universal,
but I fear that's unlikely to be the case.
--
Post by krw
Won't you come into the garden? I would like my roses to see you. -Richard
krw
2018-08-08 21:00:31 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by krw
as applications are down.
Do you think this is because the cost is simply unrealistic and that
applicants are voting with their feet?  Perhaps all these student
loans are not a sensible solution?
I was under the impression that the student "loan" is an extremely
benign debt - you only (have to) pay it back as an extra tax of 9% of
your salary, and only on the part of that that's above a certain level
(which is two or maybe three times the minimum wage so some people will
never have to pay it), and whatever's left owing after 30 years is
written off regardless. So given all that (only the well-paid have to
repay any of it and in most cases it won't be fully repaid), it's really
not that much a crippling debt, despite what the media love to say. (I
believe it's not supposed to affect your credit score, ability to get a
mortgage, etc., much, unlike other _real_ debts.)
It may well be - because of the misleading coverage - a contributing
factor to applications being down. I'd like to _hope_ there's also an
element of people realising that the _benefit_ of going isn't universal,
but I fear that's unlikely to be the case.
But it is still debt limiting ability to purchase houses and so on. All
debt is pernicious and debt with excessive rates of interest that are
never actually repaid are worse still.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-09 07:25:48 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by krw
as applications are down.
Do you think this is because the cost is simply unrealistic and that
applicants are voting with their feet?  Perhaps all these student
loans are not a sensible solution?
I was under the impression that the student "loan" is an extremely
benign debt - you only (have to) pay it back as an extra tax of 9% of
your salary, and only on the part of that that's above a certain level
(which is two or maybe three times the minimum wage so some people
will never have to pay it), and whatever's left owing after 30 years
is written off regardless. So given all that (only the well-paid have
[]

I suspect we differ on a fundamental and will thus never agree, but I'll
Post by krw
But it is still debt limiting ability to purchase houses and so on.
I suppose so, but something which only accesses 9% of the part of your
salary that's over 2x k a year will have a lot less effect than
virtually any other sort of debt.
Post by krw
All debt is pernicious
Obviously, but most forms (which some people also, sadly, have to incur)
are far more so than this one.
Post by krw
and debt with excessive rates of interest
Isn't this one somewhere between three and two times inflation, and thus
far lower than many - certainly than the evil payday ones, but I think
than some mortgages? I certainly wouldn't consider this one (isn't it
something like 6% at the moment?) excessive.
Post by krw
that are never actually repaid are worse still.
I'm either not grasping your point there, or you've switched sides; if
that was tied to the "rates of interest" part, i. e. to the disadvantage
of the "borrower", then surely the 30-year cutoff is a Good Thing - for
them; it is a bad thing for the _lender_.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Never be led astray onto the path of virtue.
krw
2018-08-09 10:15:12 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by krw
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by krw
as applications are down.
Do you think this is because the cost is simply unrealistic and that
applicants are voting with their feet?  Perhaps all these student
loans are not a sensible solution?
I was under the impression that the student "loan" is an extremely
benign debt - you only (have to) pay it back as an extra tax of 9% of
your salary, and only on the part of that that's above a certain
level (which is two or maybe three times the minimum wage so some
people will  never have to pay it), and whatever's left owing after
30 years is  written off regardless. So given all that (only the
well-paid have
[]
I suspect we differ on a fundamental and will thus never agree, but I'll
Post by krw
But it is still debt limiting ability to purchase houses and so on.
I suppose so, but something which only accesses 9% of the part of your
salary that's over 2x k a year will have a lot less effect than
virtually any other sort of debt.
Post by krw
All debt is pernicious
Obviously, but most forms (which some people also, sadly, have to incur)
are far more so than this one.
Post by krw
and debt with excessive rates of interest
Isn't this one somewhere between three and two times inflation, and thus
far lower than many - certainly than the evil payday ones, but I think
than some mortgages? I certainly wouldn't consider this one (isn't it
something like 6% at the moment?) excessive.
Post by krw
that are never actually repaid are worse still.
I'm either not grasping your point there, or you've switched sides; if
that was tied to the "rates of interest" part, i. e. to the disadvantage
of the "borrower", then surely the 30-year cutoff is a Good Thing - for
them; it is a bad thing for the _lender_.
Let me make myself 100% clear. I am completely against student loans.
They have penurious rates of interest. They limit the individuals
abilities to take other loans preventing buying houses etc. in many
cases they are spurious having caused all that damage as they get
written off. They imply debt is "a good thing". They send all the
wrong signals to those taking them on.

The government then package them up and take a huge capital loss when
selling them into the secondary market. Which means they might well pay
for the students to go to university in the first place instead of
having a monumental organisation pissing away vast sums of money in
terms of management which would not be needed if we paid simple grants.

Talk about building a debt ridden monument out of a tiny molehill.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Mike
2018-08-09 10:48:26 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by krw
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by krw
as applications are down.
Do you think this is because the cost is simply unrealistic and that
applicants are voting with their feet?  Perhaps all these student
loans are not a sensible solution?
I was under the impression that the student "loan" is an extremely
benign debt - you only (have to) pay it back as an extra tax of 9% of
your salary, and only on the part of that that's above a certain
level (which is two or maybe three times the minimum wage so some
people will  never have to pay it), and whatever's left owing after
30 years is  written off regardless. So given all that (only the
well-paid have
[]
I suspect we differ on a fundamental and will thus never agree, but I'll
Post by krw
But it is still debt limiting ability to purchase houses and so on.
I suppose so, but something which only accesses 9% of the part of your
salary that's over 2x k a year will have a lot less effect than
virtually any other sort of debt.
Post by krw
All debt is pernicious
Obviously, but most forms (which some people also, sadly, have to incur)
are far more so than this one.
Post by krw
and debt with excessive rates of interest
Isn't this one somewhere between three and two times inflation, and thus
far lower than many - certainly than the evil payday ones, but I think
than some mortgages? I certainly wouldn't consider this one (isn't it
something like 6% at the moment?) excessive.
Post by krw
that are never actually repaid are worse still.
I'm either not grasping your point there, or you've switched sides; if
that was tied to the "rates of interest" part, i. e. to the disadvantage
of the "borrower", then surely the 30-year cutoff is a Good Thing - for
them; it is a bad thing for the _lender_.
Let me make myself 100% clear. I am completely against student loans.
They have penurious rates of interest. They limit the individuals
abilities to take other loans preventing buying houses etc. in many
cases they are spurious having caused all that damage as they get
written off. They imply debt is "a good thing". They send all the
wrong signals to those taking them on.
The government then package them up and take a huge capital loss when
selling them into the secondary market. Which means they might well pay
for the students to go to university in the first place instead of
having a monumental organisation pissing away vast sums of money in
terms of management which would not be needed if we paid simple grants.
Talk about building a debt ridden monument out of a tiny molehill.
Wel sed Sir!
--
Toodle Pip
BrritSki
2018-08-09 13:02:12 UTC
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Let me make myself 100% clear.  I am completely against student loans.
They have penurious rates of interest.  They limit the individuals
abilities to take other loans preventing buying houses etc.  in many
cases they are spurious having caused all that damage as they get
written off.  They imply debt is "a good thing".  They send all the
wrong signals to those taking them on.
The government then package them up and take a huge capital loss when
selling them into the secondary market.  Which means they might well pay
for the students to go to university in the first place instead of
having a monumental organisation pissing away vast sums of money in
terms of management which would not be needed if we paid simple grants.
Talk about building a debt ridden monument out of a tiny molehill.
<languid wave>

