Discussion:
Jolene, Jolene, Jolene Joleeeen
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Vicky
2017-02-22 09:38:11 UTC
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Is Jolene the witch of Ambridge, not Carol? Or are they in a coven
together? I'm a bit hazy on the times and people. Kathy was married
when she came to Ambridge, I think? To a policemen. That ended, she
stayed, was a domestic science teacher and got together with Sid.She
moved in.They married? Or did they? They had Jamie. Kathy stopped
teaching and did food for The Bull.

Sid met Jolene who stole him away. Kathy and Jamie moved out, she got
a job being bullied at GG. Jolene moved into the shower and The Bull.
Did they marry? She managed to dispose of Sid in Australia. She
inherited management of The Bull. Did Sid have a half share and she
got that too? What about Lucy? And Jamie?

Kathy met Kenton and he moved in. Jolene stole HIM too! She let him
move into The Bull and then took him to Australia to dispose of but it
turned out he hadn't yet got a share of Brookfield and might not as
had had money before. So Jolene let him come home. He needed a big
sum of money. Why? Was it the Oz trip? David got a mortgage to fund
that and did Kenton then spend more on something instead of paying
David back? Where did Kenton get the money?

What is Jamie up to now? Wasn't he the same age as Daniel? Would he be
a good match of Anisha? Or what about Pip? They are not related, are
they. And what about Johnny and Lily as a match? Or when she comes
back Johnny and Phoebe?

Did Josh do O Levels? Or is he now the age for A Levels? We haven't
heard from Lilian's horrible son and Robert's horrible daughter for
ages. James could come back and have an affair with Anisha.
--
Vicky
vk
2017-02-22 09:52:44 UTC
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Post by Vicky
Is Jolene the witch of Ambridge, not Carol? Or are they in a coven
together? I'm a bit hazy on the times and people. Kathy was married
when she came to Ambridge, I think? To a policemen. That ended, she
stayed, was a domestic science teacher and got together with Sid.She
moved in.They married? Or did they? They had Jamie. Kathy stopped
teaching and did food for The Bull.
Sid met Jolene who stole him away. Kathy and Jamie moved out, she got
a job being bullied at GG. Jolene moved into the shower and The Bull.
Did they marry? She managed to dispose of Sid in Australia. She
inherited management of The Bull. Did Sid have a half share and she
got that too? What about Lucy? And Jamie?
Kathy met Kenton and he moved in. Jolene stole HIM too! She let him
move into The Bull and then took him to Australia to dispose of but it
turned out he hadn't yet got a share of Brookfield and might not as
had had money before. So Jolene let him come home. He needed a big
sum of money. Why? Was it the Oz trip? David got a mortgage to fund
that and did Kenton then spend more on something instead of paying
David back? Where did Kenton get the money?
What is Jamie up to now? Wasn't he the same age as Daniel? Would he be
a good match of Anisha? Or what about Pip? They are not related, are
they. And what about Johnny and Lily as a match? Or when she comes
back Johnny and Phoebe?
Did Josh do O Levels? Or is he now the age for A Levels? We haven't
heard from Lilian's horrible son and Robert's horrible daughter for
ages. James could come back and have an affair with Anisha.
I'll have whatever she's having :)
krw
2017-02-22 12:14:36 UTC
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Post by Vicky
Is Jolene the witch of Ambridge, not Carol? Or are they in a coven
together? I'm a bit hazy on the times and people. Kathy was married
when she came to Ambridge, I think? To a policemen. That ended, she
stayed, was a domestic science teacher and got together with Sid.She
moved in.They married? Or did they? They had Jamie. Kathy stopped
teaching and did food for The Bull.
Sid met Jolene who stole him away. Kathy and Jamie moved out, she got
a job being bullied at GG. Jolene moved into the shower and The Bull.
Did they marry? She managed to dispose of Sid in Australia. She
inherited management of The Bull. Did Sid have a half share and she
got that too? What about Lucy? And Jamie?
Kathy met Kenton and he moved in. Jolene stole HIM too! She let him
move into The Bull and then took him to Australia to dispose of but it
turned out he hadn't yet got a share of Brookfield and might not as
had had money before. So Jolene let him come home. He needed a big
sum of money. Why? Was it the Oz trip? David got a mortgage to fund
that and did Kenton then spend more on something instead of paying
David back? Where did Kenton get the money?
What is Jamie up to now? Wasn't he the same age as Daniel? Would he be
a good match of Anisha? Or what about Pip? They are not related, are
they. And what about Johnny and Lily as a match? Or when she comes
back Johnny and Phoebe?
Did Josh do O Levels? Or is he now the age for A Levels? We haven't
heard from Lilian's horrible son and Robert's horrible daughter for
ages. James could come back and have an affair with Anisha.
I will try and answer. It will take some time.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
krw
2017-02-22 12:52:58 UTC
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Post by Vicky
Is Jolene the witch of Ambridge, not Carol? Or are they in a coven
together? I'm a bit hazy on the times and people. Kathy was married
when she came to Ambridge, I think? To a policemen.
Kathy arrived in the village married to Steve Holland but that was
already over. She was Lucy's teacher and rented Sid's retirement
cottage. She then met and had an affair with Dave Barry (the policeman)
and her divorce came through. Then she became a close friend of Pat.
And then she and Sid became closer. After a couple of years the Perks
were having rows and Lucy was being difficult. And she and Dave Barry
met up at Nelson's wine bar and the affair started. This went on for
some time and she went to work at Grey Gables Health club to get away
from the Bull where she was cooking having left teaching when various
schools were amalgamated. Lucy had known about the affair all along and
Sid disappeared when a Valentine card came. Sid came back 6 weeks later
and ordered Kathy out of the Bull. She admitted the affair. Months
later they eventually got back together - but it was never the same.

So when Sid did decide to get fit and met Jolene and so on it was only a
reflection that it had been broken for a long time.

That ended, she
Post by Vicky
stayed, was a domestic science teacher and got together with Sid.She
moved in.They married? Or did they? They had Jamie. Kathy stopped
teaching and did food for The Bull.
Sid met Jolene who stole him away. Kathy and Jamie moved out, she got
a job being bullied at GG. Jolene moved into the shower and The Bull.
Did they marry?
Sid and Jolene were married.

She managed to dispose of Sid in Australia. She
Post by Vicky
inherited management of The Bull. Did Sid have a half share and she
got that too?
Sid and Guy Pemberton bought the Bull from Peggy years earlier and
Caroline inherited Guy's share when he died. She later needed to sell
her share so she could buy Gray Gables and sold it on to Lilian. Sid
left a small share to Jamie but Jolene got the rest. The share owned by
Jamie appears to have been forgotten. I think Lucy was omitted.

What about Lucy? And Jamie?
Post by Vicky
Kathy met Kenton and he moved in. Jolene stole HIM too!
Not really - it was over with Kenton before the rape and before he got
together with Jolene.

She let him
Post by Vicky
move into The Bull and then took him to Australia to dispose of but it
turned out he hadn't yet got a share of Brookfield and might not as
had had money before. So Jolene let him come home. He needed a big
sum of money. Why? Was it the Oz trip?
No - the second flood turned out that the insurance would not pay for
the repairs to the foundations as they had been damaged previously and
it had not been sorted. I actually think the insurance company would
still have paid up. Kenton went on a spending spree because he was
going to get money from the Brookfield sale so he took Jolene to NZ and
Aus - spending before the non-inheritance came through.

David got a mortgage to fund
Post by Vicky
that and did Kenton then spend more on something instead of paying
David back?
David did not get a mortgage - he merely un-deposited some money he had
tied up and helped fund the Bull repairs. Kenton has repaid everyone
else in the family - but David's share was much larger than Lizzie,
Shulie or Jillie's money and so the small debts have been sorted first
(rather than in proportion.

Where did Kenton get the money?

With Wayne cooking in place of Freda the food take up and the constant
promotions and the non-employment of Clarrie and Nic (when did you last
hear them doing shifts) has made the Bull better at generating cash -
must be the internet cafe bringing in the money! Kenton bought a car on
the never-never when out looking at cars with Lizzie recently and David
was upset that Kenton was spending more money rather than paying him back.
Post by Vicky
What is Jamie up to now?
Working as a woodsman on the Berrow estate.

Wasn't he the same age as Daniel?

Born 20.7.95, so he is 21. Daniel born 14.11.94, so 22.

Would he be
Post by Vicky
a good match of Anisha?
Anisha as a qualified vet with some years in practice must be about 30.

Or what about Pip?

No relation to Pip.

They are not related, are
Post by Vicky
they. And what about Johnny and Lily as a match? Or when she comes
back Johnny and Phoebe?
Phoebe will not want to be tied down to a farm worker once she has
finished PPE - she will be off to Westminster. Lily similar.
Post by Vicky
Did Josh do O Levels? Or is he now the age for A Levels?
Josh did his A levels last year and is doing a gap year.

We haven't
Post by Vicky
heard from Lilian's horrible son and Robert's horrible daughter for
ages.
Correct. Parenthood might have made them more normal.

James could come back and have an affair with Anisha.
James was born in 1973, so is 44 next month. So a possibility - but
unlikely I suggest.
Does that help?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
carolet
2017-02-22 13:14:31 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Vicky
Is Jolene the witch of Ambridge, not Carol? Or are they in a coven
together? I'm a bit hazy on the times and people. Kathy was married
when she came to Ambridge, I think? To a policemen.
Kathy arrived in the village married to Steve Holland but that was
already over. She was Lucy's teacher and rented Sid's retirement
cottage. She then met and had an affair with Dave Barry (the policeman)
and her divorce came through. Then she became a close friend of Pat.
And then she and Sid became closer. After a couple of years the Perks
were having rows and Lucy was being difficult. And she and Dave Barry
met up at Nelson's wine bar and the affair started. This went on for
some time and she went to work at Grey Gables Health club to get away
from the Bull where she was cooking having left teaching when various
schools were amalgamated. Lucy had known about the affair all along and
Sid disappeared when a Valentine card came. Sid came back 6 weeks later
and ordered Kathy out of the Bull. She admitted the affair. Months
later they eventually got back together - but it was never the same.
That would be because Jamie arrived.
--
CaroleT