The only thing I would add is that we send far too many people to
university to do useless degrees. The 5% that went in my day was far too
few, the 50% we send today is far too many. IMHO.
Btms
2018-08-09 13:13:40 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Let me make myself 100% clear.  I am completely against student loans.
They have penurious rates of interest.  They limit the individuals
abilities to take other loans preventing buying houses etc.  in many
cases they are spurious having caused all that damage as they get
written off.  They imply debt is "a good thing".  They send all the
wrong signals to those taking them on.
The government then package them up and take a huge capital loss when
selling them into the secondary market.  Which means they might well pay
for the students to go to university in the first place instead of
having a monumental organisation pissing away vast sums of money in
terms of management which would not be needed if we paid simple grants.
Talk about building a debt ridden monument out of a tiny molehill.
<languid wave>
The only thing I would add is that we send far too many people to
university to do useless degrees. The 5% that went in my day was far too
few, the 50% we send today is far too many. IMHO.
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time. When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously: “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-09 19:57:01 UTC
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[]
Post by Btms
Post by BrritSki
<languid wave>
On the subject of student "loan"s: if - see below - we decide that the
number we should be sending is more than we could afford to grant, I
think the current system isn't bad. Far from perfect.
Post by Btms
Post by BrritSki
The only thing I would add is that we send far too many people to
university to do useless degrees. The 5% that went in my day was far too
few, the 50% we send today is far too many. IMHO.
YANA. And not just the numbers, the mix. While I would certainly agree
that going to uni gives _far_ more than just a good grounding for a
career, I feel there should be _some_ attempt to match the numbers of
places on courses to the demand, at least ones that receive a
grant/loan/whatever. I can't see it ever happening, (a) because there
would be an outcry if it were ever even suggested (I expect one from
UMRA), (b) because I imagine any such matching would be nigh impossible.

When I was there, there seemed to me far more people studying English as
a subject than I could ever see getting employment based on it. I don't
know what the current oversubscribed subjects (in terms of demand) is:
I'm _not_ going to pick the popular whipping boy, "Media Studies",
because I genuinely don't know that there _isn't_ a matching demand. I
do know there aren't enough doctors and engineers, although I suspect
(at least in the case of doctors) that might be an ability shortage
rather than an inclination shortage.
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time. When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously: “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
So what did you do - say _nothing_ about the 19, and something about the
one?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Actors are fairly modest...A lot of us have quite a lot to be modest about. -
Simon Greenall (voice of Aleksandr the "Simples!" Meerkat), RT 11-17 Dec 2010
Btms
2018-08-09 20:28:47 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]
Post by Btms
Post by BrritSki
<languid wave>
On the subject of student "loan"s: if - see below - we decide that the
number we should be sending is more than we could afford to grant, I
think the current system isn't bad. Far from perfect.
Post by Btms
Post by BrritSki
The only thing I would add is that we send far too many people to
university to do useless degrees. The 5% that went in my day was far too
few, the 50% we send today is far too many. IMHO.
YANA. And not just the numbers, the mix. While I would certainly agree
that going to uni gives _far_ more than just a good grounding for a
career, I feel there should be _some_ attempt to match the numbers of
places on courses to the demand, at least ones that receive a
grant/loan/whatever. I can't see it ever happening, (a) because there
would be an outcry if it were ever even suggested (I expect one from
UMRA), (b) because I imagine any such matching would be nigh impossible.
When I was there, there seemed to me far more people studying English as
a subject than I could ever see getting employment based on it. I don't
I'm _not_ going to pick the popular whipping boy, "Media Studies",
because I genuinely don't know that there _isn't_ a matching demand. I
do know there aren't enough doctors and engineers, although I suspect
(at least in the case of doctors) that might be an ability shortage
rather than an inclination shortage.
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time. When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously: “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
So what did you do - say _nothing_ about the 19, and something about the
one?
Tbh I can’t recall,. But Iirc a glowing reference for the one
and mumblings about learning development for the rest.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Vicky Ayech
2018-08-09 20:38:33 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]
Post by Btms
Post by BrritSki
<languid wave>
On the subject of student "loan"s: if - see below - we decide that the
number we should be sending is more than we could afford to grant, I
think the current system isn't bad. Far from perfect.
Post by Btms
Post by BrritSki
The only thing I would add is that we send far too many people to
university to do useless degrees. The 5% that went in my day was far too
few, the 50% we send today is far too many. IMHO.
YANA. And not just the numbers, the mix. While I would certainly agree
that going to uni gives _far_ more than just a good grounding for a
career, I feel there should be _some_ attempt to match the numbers of
places on courses to the demand, at least ones that receive a
grant/loan/whatever. I can't see it ever happening, (a) because there
would be an outcry if it were ever even suggested (I expect one from
UMRA), (b) because I imagine any such matching would be nigh impossible.
When I was there, there seemed to me far more people studying English as
a subject than I could ever see getting employment based on it. I don't
I'm _not_ going to pick the popular whipping boy, "Media Studies",
because I genuinely don't know that there _isn't_ a matching demand. I
do know there aren't enough doctors and engineers, although I suspect
(at least in the case of doctors) that might be an ability shortage
rather than an inclination shortage.
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time. When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously: “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
So what did you do - say _nothing_ about the 19, and something about the
one?
Tbh I can’t recall,. But Iirc a glowing reference for the one
and mumblings about learning development for the rest.
I worked for Middlesex University for a while doing learning support.
Some was for second language speakers and some people who were
dyslexic, but some were just struggling at that level, and some of
those were post-grads from other universities. I think they were on
diplomas because the first degree didn't seem to have opened any doors
for them, or not ones at levels they had expected to be at after a
degree.

That was part of the problem. When people started on the degree
courses they expected to be doing jobs at a certain level when they
graduated. Some must have had support to graduate, judging by their
struggles on the post-grad courses. Selling degree courses to those
who were not going to benefit was a con. I think it was to keep them
off the unemployment lists, wasn't it? Some kinds of jobs were
vanishing and new ones were not being created in sufficient numbers.
Btms
2018-08-10 07:47:38 UTC
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.
Post by Vicky Ayech
That was part of the problem. When people started on the degree
courses they expected to be doing jobs at a certain level when they
graduated. Some must have had support to graduate, judging by their
struggles on the post-grad courses. Selling degree courses to those
who were not going to benefit was a con. I think it was to keep them
off the unemployment lists, wasn't it? Some kinds of jobs were
vanishing and new ones were not being created in sufficient numbers.
Agreed. There was a time when a degree from Midx Uni would not have
impressed anyone.
Very deceiving for students.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Vicky Ayech
2018-08-10 08:10:59 UTC
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Post by Btms
.
Post by Vicky Ayech
That was part of the problem. When people started on the degree
courses they expected to be doing jobs at a certain level when they
graduated. Some must have had support to graduate, judging by their
struggles on the post-grad courses. Selling degree courses to those
who were not going to benefit was a con. I think it was to keep them
off the unemployment lists, wasn't it? Some kinds of jobs were
vanishing and new ones were not being created in sufficient numbers.
Agreed. There was a time when a degree from Midx Uni would not have
impressed anyone.
Very deceiving for students.
Oh by the time I was there it was considered a good university for
some courses, but the students I am thinking of were there after doing
a first degree elsewhere. And the reason they were struggling was
possibly that Middlesex had good standards in the diploma they were
going for.
Penny
2018-08-09 20:43:14 UTC
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On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 20:57:01 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
While I would certainly agree
that going to uni gives _far_ more than just a good grounding for a
career, I feel there should be _some_ attempt to match the numbers of
places on courses to the demand, at least ones that receive a
grant/loan/whatever. I can't see it ever happening, (a) because there
would be an outcry if it were ever even suggested (I expect one from
UMRA), (b) because I imagine any such matching would be nigh impossible.
I shared a flat with a chap who had just started his first proper job in a
bank - on some sort of graduate fast-track I think. His degree was in
aeronautical engineering because he needed to have some sort of degree for
the fast-track programme, from what he told me, the bank didn't much care
what it was. Gliding was one of his hobbies and aeronautical engineering
appealed to him personally so that's what he did.

The daughter of an old school friend of mine also did an engineering degree
(fuel, I think), not because she particularly wanted to work in engineering
but because her mother knew she would easily get a place on a course and
was friends with the boss of a local company who would give her some
work-place experience. I think she was doing ok on the course though her
interest in it as a career, never strong, had definitely waned (not quite
the same thing as mucking around with motorbikes with a bike racer). She
was planning to work on the tech side of the events industry instead
(didn't happen - other events intervened).

Just two examples of needing some leeway on numbers in matching degree
courses to demand.

Yes, there are probably far too many arts graduates but presumably a
university education prepares them for something other than how to deal
with a hangover while trying to meet a deadline.

The worry at the moment is, we've been plugging the gaps in supply of
suitable home-grown graduates by importing them from elsewhere. If that
supply-line is going to be turned off where are the new people going to
come from?
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-10 03:12:38 UTC
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Post by Penny
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 20:57:01 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
While I would certainly agree
that going to uni gives _far_ more than just a good grounding for a
career, I feel there should be _some_ attempt to match the numbers of
places on courses to the demand, at least ones that receive a
grant/loan/whatever. I can't see it ever happening, (a) because there
would be an outcry if it were ever even suggested (I expect one from
UMRA), (b) because I imagine any such matching would be nigh impossible.
I shared a flat with a chap who had just started his first proper job in a
bank - on some sort of graduate fast-track I think. His degree was in
aeronautical engineering because he needed to have some sort of degree for
the fast-track programme, from what he told me, the bank didn't much care
what it was. Gliding was one of his hobbies and aeronautical engineering
appealed to him personally so that's what he did.
[]
Post by Penny
Just two examples of needing some leeway on numbers in matching degree
courses to demand.
Yes, I remember being told that "the city" would take graduates in
anything. Which seemed a waste (and somewhat tawdry) to me.
Post by Penny
Yes, there are probably far too many arts graduates but presumably a
university education prepares them for something other than how to deal
with a hangover while trying to meet a deadline.
The worry at the moment is, we've been plugging the gaps in supply of
suitable home-grown graduates by importing them from elsewhere. If that
supply-line is going to be turned off where are the new people going to
come from?
I don't think any but the most rabid politicians have suggested turning
off the flow of people with needed skills; I think it's more the
(perceived - whether there in practice or not I don't know) hordes of
the unskilled, accompanied by their families, that have people worried
(and thus politicians pandering to them).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A sleekzorp without a tornpee is like a quop without a fertsneet (sort of).
Vicky Ayech
2018-08-10 08:16:53 UTC
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On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 04:12:38 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I don't think any but the most rabid politicians have suggested turning
off the flow of people with needed skills; I think it's more the
(perceived - whether there in practice or not I don't know) hordes of
the unskilled, accompanied by their families, that have people worried
(and thus politicians pandering to them).
There are already shortages in some fields for professionals, who are
unable to gain entry. I recall a number of doctors were refused visas.
They were presumably not EU as those don't require them, but those are
no longer keen to come.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-visa-foreign-workers-denied-entry-theresa-may-doctors-engineers-jobs-brexit-a8354266.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-doctor-recruitment-india-home-office-visas-rejected-amber-rudd-windrush-a8324831.html
Penny
2018-08-10 09:27:37 UTC
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On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 04:12:38 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Penny
The worry at the moment is, we've been plugging the gaps in supply of
suitable home-grown graduates by importing them from elsewhere. If that
supply-line is going to be turned off where are the new people going to
come from?
I don't think any but the most rabid politicians have suggested turning
off the flow of people with needed skills; I think it's more the
(perceived - whether there in practice or not I don't know) hordes of
the unskilled, accompanied by their families, that have people worried
(and thus politicians pandering to them).
I thought it had already started - deporting people who have lived and
worked here for years and who have been assets to their communities and the
economy. Often on some technicality which could have been sorted out.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Btms
2018-08-10 11:37:42 UTC
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Post by Vicky Ayech
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 04:12:38 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Penny
The worry at the moment is, we've been plugging the gaps in supply of
suitable home-grown graduates by importing them from elsewhere. If that
supply-line is going to be turned off where are the new people going to
come from?
I don't think any but the most rabid politicians have suggested turning
off the flow of people with needed skills; I think it's more the
(perceived - whether there in practice or not I don't know) hordes of
the unskilled, accompanied by their families, that have people worried
(and thus politicians pandering to them).
I thought it had already started - deporting people who have lived and
worked here for years and who have been assets to their communities and the
economy. Often on some technicality which could have been sorted out.
But widening the view a little: my dil took up GB nationality as this was
easier when wanting to get back to her country of origin.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
RC Mitchell
2018-08-10 10:23:33 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Yes, I remember being told that "the city" would take graduates in
anything. Which seemed a waste (and somewhat tawdry) to me.
As one who once recruited project teams in the City, I can assure you
that what was being sought there, in the back rooms as well as the
trading floors, was people who could think critically, think fast and
think round corners rather than people with particular
skills. Particular skills can be picked up on the job.

Humanities graduates often have the advantage in that their disciplines
aren't geared towards 'right answers' but to be able you express and
justify a point of view, concisely and plausibly, without the comfort of
a fixed destination to aim for.

Anyway, education as an end in itself ought to be valued much more,
rather than as a way of churning out economic units with compliant
attitudes for the benefit of commerce. Except, of course, for the rich
kids destined to be Leaders of Men who can be permitted to study PPE but
we wouldn't want the plebs doing that and getting ideas above their
station, would we? That said, we do need more scientists in
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I don't think any but the most rabid politicians have suggested
turning off the flow of people with needed skills; I think it's more
the (perceived - whether there in practice or not I don't know) hordes
of the unskilled, accompanied by their families, that have people
worried (and thus politicians pandering to them).
I have a strong suspicion that our Powers That Be would rather not get
insights into psychology and media studies, because they would then know
precisely how they are being led by the nose.