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Vicky
2017-02-22 13:28:52 UTC
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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 12:52:58 +0000, krw <***@whitnet.uk> wrote:

Thank you. I should keep this for reference so when i forget it all by
next week...:)
Post by krw
Kathy arrived in the village married to Steve Holland but that was
already over. She was Lucy's teacher and rented Sid's retirement
cottage. She then met and had an affair with Dave Barry (the policeman)
and her divorce came through. Then she became a close friend of Pat.
And then she and Sid became closer. After a couple of years the Perks
You say the Perks so they got married?
Post by krw
were having rows and Lucy was being difficult. And she and Dave Barry
met up at Nelson's wine bar and the affair started. This went on for
some time and she went to work at Grey Gables Health club to get away
from the Bull where she was cooking having left teaching when various
schools were amalgamated. Lucy had known about the affair all along and
Sid disappeared when a Valentine card came. Sid came back 6 weeks later
and ordered Kathy out of the Bull. She admitted the affair. Months
later they eventually got back together - but it was never the same.
So the split was partly Kathy's fault. Or they were not getting on and
she had the first affair. She always sounded so virtuous, but that is
Dave, Sid and Kenton, not all one after the other.
Post by krw
So when Sid did decide to get fit and met Jolene and so on it was only a
reflection that it had been broken for a long time.
That ended, she
Post by Vicky
stayed, was a domestic science teacher and got together with Sid.She
moved in.They married? Or did they? They had Jamie. Kathy stopped
teaching and did food for The Bull.
Sid met Jolene who stole him away. Kathy and Jamie moved out, she got
a job being bullied at GG. Jolene moved into the shower and The Bull.
Did they marry?
Sid and Jolene were married.
She managed to dispose of Sid in Australia. She
Post by Vicky
inherited management of The Bull. Did Sid have a half share and she
got that too?
Sid and Guy Pemberton bought the Bull from Peggy years earlier and
Caroline inherited Guy's share when he died. She later needed to sell
her share so she could buy Gray Gables and sold it on to Lilian. Sid
left a small share to Jamie but Jolene got the rest. The share owned by
Jamie appears to have been forgotten. I think Lucy was omitted.
What about Lucy? And Jamie?
Post by Vicky
Kathy met Kenton and he moved in. Jolene stole HIM too!
Not really - it was over with Kenton before the rape and before he got
together with Jolene.
I thought when Kathy was raped Jolene was with Sid? And Sid went over
to comfort her and got rid of the rapist, Owen?
Post by krw
No - the second flood turned out that the insurance would not pay for
the repairs to the foundations as they had been damaged previously and
it had not been sorted. I actually think the insurance company would
still have paid up. Kenton went on a spending spree because he was
going to get money from the Brookfield sale so he took Jolene to NZ and
Aus - spending before the non-inheritance came through.
Ah yes, the Brookfield sale. That was how Kenton was to get money,
although we all thought less than he expected. But I remember that
now.
Post by krw
David got a mortgage to fund
Post by Vicky
that and did Kenton then spend more on something instead of paying
David back?
David did not get a mortgage - he merely un-deposited some money he had
tied up and helped fund the Bull repairs. Kenton has repaid everyone
else in the family - but David's share was much larger than Lizzie,
Shulie or Jillie's money and so the small debts have been sorted first
(rather than in proportion.
Where did Kenton get the money?
With Wayne cooking in place of Freda the food take up and the constant
promotions and the non-employment of Clarrie and Nic (when did you last
hear them doing shifts) has made the Bull better at generating cash -
must be the internet cafe bringing in the money! Kenton bought a car on
the never-never when out looking at cars with Lizzie recently and David
was upset that Kenton was spending more money rather than paying him back.
Post by Vicky
What is Jamie up to now?
Working as a woodsman on the Berrow estate.
Wasn't he the same age as Daniel?
Born 20.7.95, so he is 21. Daniel born 14.11.94, so 22.
Would he be
Post by Vicky
a good match of Anisha?
Anisha as a qualified vet with some years in practice must be about 30.
Or what about Pip?
No relation to Pip.
They are not related, are
Post by Vicky
they. And what about Johnny and Lily as a match? Or when she comes
back Johnny and Phoebe?
Phoebe will not want to be tied down to a farm worker once she has
finished PPE - she will be off to Westminster. Lily similar.
Post by Vicky
Did Josh do O Levels? Or is he now the age for A Levels?
Josh did his A levels last year and is doing a gap year.
We haven't
Post by Vicky
heard from Lilian's horrible son and Robert's horrible daughter for
ages.
Correct. Parenthood might have made them more normal.
James could come back and have an affair with Anisha.
James was born in 1973, so is 44 next month. So a possibility - but
unlikely I suggest.
Does that help?
That really was very helpful, thanks.
--
Vicky
krw
2017-02-22 13:40:36 UTC
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Post by Vicky
You say the Perks so they got married?
Yes - Sid and Kathy.
Post by Vicky
So the split was partly Kathy's fault. Or they were not getting on and
she had the first affair. She always sounded so virtuous, but that is
Dave, Sid and Kenton, not all one after the other.
You missed the first husband - Steve Holland as she was originally Mrs
Holland the teacher.