RnT
Btms
2018-08-10 07:48:30 UTC
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Post by Penny
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 20:57:01 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
While I would certainly agree
that going to uni gives _far_ more than just a good grounding for a
career, I feel there should be _some_ attempt to match the numbers of
places on courses to the demand, at least ones that receive a
grant/loan/whatever. I can't see it ever happening, (a) because there
would be an outcry if it were ever even suggested (I expect one from
UMRA), (b) because I imagine any such matching would be nigh impossible.
I shared a flat with a chap who had just started his first proper job in a
bank - on some sort of graduate fast-track I think. His degree was in
aeronautical engineering because he needed to have some sort of degree for
the fast-track programme, from what he told me, the bank didn't much care
what it was. Gliding was one of his hobbies and aeronautical engineering
appealed to him personally so that's what he did.
The daughter of an old school friend of mine also did an engineering degree
(fuel, I think), not because she particularly wanted to work in engineering
but because her mother knew she would easily get a place on a course and
was friends with the boss of a local company who would give her some
work-place experience. I think she was doing ok on the course though her
interest in it as a career, never strong, had definitely waned (not quite
the same thing as mucking around with motorbikes with a bike racer). She
was planning to work on the tech side of the events industry instead
(didn't happen - other events intervened).
Just two examples of needing some leeway on numbers in matching degree
courses to demand.
Yes, there are probably far too many arts graduates but presumably a
university education prepares them for something other than how to deal
with a hangover while trying to meet a deadline.
The worry at the moment is, we've been plugging the gaps in supply of
suitable home-grown graduates by importing them from elsewhere. If that
supply-line is going to be turned off where are the new people going to
come from?
Oh yes. Unfortunately, the imported candidates ime tended to struggle with
English and their culture influenced their attendances. I recall a young
man who disppeared for a few weeks. I asked After his well being on his
return and he advised he had needed to help a friend move house. Istm that
in his culture the priorities are different. Not that education is not
valued but family is above the law and friends are above work. It was
interesting and illuminating. I appreciate these values. We are getting
that way as working Mothers have to juggle needs of children with needs in
the workplace. Our balance isn’t right either.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sid Nuncius
2018-08-11 08:34:53 UTC
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Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time. When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously: “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
Yes, I remember the "no negative comments" phase in school Records Of
Achievement. In some ways it was laudable in that we no longer got
comments like "This pupil is a complete waste of time," which I had seen
in the past and thought completely unacceptable. However, the Senior
Teacher in charge of RoAs, who IMO was Working Toward The Required
Standard for his job[1], interpreted "nothing negative" to mean, for
example, that we were forbidden to record anything other than 100%
punctuality, because reporting that a student was punctual only 70% of
the time was "negative". (I argued that 70% punctuality was what they
had achieved, and we should record it in the same way as a 70% exam
result, say. But no; apparently it was "negative".)

This seemed to me a) to be dishonest and b) to render the RoAs entirely
useless for any potential employer, further ed. establishment etc. I am
strongly in favour of encouragement, praising honest effort, rewarding
achievement of whatever level etc. I do not approve of misleading
people by suppression of important, relevant information because it is
"negative". There is no excuse for content-free criticism or abuse in
reports, but neither, IMO, is there an excuse for indiscriminate,
content-free praise.

[1]It is left as an exercise for the reader to translate this.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Vicky Ayech
2018-08-11 09:06:54 UTC
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 09:34:53 +0100, Sid Nuncius
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time. When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously: “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
Yes, I remember the "no negative comments" phase in school Records Of
Achievement. In some ways it was laudable in that we no longer got
comments like "This pupil is a complete waste of time," which I had seen
in the past and thought completely unacceptable. However, the Senior
Teacher in charge of RoAs, who IMO was Working Toward The Required
Standard for his job[1], interpreted "nothing negative" to mean, for
example, that we were forbidden to record anything other than 100%
punctuality, because reporting that a student was punctual only 70% of
the time was "negative". (I argued that 70% punctuality was what they
had achieved, and we should record it in the same way as a 70% exam
result, say. But no; apparently it was "negative".)
This seemed to me a) to be dishonest and b) to render the RoAs entirely
useless for any potential employer, further ed. establishment etc. I am
strongly in favour of encouragement, praising honest effort, rewarding
achievement of whatever level etc. I do not approve of misleading
people by suppression of important, relevant information because it is
"negative". There is no excuse for content-free criticism or abuse in
reports, but neither, IMO, is there an excuse for indiscriminate,
content-free praise.
[1]It is left as an exercise for the reader to translate this.
ROAs were a boring and onerous activity for tutors and students. I
don't recall having them for very long. It was probably just at one
college..or maybe because I taught teenagers there and adults didn't
get them.

Very amusing was when I taught 0-3 year olds in Spain for a year and
we had to do termly reports and a syllabus and outlines of lessons.
Outside tubs of water and empty yoghurt pots was one lesson. Different
colour cups. Watching Button Moon and learning the vocabulary was
another :). Making things out of modelling clay. The reports were
online in a fill in forms format. They do it in the UK too.The parents
love them. Ok, as a grandparent I do too :)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-11 13:14:36 UTC
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Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time. When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously: “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
Yes, I remember the "no negative comments" phase in school Records Of
Achievement. In some ways it was laudable in that we no longer got
comments like "This pupil is a complete waste of time," which I had
seen in the past and thought completely unacceptable. However, the
[]
Then there's the old classic "this pupil is trying." [Very trying.]

When my mother taught English in German schools, she had the excuse of
working in a foreign language [although she spoke German fairly well, I
don't _think_ she had ever gained any qualification in it - in those
days, English lessons in German schools were entirely in English!], so
rather relished the ability to be honest rather than having to use
weasel words in her reports. (I suspect she exaggerated this for effect,
and was in fact reasonably kind.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Grief generates a huge energy in you and it's better for everybody if you
harness it to do something. - Judi Dench, RT 2015/2/28-3/6
Nick Odell
2018-08-11 21:21:36 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time.  When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support
any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously:  “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
Yes, I remember the "no negative comments" phase in school Records Of
Achievement.  In some ways it was laudable in that we no longer got
comments like "This pupil is a complete waste of time," which I had
seen in the past and thought completely unacceptable.  However, the
[]
Then there's the old classic "this pupil is trying." [Very trying.]
When my mother taught English in German schools, she had the excuse of
working in a foreign language [although she spoke German fairly well, I
don't _think_ she had ever gained any qualification in it - in those
days, English lessons in German schools were entirely in English!], so
rather relished the ability to be honest rather than having to use
weasel words in her reports. (I suspect she exaggerated this for effect,
and was in fact reasonably kind.)
That's an interesting point - English lessons in English - no, no, hear
me out, serious point on the way.

Are we the only nation that uses our native language as the medium for
teaching a foreign language? The foreign schools I've experienced all
teach English by total immersion - and now you've added Germany where
they do it too. Could this be the reason why the British are so rubbish
at foreign languages and most other Europeans are so good?

Nick
Penny
2018-08-11 22:56:27 UTC
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 22:21:36 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Are we the only nation that uses our native language as the medium for
teaching a foreign language? The foreign schools I've experienced all
teach English by total immersion - and now you've added Germany where
they do it too. Could this be the reason why the British are so rubbish
at foreign languages and most other Europeans are so good?
I was taught French in French by a French woman. I was rubbish at it.
I was taught German in English by a German chap - I did a bit better at
that until we moved across the county and I had to do 1st year German again
with a very boring woman (no idea where she was from).

<slight swerve>
Here in Wales, of course, the Welsh medium schools teach everything in
Welsh (well, I've no idea how they teach other languages). I got chatting
recently with a chap who'd struggled with the A level biology paper because
the vocabulary he had been taught was not that used in the exam. He'd also
been baffled on a holiday job because he was unfamiliar with the local term
for packed lunch. A district nurse in the same conversation said she'd had
to learn a lot of new vocabulary when working in west Wales.

Makes me wonder how useful school French is in rural France.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
krw
2018-08-12 09:10:19 UTC
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Post by Penny
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 22:21:36 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Are we the only nation that uses our native language as the medium for
teaching a foreign language? The foreign schools I've experienced all
teach English by total immersion - and now you've added Germany where
they do it too. Could this be the reason why the British are so rubbish
at foreign languages and most other Europeans are so good?
I was taught French in French by a French woman. I was rubbish at it.
I was taught German in English by a German chap - I did a bit better at
that until we moved across the county and I had to do 1st year German again
with a very boring woman (no idea where she was from).
<slight swerve>
Here in Wales, of course, the Welsh medium schools teach everything in
Welsh (well, I've no idea how they teach other languages). I got chatting
recently with a chap who'd struggled with the A level biology paper because
the vocabulary he had been taught was not that used in the exam. He'd also
been baffled on a holiday job because he was unfamiliar with the local term
for packed lunch. A district nurse in the same conversation said she'd had
to learn a lot of new vocabulary when working in west Wales.
Makes me wonder how useful school French is in rural France.
We had a Welsh teacher for our French lessons some of the time. (There
were two French teachers, the other one was married to the chemistry
teacher).
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Btms
2018-08-12 06:46:51 UTC
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Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time.  When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support
any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously:  “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
Yes, I remember the "no negative comments" phase in school Records Of
Achievement.  In some ways it was laudable in that we no longer got
comments like "This pupil is a complete waste of time," which I had
seen in the past and thought completely unacceptable.  However, the
[]
Then there's the old classic "this pupil is trying." [Very trying.]
When my mother taught English in German schools, she had the excuse of
working in a foreign language [although she spoke German fairly well, I
don't _think_ she had ever gained any qualification in it - in those
days, English lessons in German schools were entirely in English!], so
rather relished the ability to be honest rather than having to use
weasel words in her reports. (I suspect she exaggerated this for effect,
and was in fact reasonably kind.)
That's an interesting point - English lessons in English - no, no, hear
me out, serious point on the way.
Are we the only nation that uses our native language as the medium for
teaching a foreign language? The foreign schools I've experienced all
teach English by total immersion - and now you've added Germany where
they do it too. Could this be the reason why the British are so rubbish
at foreign languages and most other Europeans are so good?
Nick
Could be and I may be mis remembering but I had a friend way back who
taught French at Eton with the total immersion system. She was French.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Vicky Ayech
2018-08-12 08:34:18 UTC
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Post by Btms
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time.  When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support
any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously:  “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
Yes, I remember the "no negative comments" phase in school Records Of
Achievement.  In some ways it was laudable in that we no longer got
comments like "This pupil is a complete waste of time," which I had
seen in the past and thought completely unacceptable.  However, the
[]
Then there's the old classic "this pupil is trying." [Very trying.]
When my mother taught English in German schools, she had the excuse of
working in a foreign language [although she spoke German fairly well, I
don't _think_ she had ever gained any qualification in it - in those
days, English lessons in German schools were entirely in English!], so
rather relished the ability to be honest rather than having to use
weasel words in her reports. (I suspect she exaggerated this for effect,
and was in fact reasonably kind.)
That's an interesting point - English lessons in English - no, no, hear
me out, serious point on the way.
Are we the only nation that uses our native language as the medium for
teaching a foreign language? The foreign schools I've experienced all
teach English by total immersion - and now you've added Germany where
they do it too. Could this be the reason why the British are so rubbish
at foreign languages and most other Europeans are so good?
Nick
Could be and I may be mis remembering but I had a friend way back who
taught French at Eton with the total immersion system. She was French.
We had a French and a German student at school to do some of the
language classes I think that was for a term in the sixth. I think
some of the teaching by our own teachers was in the language. Mrs
Gabe, the German teacher, was Austrian. I think she spoke English
though some of the time.
Vicky Ayech
2018-08-12 08:31:49 UTC
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 22:21:36 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time.  When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support
any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously:  “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
Yes, I remember the "no negative comments" phase in school Records Of
Achievement.  In some ways it was laudable in that we no longer got
comments like "This pupil is a complete waste of time," which I had
seen in the past and thought completely unacceptable.  However, the
[]
Then there's the old classic "this pupil is trying." [Very trying.]
When my mother taught English in German schools, she had the excuse of
working in a foreign language [although she spoke German fairly well, I
don't _think_ she had ever gained any qualification in it - in those
days, English lessons in German schools were entirely in English!], so
rather relished the ability to be honest rather than having to use
weasel words in her reports. (I suspect she exaggerated this for effect,
and was in fact reasonably kind.)
That's an interesting point - English lessons in English - no, no, hear
me out, serious point on the way.
Are we the only nation that uses our native language as the medium for
teaching a foreign language? The foreign schools I've experienced all
teach English by total immersion - and now you've added Germany where
they do it too. Could this be the reason why the British are so rubbish
at foreign languages and most other Europeans are so good?
Nick
I thought most language schools taught each language in that language.
When we went to Spanish classes in Spain they were in Spanish. All the
students wre from different countries so it would have been impossible
to do it in their ones. Which happens teaching English here. Teaching
English in Spain I spoke English as much as possible. Teaching other
languages here I know that schools talk French for French etc. Private
language schools teach in the language being learned.
Kate B
2018-08-12 12:14:28 UTC
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Post by Penny
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 22:21:36 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time.  When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support
any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously:  “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
Yes, I remember the "no negative comments" phase in school Records Of
Achievement.  In some ways it was laudable in that we no longer got
comments like "This pupil is a complete waste of time," which I had
seen in the past and thought completely unacceptable.  However, the
[]
Then there's the old classic "this pupil is trying." [Very trying.]
When my mother taught English in German schools, she had the excuse of
working in a foreign language [although she spoke German fairly well, I
don't _think_ she had ever gained any qualification in it - in those
days, English lessons in German schools were entirely in English!], so
rather relished the ability to be honest rather than having to use
weasel words in her reports. (I suspect she exaggerated this for effect,
and was in fact reasonably kind.)
That's an interesting point - English lessons in English - no, no, hear
me out, serious point on the way.
Are we the only nation that uses our native language as the medium for
teaching a foreign language? The foreign schools I've experienced all
teach English by total immersion - and now you've added Germany where
they do it too. Could this be the reason why the British are so rubbish
at foreign languages and most other Europeans are so good?
Nick
I thought most language schools taught each language in that language.
When we went to Spanish classes in Spain they were in Spanish. All the
students wre from different countries so it would have been impossible
to do it in their ones. Which happens teaching English here. Teaching
English in Spain I spoke English as much as possible. Teaching other
languages here I know that schools talk French for French etc. Private
language schools teach in the language being learned.
I think language schools will always teach in the particular language
being taught. But that can be next to impossible in schools if you don't
have a native or even fluent speaker teaching. We had a combination of
various reasonably fluent English nuns teaching us grammar and
comprehension, backed up by Madame Plucknett giving us an hour or so of
French Conversation every week - she was very voluble and insisted on us
saying something whatever it was. It worked extremely well for me and
those of my schoolfriends I kept up with - we all have a good accent and
level of practical French. Though my French will never be as good as my
German, which I learnt by total immersion in Austria.
--
Kate B
London
Jenny M Benson
2018-08-12 17:37:29 UTC
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backed up by Madame Plucknett giving us an hour or so of French
Conversation every week - she was very voluble and insisted on us saying
something whatever it was.
When I was studying at Lausanne University my hostess told me to "tell
her a story" every evening so I could practice without feeling
self-conscious about my failures.