Dave and Sid overlapped. Kenton was later. I think Sid having the
affair with Jolene was partly driven by the latter finding the new
fitter Sid attractive - and who knows what drives affairs? After Sid
and Kathy got together again they did have Jamie - so things were pretty
good for quite a while.
Post by Vicky
Post by Vicky
Sid met Jolene who stole him away. Kathy and Jamie moved out, she got
a job being bullied at GG.
Correction needed. The bullying was much later when Kathy was working
for the golf club as manager. One of the BL Board was not bullying her
- that was a misconception. She was not doing her job well, had not
spotted the bar (manager / staff) fiddling the takings, was running
unapproved promotions and not driving business with suitable events. He
cautioned her to do her job better - but she could not see how she was
letting the members down and decided to take up employment at GG again
after Roy left to join Lizzie at Lower Loxley. Some people accused him
of bullying - but that was unfair - he kept demonstrating she was not
doing the job properly.
Post by Vicky
I thought when Kathy was raped Jolene was with Sid? And Sid went over
to comfort her and got rid of the rapist, Owen?
Correct. I am not entirely sure that Sid ever stopped having feelings
for Kathy and felt partly responsible in that if he had not had the
affair she would not have been single and raped. So he provided some
support to her. But I think Kenton helped her through the court case.
Sid helping Kathy was regularly a problem for Jolene although usually
dressed up as assisting Jamie.
Post by Vicky
That really was very helpful, thanks.
And a few more titbits above!
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Vicky
2017-02-22 18:27:57 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Vicky
Sid met Jolene who stole him away. Kathy and Jamie moved out, she got
a job being bullied at GG.
Correction needed. The bullying was much later when Kathy was working
for the golf club as manager. One of the BL Board was not bullying her
- that was a misconception. She was not doing her job well, had not
spotted the bar (manager / staff) fiddling the takings, was running
unapproved promotions and not driving business with suitable events. He
cautioned her to do her job better - but she could not see how she was
letting the members down and decided to take up employment at GG again
after Roy left to join Lizzie at Lower Loxley. Some people accused him
of bullying - but that was unfair - he kept demonstrating she was not
doing the job properly.
Naughty, naughty! And you have been so good for weeks now :)
--
Vicky
krw
2017-02-22 18:41:01 UTC
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Post by Vicky
Post by krw
Post by Vicky
Sid met Jolene who stole him away. Kathy and Jamie moved out, she got
a job being bullied at GG.
Correction needed. The bullying was much later when Kathy was working
for the golf club as manager. One of the BL Board was not bullying her
- that was a misconception. She was not doing her job well, had not
spotted the bar (manager / staff) fiddling the takings, was running
unapproved promotions and not driving business with suitable events. He
cautioned her to do her job better - but she could not see how she was
letting the members down and decided to take up employment at GG again
after Roy left to join Lizzie at Lower Loxley. Some people accused him
of bullying - but that was unfair - he kept demonstrating she was not
doing the job properly.
Naughty, naughty! And you have been so good for weeks now :)
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling. There was one instance where he was
unreasonable over wanting a report in an unfair timescale but otherwise
he was ensuring that an employee did her job better and stopped the
losses the club were encountering.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Mike McMillan
2017-02-22 18:50:43 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Vicky
Post by krw
Post by Vicky
Sid met Jolene who stole him away. Kathy and Jamie moved out, she got
a job being bullied at GG.
Correction needed. The bullying was much later when Kathy was working
for the golf club as manager. One of the BL Board was not bullying her
- that was a misconception. She was not doing her job well, had not
spotted the bar (manager / staff) fiddling the takings, was running
unapproved promotions and not driving business with suitable events. He
cautioned her to do her job better - but she could not see how she was
letting the members down and decided to take up employment at GG again
after Roy left to join Lizzie at Lower Loxley. Some people accused him
of bullying - but that was unfair - he kept demonstrating she was not
doing the job properly.
Naughty, naughty! And you have been so good for weeks now :)
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling. There was one instance where he was
unreasonable over wanting a report in an unfair timescale but otherwise
he was ensuring that an employee did her job better and stopped the
losses the club were encountering.
He was also involved in 'expenses' that he unjustly claimed though.
--
Toodle Pip
krw
2017-02-22 19:26:23 UTC
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Post by Mike McMillan
He was also involved in 'expenses' that he unjustly claimed though.
As I recall he was asking the club to meet costs of him undertaking his
investigations by watching how drinks were sold and then the relevant
payments or refreshment whilst in a meeting. Got Kathy off the
immediate hook - but it might well have been legal if approved by other
committee members as necessary to discover the illegal events.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
steveski
2017-02-23 01:09:46 UTC
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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:41:01 +0000, krw wrote:

[snip Kathy at the club]
Post by krw
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling.
Yebbut, it was the *way* Martin (Gibson?) did it - he was really nasty.
--
Steveski
krw
2017-02-23 08:04:52 UTC
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Post by steveski
[snip Kathy at the club]
Post by krw
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling.
Yebbut, it was the *way* Martin (Gibson?) did it - he was really nasty.
Nope it was the way Kathy did not get on with her job and the way she
interpreted it. He knew somethign was wrong and the manager was not
really showing any interest in sorting it out.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Mike McMillan
2017-02-23 08:50:49 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by steveski
[snip Kathy at the club]
Post by krw
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling.
Yebbut, it was the *way* Martin (Gibson?) did it - he was really nasty.
Nope it was the way Kathy did not get on with her job and the way she
interpreted it. He knew somethign was wrong and the manager was not
really showing any interest in sorting it out.
He was still very nasty!
--
Toodle Pip
Btms
2017-02-23 09:03:05 UTC
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Post by Mike McMillan
Post by krw
Post by steveski
[snip Kathy at the club]
Post by krw
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling.
Yebbut, it was the *way* Martin (Gibson?) did it - he was really nasty.
Nope it was the way Kathy did not get on with her job and the way she
interpreted it. He knew somethign was wrong and the manager was not
really showing any interest in sorting it out.
He was still very nasty!
Indeed he was. Bit like real life; not a clear cut right/wrong scenario.

With a bit of a swerve, I found it surprising that Kathy had the job at
all. I would have thought a place like that would have required a more
relevant professional background and business acumen.
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
Vicky
2017-02-23 09:50:44 UTC
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Post by Btms
With a bit of a swerve, I found it surprising that Kathy had the job at
all. I would have thought a place like that would have required a more
relevant professional background and business acumen.
Well, she had domestic science qualifications and teaching ones. She
was local and presumably it was easier to employ someone already in
the area, who wouldn't have to uproot themselves. Could the job have
come with accommodation? She seems to be doing ok at the higher level
job of managing the hotel now. Who is assistant and who is manager?
Was Roy there as receptionist before Caroline went away, but Kathy was
assistant manager? So did he then go over her head as manager?
--
Vicky
krw
2017-02-23 13:53:03 UTC
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Post by Vicky
She seems to be doing ok at the higher level
job of managing the hotel now. Who is assistant and who is manager?
Was Roy there as receptionist before Caroline went away, but Kathy was
assistant manager? So did he then go over her head as manager?
Kathy is manager

Roy is deputy

Kirsty runs the health club and lacks qualifications.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Btms
2017-02-23 19:48:17 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Vicky
She seems to be doing ok at the higher level
job of managing the hotel now. Who is assistant and who is manager?
Was Roy there as receptionist before Caroline went away, but Kathy was
assistant manager? So did he then go over her head as manager?
Kathy is manager
Roy is deputy
Kirsty runs the health club and lacks qualifications.
Oh yes rhat as well.
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
krw
2017-02-23 13:52:06 UTC
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Post by Btms
I would have thought a place like that would have required a more
relevant professional background and business acumen.
Given the years spent running the Bull she was actually a good fit - but
was not doing it well.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Btms
2017-02-23 19:48:16 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Btms
I would have thought a place like that would have required a more
relevant professional background and business acumen.
Given the years spent running the Bull she was actually a good fit - but
was not doing it well.
I think there is a huge gap between the two roles. I say, a gap, not a
void. There is much more to it than a bar with pub grub.
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
Serena Blanchflower
2017-02-24 10:24:52 UTC
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On 22/02/2017 18:41, krw, talking about when Kathy was working at the
Post by krw
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling. There was one instance where he was
unreasonable over wanting a report in an unfair timescale but otherwise
he was ensuring that an employee did her job better and stopped the
losses the club were encountering.
I agree with you that she hadn't been doing her job well, come to that,
Kathy acknowledged that herself. That didn't alter the fact that, IMO,
Martin was definitely bullying her. Even if you disagree with that
assessment, it was a very poor management technique as, rather than
helping Kathy to improve, he reduced her to a jelly and left her far
less able to work effectively.
--
Best wishes, Serena
Behind every successful man is a surprised woman (Maryon Pearson)
krw
2017-02-24 11:49:03 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Serena Blanchflower
On 22/02/2017 18:41, krw, talking about when Kathy was working at the
Post by krw
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling. There was one instance where he was
unreasonable over wanting a report in an unfair timescale but otherwise
he was ensuring that an employee did her job better and stopped the
losses the club were encountering.
I agree with you that she hadn't been doing her job well, come to that,
Kathy acknowledged that herself. That didn't alter the fact that, IMO,
Martin was definitely bullying her. Even if you disagree with that
assessment, it was a very poor management technique as, rather than
helping Kathy to improve, he reduced her to a jelly and left her far
less able to work effectively.
I disagree - he told what was wrong and which she had not spotted. She
then failed to keep him advised and went off implementing a promotion
and keeping him informed as to the basis of the benefits it would bring.

If she had worked with him rather than against him she would have
achieved the desired result. She did not try and get her manager onside
- she almost deliberately antagonised him - especially as he was right!