we all have a good accent and level of
practical French.
I always knew the "practical French" I should take particular note of,
because Madame, who had teenage sons, would glare and say "Patrice!"
very firmly from time to time!
--
Jenny M Benson
http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/
Chris McMillan
2018-08-13 07:45:53 UTC
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Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Btms
Agreed! I was charged with writing references for applicants once upon a
time.  When I announced I was unsure if my integrity would support
any of
the twenty candidates (bar one), I was advised a little anxiously:  “but
Linda you can’t say anything negative.....” oops.
Yes, I remember the "no negative comments" phase in school Records Of
Achievement.  In some ways it was laudable in that we no longer got
comments like "This pupil is a complete waste of time," which I had
seen in the past and thought completely unacceptable.  However, the
[]
Then there's the old classic "this pupil is trying." [Very trying.]
When my mother taught English in German schools, she had the excuse of
working in a foreign language [although she spoke German fairly well, I
don't _think_ she had ever gained any qualification in it - in those
days, English lessons in German schools were entirely in English!], so
rather relished the ability to be honest rather than having to use
weasel words in her reports. (I suspect she exaggerated this for effect,
and was in fact reasonably kind.)
That's an interesting point - English lessons in English - no, no, hear
me out, serious point on the way.
Are we the only nation that uses our native language as the medium for
teaching a foreign language? The foreign schools I've experienced all
teach English by total immersion - and now you've added Germany where
they do it too. Could this be the reason why the British are so rubbish
at foreign languages and most other Europeans are so good?
Nick
Yes!

Sincerely Chris
LFS
2018-08-11 09:58:03 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Let me make myself 100% clear.  I am completely against student loans.
They have penurious rates of interest.  They limit the individuals
abilities to take other loans preventing buying houses etc.  in many
cases they are spurious having caused all that damage as they get
written off.  They imply debt is "a good thing".  They send all the
wrong signals to those taking them on.
The government then package them up and take a huge capital loss when
selling them into the secondary market.  Which means they might well
pay for the students to go to university in the first place instead of
having a monumental organisation pissing away vast sums of money in
terms of management which would not be needed if we paid simple grants.
Talk about building a debt ridden monument out of a tiny molehill.
<languid wave>
The only thing I would add is that we send far too many people to
university to do useless degrees. The 5% that went in my day was far too
few, the 50% we send today is far too many. IMHO.
Very true.

Redesignating polytechnics as universities was a very bad strategy. The
intention was to get more students to university and to reconfigure the
funding arrangements but much was lost.

Polys were really good at teaching practical, useful subjects. Their
degree programmes had sensible exit points: those who turned out to be
more academically capable than their A level grades had indicated were
able to go on to get good degrees while others could move swiftly into
jobs with qualifications like Higher National Diplomas - and they too
had the opportunity to study at higher levels later if they wanted to
because there were lots of part-time courses. Some lecturers did
research as well, often work relevant to their teaching, but the main
emphasis was on teaching and the quality was very high.

< snip endless rant>
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-11 13:25:40 UTC
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In message <***@mid.individual.net>, LFS
<***@gmail.com> writes:
[]
Post by LFS
Redesignating polytechnics as universities was a very bad strategy. The
intention was to get more students to university and to reconfigure the
(though I never understood why this was thought desirable)
Post by LFS
funding arrangements but much was lost.
Polys were really good at teaching practical, useful subjects. Their
degree programmes had sensible exit points: those who turned out to be
more academically capable than their A level grades had indicated were
able to go on to get good degrees while others could move swiftly into
jobs with qualifications like Higher National Diplomas - and they too
had the opportunity to study at higher levels later if they wanted to
because there were lots of part-time courses. Some lecturers did
research as well, often work relevant to their teaching, but the main
emphasis was on teaching and the quality was very high.
< snip endless rant>
The emphasis on teaching is _so_ important. Even when I was at
university, I thought it was insidious that a lecturer was assessed on
how many papers he produced - as was a university as a whole.
(Oversimplifying, but.) I always thought that, surely, a _major_ part of
the function of even a university is teaching - admittedly not just
knowledge transfer, the infusion of the ability to think and reason is
also important, and other life matters - with research surely as a
_secondary_ aspect. In particular, a lecturer who was _good_ at teaching
but did _not_ produce many (let alone any) papers would not progress, or
at least that's the impression I got.

(I remember one who realised some of us were struggling with his
subject, and offered remedial lectures; I don't think they were too
successful [especially for me], mainly because the subject was _so_
second nature to him that he really struggled to see what we were
struggling with. I have no idea whether he produced lots of papers or
not; what I remember him for was his attempt to teach [even if not too
successful in my case].)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Grief generates a huge energy in you and it's better for everybody if you
harness it to do something. - Judi Dench, RT 2015/2/28-3/6
Fenny
2018-08-11 21:38:59 UTC
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Post by LFS
Post by BrritSki
The only thing I would add is that we send far too many people to
university to do useless degrees. The 5% that went in my day was far too
few, the 50% we send today is far too many. IMHO.
Very true.
Redesignating polytechnics as universities was a very bad strategy. The
intention was to get more students to university and to reconfigure the
funding arrangements but much was lost.
Polys were really good at teaching practical, useful subjects. Their
degree programmes had sensible exit points: those who turned out to be
more academically capable than their A level grades had indicated were
able to go on to get good degrees while others could move swiftly into
jobs with qualifications like Higher National Diplomas - and they too
had the opportunity to study at higher levels later if they wanted to
because there were lots of part-time courses. Some lecturers did
research as well, often work relevant to their teaching, but the main
emphasis was on teaching and the quality was very high.
< snip endless rant>
This is the very reason why I chose to go to a polytechnic for my
degree. I know I made the right choice for me. I also know that at
the end of my first year, I had a better understanding of working in
the real world and how to do things than one of my second year
housemates, who had graduated the year before from Manchester
University with a degree in Management Studies. This was a course I
didn't bother applying for because I didn't think it was what I wanted
to be doing.
--
Fenny
Sid Nuncius
2018-08-11 08:11:08 UTC
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Let me make myself 100% clear.  I am completely against student loans.
They have penurious rates of interest.  They limit the individuals
abilities to take other loans preventing buying houses etc.  in many
cases they are spurious having caused all that damage as they get
written off.  They imply debt is "a good thing".  They send all the
wrong signals to those taking them on.
The government then package them up and take a huge capital loss when
selling them into the secondary market.  Which means they might well pay
for the students to go to university in the first place instead of
having a monumental organisation pissing away vast sums of money in
terms of management which would not be needed if we paid simple grants.
Talk about building a debt ridden monument out of a tiny molehill.
<another languid wave>
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
LFS
2018-08-11 09:44:09 UTC
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Post by krw
as applications are down.
Do you think this is because the cost is simply unrealistic and that
applicants are voting with their feet?  Perhaps all these student loans
are not a sensible solution?
Only just caught up with this.

Student loans never were a sensible solution. If there has been any
effect I think it has been masked to some extent by recruitment from
other countries and the chickens are now coming home to roost as that
has reduced. I thought the apprenticeship scheme might deal a death blow
to degrees in business subjects but I'm not sure what the effect of that
has been.

I'm really quite surprised that no university has yet suffered financial
collapse.
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Mike
2018-08-11 09:50:41 UTC
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Post by LFS
Post by krw
as applications are down.
Do you think this is because the cost is simply unrealistic and that
applicants are voting with their feet?  Perhaps all these student loans
are not a sensible solution?
Only just caught up with this.
Student loans never were a sensible solution. If there has been any
effect I think it has been masked to some extent by recruitment from
other countries and the chickens are now coming home to roost as that
has reduced. I thought the apprenticeship scheme might deal a death blow
to degrees in business subjects but I'm not sure what the effect of that
has been.
I'm really quite surprised that no university has yet suffered financial
collapse.
Possibly eminent? As per recent discussions about value on paper v actual
funds and capital?
--
Toodle Pip
Penny
2018-08-11 10:06:16 UTC
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 10:44:09 +0100, LFS <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by LFS
I'm really quite surprised that no university has yet suffered financial
collapse.
Both those which employ d#1 and her partner are currently going through a
'restructure'. She thinks her job is safe, less sure about his.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Mike
2018-08-11 10:16:45 UTC
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Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by LFS
I'm really quite surprised that no university has yet suffered financial
collapse.
Both those which employ d#1 and her partner are currently going through a
'restructure'. She thinks her job is safe, less sure about his.
I retired just months after redundancies were announced in the Institute of
Education, University of Reading; perhaps if I had not already declared my
wish to retire, I might have been offered a redundancy package. That was
six years ago and more slimming down has taken place since then.
--
Toodle Pip
LFS
2018-08-11 10:19:36 UTC
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Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by LFS
I'm really quite surprised that no university has yet suffered financial
collapse.
Both those which employ d#1 and her partner are currently going through a
'restructure'. She thinks her job is safe, less sure about his.
There's lots of that about, and voluntary redundancy schemes which of
course mean that often the people who are really needed are the ones who
go. I don't think anyone ever really looks at the costs/benefits of the
process. Some spurious numbers are generated to support the fairly
random ideas of senior management.

When potential students' parents started to accompany them to open days
years ago, I used to long for a parent to ask "How much does this course
cost to run?"so that I could suggest that they addressed the question to
someone above my pay grade. No-one knew then and I doubt whether anyone
knows now, when the question would be more pertinent, given the fees
being paid.
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-11 13:35:30 UTC
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In message <***@mid.individual.net>, LFS
<***@gmail.com> writes:
[]
Post by LFS
There's lots of that about, and voluntary redundancy schemes which of
course mean that often the people who are really needed are the ones
who go. I don't think anyone ever really looks at the costs/benefits of
the process. Some spurious numbers are generated to support the fairly
random ideas of senior management.
In industry (well, messybeast anyway), VR schemes involved people
applying, but not necessarily being accepted, for VR. On the whole, they
were, as it was realised that forcing someone to stay on who didn't want
to be there wasn't a good thing, but I do know of people whose
applications weren't accepted. In my own case (I _didn't_ want to go and
didn't apply: I was one of the compulsories that happened when they
didn't get enough volunteers), my best friend there was in two minds;
when he saw how I was treated, and as he'd have to take over my duties,
he applied (he'd been in two minds), but wasn't accepted.
Post by LFS
When potential students' parents started to accompany them to open days
years ago, I used to long for a parent to ask "How much does this
course cost to run?"so that I could suggest that they addressed the
question to someone above my pay grade. No-one knew then and I doubt
whether anyone knows now, when the question would be more pertinent,
given the fees being paid.
Very good point.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Grief generates a huge energy in you and it's better for everybody if you
harness it to do something. - Judi Dench, RT 2015/2/28-3/6
Sam Plusnet
2018-08-11 15:45:12 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by LFS
There's lots of that about, and voluntary redundancy schemes which of
course mean that often the people who are really needed are the ones
who go. I don't think anyone ever really looks at the costs/benefits
of the process. Some spurious numbers are generated to support the
fairly random ideas of senior management.
In industry (well, messybeast anyway), VR schemes involved people
applying, but not necessarily being accepted, for VR. On the whole, they
were, as it was realised that forcing someone to stay on who didn't want
to be there wasn't a good thing, but I do know of people whose
applications weren't accepted. In my own case (I _didn't_ want to go and
didn't apply: I was one of the compulsories that happened when they
didn't get enough volunteers), my best friend there was in two minds;
when he saw how I was treated, and as he'd have to take over my duties,
he applied (he'd been in two minds), but wasn't accepted.
I do wonder if some companies would offer VR, & then reject everyone who
applies.
They then do compulsory redundancies, entirely from the ranks of those
who did not volunteer.
--
Sam Plusnet
Vicky Ayech
2018-08-11 16:54:02 UTC
Reply
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by LFS
There's lots of that about, and voluntary redundancy schemes which of
course mean that often the people who are really needed are the ones
who go. I don't think anyone ever really looks at the costs/benefits
of the process. Some spurious numbers are generated to support the
fairly random ideas of senior management.
In industry (well, messybeast anyway), VR schemes involved people
applying, but not necessarily being accepted, for VR. On the whole, they
were, as it was realised that forcing someone to stay on who didn't want
to be there wasn't a good thing, but I do know of people whose
applications weren't accepted. In my own case (I _didn't_ want to go and
didn't apply: I was one of the compulsories that happened when they
didn't get enough volunteers), my best friend there was in two minds;
when he saw how I was treated, and as he'd have to take over my duties,
he applied (he'd been in two minds), but wasn't accepted.
I do wonder if some companies would offer VR, & then reject everyone who
applies.
They then do compulsory redundancies, entirely from the ranks of those
who did not volunteer.
My college offered VR but kept turning me down. They did select some
people.
Chris J Dixon
2018-08-14 05:08:04 UTC
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Post by Vicky Ayech
My college offered VR but kept turning me down. They did select some
people.
My boss tried for VR, which would have paid very well, but was
refused. Within weeks the department was closed, all of us
declared redundant. We thought he had a good case for fighting
for a better payout, but that wasn't his way.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk
Plant amazing Acers.
Rosemary Miskin
2018-07-26 17:08:37 UTC
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I wish that BBC would give a link to the primary source when reporting 
items like this
According to the DT, it is a UCAS statement.

Rosemary
the Omrud
2018-07-26 14:51:02 UTC
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Post by DavidK
The BBC has a page <https://www.bbc.com/news/education-44954154>
reporting a 20-fold increase in unconditional offers from universities.
There was no place to ask questions or make comments but there were
links to Facebook, Twitter, and other social media mechanisms.
I have a facebook account with, quite deliberately, no friends. Does
this mean that when I replied to the article using the facebook link
no-one can see my comment; or is there some page on Facebook that I
can't find where all comments on the article are visible?
I do use FB but I have also opted out of all integration so I get this
message "User opted out of platform: The action attempted is disallowed,
because the user has opted out of Facebook platform."