Telling someone to do their job properly is not bullying. It is
management and the modern belief that issuing instructions is tantamount
to bullying is something which I came across before I retired and can
cause a lot of unfair criticism.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Btms
2017-02-24 14:19:50 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by krw
Post by Serena Blanchflower
On 22/02/2017 18:41, krw, talking about when Kathy was working at the
Post by krw
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling. There was one instance where he was
unreasonable over wanting a report in an unfair timescale but otherwise
he was ensuring that an employee did her job better and stopped the
losses the club were encountering.
I agree with you that she hadn't been doing her job well, come to that,
Kathy acknowledged that herself. That didn't alter the fact that, IMO,
Martin was definitely bullying her. Even if you disagree with that
assessment, it was a very poor management technique as, rather than
helping Kathy to improve, he reduced her to a jelly and left her far
less able to work effectively.
I disagree - he told what was wrong and which she had not spotted. She
then failed to keep him advised and went off implementing a promotion
and keeping him informed as to the basis of the benefits it would bring.
If she had worked with him rather than against him she would have
achieved the desired result. She did not try and get her manager onside
- she almost deliberately antagonised him - especially as he was right!
Telling someone to do their job properly is not bullying. It is
management and the modern belief that issuing instructions is tantamount
to bullying is something which I came across before I retired and can
cause a lot of unfair criticism.
I think it very much depends upon how one is "told".

Those with a "telling" style of communication, have low self awareness.
They fail to see themselves as others see them....unfortunately.
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-25 00:31:51 UTC
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Raw Message
In message
[]
Post by Btms
Post by krw
Telling someone to do their job properly is not bullying. It is
management and the modern belief that issuing instructions is tantamount
to bullying is something which I came across before I retired and can
cause a lot of unfair criticism.
I think it very much depends upon how one is "told".
Those with a "telling" style of communication, have low self awareness.
They fail to see themselves as others see them....unfortunately.
This has been an interesting thread.

I'm currently undergoing redundancy: I have my third "at risk" meeting
on Monday, at which I'll be extremely surprised if I'm not told I'm
going to be redundant during March. It came down to a selection process,
in which finally (after voluntary redundancies had been sought, other
retirements/leavings, etc.) about 9 out of about 188 had to be selected
- meaning all 188 had to be assessed and scored using an agreed method.
When I actually saw my scores - and heard the reasons given for them -
at the first "at risk" meeting, I was quite shocked: I don't recognise
myself from them, and most of those I've shared them with don't
either/are similarly surprised. The weird thing is, last October I was
assessed as part of the normal annual performance review, _by the same
person_, in most of the same categories, and given a just-above average
score, accompanied by lots of nice things in text. [The scores - and
nice texts! - were in fact _identical_ to those given the previous year;
at that time, which was before the need for redundancies was announced,
I didn't challenge, because I knew my assessor was retiring (he did so
this morning in fact), and thought I'd wait for his replacement to
discuss improving my score. But I digress.]

The thing is, between last October and January, I have not been aware
that my performance has declined drastically - and he certainly did
_not_ tell me. (Conspiracy theorists can say he was told to do a hatchet
job on me by forces unknown; I don't _think_ that is really that likely.
Apparently I'm well liked [I was told that by the union rep. when I told
him I was one of those chosen, at which point he seemed genuinely
surprised it was me].)

Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
the outcome {I'd considered going for the voluntary redundancy
[messybeast's payout, which I think is quite generous, was/is the same
whether one volunteered or was/is made compulsorily redundant]), and
financially there are plenty worse off than me.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

" ... but ... on the sub-ether radio, [it said] you're dead!"
"Yeah, that's right, I just haven't stopped moving yet." (link episode)
Sid Nuncius
2017-02-25 07:22:27 UTC
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Raw Message
On 25/02/2017 00:31, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
the outcome {I'd considered going for the voluntary redundancy
[messybeast's payout, which I think is quite generous, was/is the same
whether one volunteered or was/is made compulsorily redundant]), and
financially there are plenty worse off than me.
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Jenny M Benson
2017-02-25 10:39:14 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
the outcome {I'd considered going for the voluntary redundancy
[messybeast's payout, which I think is quite generous, was/is the same
whether one volunteered or was/is made compulsorily redundant]), and
financially there are plenty worse off than me.
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
+1.
--
Jenny M Benson
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-25 12:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
+1.
Thanks both, and CJD.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bother," said Pooh, as he tasted the bacon in his sandwich.
Serena Blanchflower
2017-02-25 14:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
the outcome {I'd considered going for the voluntary redundancy
[messybeast's payout, which I think is quite generous, was/is the same
whether one volunteered or was/is made compulsorily redundant]), and
financially there are plenty worse off than me.
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>

I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
--
Best wishes, Serena
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too
dark to read. (Groucho Marx)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-25 15:38:45 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If it's nice to look at and it makes you feel good, it's art. - Grayson Perry,
interviewed in Radio Times 12-18 October 2013
the Omrud
2017-02-25 16:41:53 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
I hope it all goes well.
--
David
Chris McMillan
2017-02-26 14:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Don't imagine you'd be at a loss for things to do, jpg, if you retire.
You're multi talented.

Sincerely Chris
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-26 17:07:26 UTC
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In message <BHBsA.297499$***@fx39.am4>, Chris McMillan
<***@ntlworld.com> writes:
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Don't imagine you'd be at a loss for things to do, jpg, if you retire.
You're multi talented.
Sincerely Chris
Most kind! It would almost certainly be genealogy for a lot of the time.

Actually, the multi is a mixed blessing: I _do_ consider myself a
generalist (within electronics) rather than a specialist (in fact I say
so on my CV because _I_ consider it an advantage), but this often makes
it difficult for potential bosses to decide which pigeonhole to put me
in. So many of the posts, they're looking for a jigsaw piece.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

aibohphobia, n., The fear of palindromes.
Chris McMillan
2017-02-26 18:57:48 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Don't imagine you'd be at a loss for things to do, jpg, if you retire.
You're multi talented.
Sincerely Chris
Most kind! It would almost certainly be genealogy for a lot of the time.
Actually, the multi is a mixed blessing: I _do_ consider myself a
generalist (within electronics) rather than a specialist (in fact I say
so on my CV because _I_ consider it an advantage), but this often makes
it difficult for potential bosses to decide which pigeonhole to put me
in. So many of the posts, they're looking for a jigsaw piece.
You've got a lot of experience you can turn into volunteering too: You can
do all the usual stuff needed to support the blind *plus* computing, lots
can't do that. As long as you don't mind being CRB (I shall never get the
nee one in my brain!) checked anyway.

And you've no fears within the dialysis volunteering field either. Stories
of your mum would cheer up anyone.

Sincerely Chris

Sincerely Chris
Jenny M Benson
2017-02-26 19:28:06 UTC
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Post by Chris McMillan
As long as you don't mind being CRB (I shall never get the
nee one in my brain!) checked anyway.
Ah! You've reminded me of something I mean to ask Umra about.

I belong to a group which meets every week in the Community Room at a
certain local (mainly clockwise) supermarket. One of the group
mentioned she would be bringing her grandson with her and the Person in
Charge (of the room, not the group) said she couldn't do that unless one
of us was CRB-checked (she used the new term but I've forgotten it as well.)

Now my contention is that the PiC is being over-zealous or
misinterpreting the rules because the child will not be left with the
group but be in the presence of his grandmother at all times and
furthermore, it is really no different to him accompanying his gran on a
shopping trip to the store.

The PiC is very nice and no one wants to make waves so the gran is
accepting the ruling, but just for my own satisfaction I would like to
know if I am right and the PiC is wrong.
--
Jenny M Benson
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-26 21:09:58 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Chris McMillan
As long as you don't mind being CRB (I shall never get the
nee one in my brain!) checked anyway.
That's one thing that put me off volunteering (I did approach my local
library when one of the "computing for the terrified" type initiatives
came round). Not that I have anything to hide that they'd find out, just
the necessity to do it (with the implied allegation).
Post by Jenny M Benson
Ah! You've reminded me of something I mean to ask Umra about.
I belong to a group which meets every week in the Community Room at a
certain local (mainly clockwise) supermarket. One of the group
I haven't come across the concept of supermarkets having community rooms
before.
Post by Jenny M Benson
mentioned she would be bringing her grandson with her and the Person in
Charge (of the room, not the group) said she couldn't do that unless
one of us was CRB-checked (she used the new term but I've forgotten it
as well.)
Now my contention is that the PiC is being over-zealous or
misinterpreting the rules because the child will not be left with the
group but be in the presence of his grandmother at all times and
furthermore, it is really no different to him accompanying his gran on
a shopping trip to the store.
It certainly _ought_ to be no different. (I don't blame the PiC for
being cautious though.)
Post by Jenny M Benson
The PiC is very nice and no one wants to make waves so the gran is
accepting the ruling, but just for my own satisfaction I would like to
know if I am right and the PiC is wrong.
Did it emerge whether any of the group _are_ checked?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I've got this shocking pain right behind the eyes."
"Have you considered amputation?" - Vila & Avon
Sam Plusnet
2017-02-26 21:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Chris McMillan
As long as you don't mind being CRB (I shall never get the
nee one in my brain!) checked anyway.
Ah! You've reminded me of something I mean to ask Umra about.
I belong to a group which meets every week in the Community Room at a
certain local (mainly clockwise) supermarket. One of the group
mentioned she would be bringing her grandson with her and the Person in
Charge (of the room, not the group) said she couldn't do that unless one
of us was CRB-checked (she used the new term but I've forgotten it as well.)
Now my contention is that the PiC is being over-zealous or
misinterpreting the rules because the child will not be left with the
group but be in the presence of his grandmother at all times and
furthermore, it is really no different to him accompanying his gran on a
shopping trip to the store.
The PiC is very nice and no one wants to make waves so the gran is
accepting the ruling, but just for my own satisfaction I would like to
know if I am right and the PiC is wrong.
I suspect it's the usual situation where the PiC isn't at all sure &
decides to go for the 'safe' option.