I suspect the link would only allow you to share the story and then to
discuss it with your friends. It's not a route to a general discussion
area.
--
David
Vicky Ayech
2018-07-26 17:19:28 UTC
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Post by DavidK
The BBC has a page <https://www.bbc.com/news/education-44954154>
reporting a 20-fold increase in unconditional offers from universities.
There was no place to ask questions or make comments but there were
links to Facebook, Twitter, and other social media mechanisms.
I have a facebook account with, quite deliberately, no friends. Does
this mean that when I replied to the article using the facebook link
no-one can see my comment; or is there some page on Facebook that I
can't find where all comments on the article are visible?
If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
Sam Plusnet
2018-07-28 18:11:11 UTC
Reply
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Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by DavidK
The BBC has a page <https://www.bbc.com/news/education-44954154>
reporting a 20-fold increase in unconditional offers from universities.
There was no place to ask questions or make comments but there were
links to Facebook, Twitter, and other social media mechanisms.
I have a facebook account with, quite deliberately, no friends. Does
this mean that when I replied to the article using the facebook link
no-one can see my comment; or is there some page on Facebook that I
can't find where all comments on the article are visible?
If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
--
Sam Plusnet
Fenny
2018-07-28 20:26:21 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Vicky Ayech
If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
Somebody will denounce it as FAKE NEWS!!!
--
Fenny
John Ashby
2018-07-28 21:11:32 UTC
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Post by Fenny
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Vicky Ayech
If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
Somebody will denounce it as FAKE NEWS!!!
Only if it's a cherry tree.

john
Mike
2018-07-29 08:14:42 UTC
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Post by John Ashby
Post by Fenny
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Vicky Ayech
If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
Somebody will denounce it as FAKE NEWS!!!
Only if it's a cherry tree.
john
Don’t believe what its’ fruits tell you - they’re stoned.
--
Toodle Pip
krw
2018-08-05 17:15:56 UTC
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Post by John Ashby
Post by Fenny
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Vicky Ayech
If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
Somebody will denounce it as FAKE NEWS!!!
Only if it's a cherry tree.
john
And just when did Adam and Brian plant cherry trees - I have no
recollection of them doing anything other than polytunnels.

And what has happened to flogging strawberries at markets after all Low
Mead cost them a major buyer and Adam was only able to find a partial
replacement?

And when did they last sell any venison or took the fishing lake money
(an obvious job for Freddie).
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Mike
2018-08-05 17:53:40 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by John Ashby
Post by Fenny
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Vicky Ayech
If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
Somebody will denounce it as FAKE NEWS!!!
Only if it's a cherry tree.
john
And just when did Adam and Brian plant cherry trees - I have no
recollection of them doing anything other than polytunnels.
And what has happened to flogging strawberries at markets after all Low
Mead cost them a major buyer and Adam was only able to find a partial
replacement?
And when did they last sell any venison or took the fishing lake money
(an obvious job for Freddie).
Would have been a good ‘outlet’ for Freddie’s ‘other interest’ too!
--
Toodle Pip
Btms
2018-08-05 18:26:26 UTC
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Post by Mike
Post by krw
Post by John Ashby
Post by Fenny
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Vicky Ayech
If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
Somebody will denounce it as FAKE NEWS!!!
Only if it's a cherry tree.
john
And just when did Adam and Brian plant cherry trees - I have no
recollection of them doing anything other than polytunnels.
And what has happened to flogging strawberries at markets after all Low
Mead cost them a major buyer and Adam was only able to find a partial
replacement?
And when did they last sell any venison or took the fishing lake money
(an obvious job for Freddie).
Would have been a good ‘outlet’ for Freddie’s ‘other interest’ too!
I,ho Freddie has a track record of. Ei g a bit lazy or work-shy as some
say. He may have management potential if there are enough folk to
compensate for his lack of contribution.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-29 22:59:05 UTC
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[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Vicky Ayech
If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Today you wonder if the media has become the opposition - it's become the
political classes against 24-hour media.
Jon Culshaw [voice impressionist], in RT 2015/4/11-17
Sid Nuncius
2018-07-30 06:29:05 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by an
observer. Perhaps this is the origin of the Egyptian god Bastet?

I'll get me shendyt.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-30 12:42:14 UTC
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Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
Post by Sid Nuncius
an observer. Perhaps this is the origin of the Egyptian god Bastet?
I'll get me shendyt.
(-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"If even one person" arguments allow the perfect to become the enemy of the
good, and thus they tend to cause more harm than good.
- Jimmy Akins quoted by Scott Adams, 2015-5-5
the Omrud
2018-07-30 12:55:47 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
--
David
BrritSki
2018-07-30 13:08:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Sid Nuncius
2018-07-30 18:03:41 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
agsmith578688@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
2018-07-30 18:21:11 UTC
Reply
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Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Or over two pi(e)s
Sid Nuncius
2018-07-30 18:30:37 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
Or over two pi(e)s
They're an inclusive offer in the h-bar.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Btms
2018-07-30 19:24:42 UTC
Reply
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Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
Or over two pi(e)s
They're an inclusive offer in the h-bar.
Are you being clever again?
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Jim Easterbrook
2018-07-30 19:26:42 UTC
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Post by Btms
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God
is Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
Or over two pi(e)s
They're an inclusive offer in the h-bar.
Are you being clever again?
Can a continuous state be described as "again"?
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
Btms
2018-07-30 20:24:13 UTC
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Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by Btms
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God
is Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
Or over two pi(e)s
They're an inclusive offer in the h-bar.
Are you being clever again?
Can a continuous state be described as "again"?
Point taken.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
BrritSki
2018-07-31 06:50:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by Btms
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God
is Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
Or over two pi(e)s
They're an inclusive offer in the h-bar.
Are you being clever again?
Can a continuous state be described as "again"?
:)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-30 19:26:49 UTC
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Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
Or over two pi(e)s
They're an inclusive offer in the h-bar.
Thick as two short Plancks, some people ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013
RC Mitchell
2018-07-30 22:20:32 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
Post by Sid Nuncius
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
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[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
Or over two pi(e)s
They're an inclusive offer in the h-bar.
Thick as two short Plancks, some people ...
Or intoxicated by too many Ferminted beverages.

Rosàlainn nic Theàrlach
Sid Nuncius
2018-07-31 06:23:08 UTC
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Post by RC Mitchell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
Or over two pi(e)s
They're an inclusive offer in the h-bar.
Thick as two short Plancks, some people ...
Or intoxicated by too many Ferminted beverages.
The type of pub Bohrs who Mietner-ver sober up?
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
RC Mitchell
2018-07-30 22:17:00 UTC
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Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
 If you have no friends and posted it to your own facebook page, and
are set to post to friends only, nobody will see it.
If a tree falls in the forest...
God is in the quad ...
Presumably, God is both in the quad and not in the quad until seen by
Ah - the loop is closed, and we have a unified field theory: God is
Schrödinger's cat!
But can you measure how fast he's travelling?
Not yet, but his arrival is immanent.
Perhaps we could discuss it in the h-bar, over two beers.
Or over two pi(e)s
They're an inclusive offer in the h-bar.
The Schrödinger h-bar was the corner of the Sphinx Bar in the Liverpool
Union that the physicists used to gather in. The Sphinx Bar was defunct
when I went to have a look at the Union building a few years ago, as was
just about everything else. The spaces that used to foster impromptu
debates and political meetings were all taken over by various food
franchises, relatively much more expensive than the cheap and cheerful
"caff" of old. There were no more quiet lounges with leather armchairs
to retreat to in the Old Union part of the building – it was basically
established as a gentleman's club for the gentlemanly students of the
School of Tropical Medicine after all – and the legendary Reilly Bar
which did a fine bacon butty and had an atmosphere so laden with the
intoxicating fragrance of smouldering herbs that one deep breath put you
in the right mood for the forthcoming lectures, was gone along with the
barber and the hairdresser, the newspaper office, the football tables
(so essential to physicists on lab afternoon as they waited for the
technicians to set up the kit), the shop, the fag machine, the ticket
office, and just about everything else that made one's studency
reasonably bearable.

It would seem that today's students have no fun at all. One wonders why
they bother to go to Uni at all.

Rosàlainn nic Theàrlach
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