Shame the grandmother hadn't simply turned up with g'son - asking
forgiveness being better than seeking permission.
--
Sam Plusnet
Fenny
2017-02-26 21:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 19:28:06 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
Ah! You've reminded me of something I mean to ask Umra about.
I belong to a group which meets every week in the Community Room at a
certain local (mainly clockwise) supermarket. One of the group
mentioned she would be bringing her grandson with her and the Person in
Charge (of the room, not the group) said she couldn't do that unless one
of us was CRB-checked (she used the new term but I've forgotten it as well.)
Now my contention is that the PiC is being over-zealous or
misinterpreting the rules because the child will not be left with the
group but be in the presence of his grandmother at all times and
furthermore, it is really no different to him accompanying his gran on a
shopping trip to the store.
The PiC is very nice and no one wants to make waves so the gran is
accepting the ruling, but just for my own satisfaction I would like to
know if I am right and the PiC is wrong.
Honestly, I have no idea about this particular situation. HOwever,
I'd be mightily surprised if anyone needed to be DBS checked in this
situation. As you say, in this case, the child will not be on his own
with any strangers and it should really be no different from him going
to a cafe with his gran, who was meeting up with friends.

Even if the group has to book the room, it's still a public place.
Does the supermarket always have someone on site who is DBS checked,
or are parents not allowed to bring their offsprung into the store?

My CRB paperwork is about 14 years old and has never been updated. If
I could be bothered to dig it out, it would tell me what it covers. If
any of the members of the group have ever been teachers or similar,
they will have the necessary bit of paper.
--
Fenny
Vicky
2017-02-26 22:30:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 21:51:42 +0000, Fenny
Post by Fenny
On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 19:28:06 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
Ah! You've reminded me of something I mean to ask Umra about.
I belong to a group which meets every week in the Community Room at a
certain local (mainly clockwise) supermarket. One of the group
mentioned she would be bringing her grandson with her and the Person in
Charge (of the room, not the group) said she couldn't do that unless one
of us was CRB-checked (she used the new term but I've forgotten it as well.)
Now my contention is that the PiC is being over-zealous or
misinterpreting the rules because the child will not be left with the
group but be in the presence of his grandmother at all times and
furthermore, it is really no different to him accompanying his gran on a
shopping trip to the store.
The PiC is very nice and no one wants to make waves so the gran is
accepting the ruling, but just for my own satisfaction I would like to
know if I am right and the PiC is wrong.
Honestly, I have no idea about this particular situation. HOwever,
I'd be mightily surprised if anyone needed to be DBS checked in this
situation. As you say, in this case, the child will not be on his own
with any strangers and it should really be no different from him going
to a cafe with his gran, who was meeting up with friends.
Even if the group has to book the room, it's still a public place.
Does the supermarket always have someone on site who is DBS checked,
or are parents not allowed to bring their offsprung into the store?
My CRB paperwork is about 14 years old and has never been updated. If
I could be bothered to dig it out, it would tell me what it covers. If
any of the members of the group have ever been teachers or similar,
they will have the necessary bit of paper.
if you are working with what are termed vulnerable people or children,
don't you need to update every three years? I had the check when
working and a couple of years later began to hear children at my
grandson's school read and had to have the check again. The school
organised it, and I think paid. You have to pay for it, I believe.
https://www.gov.uk/disclosure-barring-service-check/overview
this says only an employer can apply for the check.
"A DBS check has no official expiry date. Any information included
will be accurate at the time the check was carried out. It is up to an
employer to decide if and when a new check is needed.

Applicants and employers can use the DBS update service to keep a
certificate up to date or carry out checks on a potential employee’s
certificate."

ah
"Checks for eligible volunteers are free of charge."
--
Vicky
Btms
2017-02-26 23:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Vicky <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[]
.
Post by Vicky
if you are working with what are termed vulnerable people or children,
don't you need to update every three years?
Mine is, so yes.

[]

But the requirement up-along sounds daft. The DBS only checks if a person
has any history on record. So, among a group, one person without a record
doesn't indicate anything. Could be a group full of wronguns and one who
has never been caught.
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
Anne B
2017-02-27 09:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fenny
My CRB paperwork is about 14 years old and has never been updated. If
I could be bothered to dig it out, it would tell me what it covers. If
any of the members of the group have ever been teachers or similar,
they will have the necessary bit of paper.
I had to be CRB checked years ago because I volunteer as a transcriber
at the local heritage centre. It just might happen that the permanent
staff need to take a short break, and I might be the only person in the
public area, and an unaccompanied under-18 or vulnerable person might
come in. Leaving aside the fact that no unaccompanied u18s or Vps have
ever been sighted in the heritage centre, that seemed to me to be
excessive, but as I wasn't paying for the checks to be made I just let
them get on with it. As far as I know it has never been updated.

The same thing happened at a nature reserve which is over a mile from
the nearest village and several miles from any town. I volunteered for
outdoor work on the reaserve, and I specifically said that I would not
do anything that involved contact with u18s/Vps, but it might just
happen that I was the only person in the viewing area when an
unaccompanied u18/Vp came in, so I had to be checked. Again, I wasn't
paying so didn't care, and I am pretty sure it hasn't been updated.

But I wonder just how much money is wasted year on year by carrying out
regular checks on people in similar situations? Someone must be paying
for it all, and I bet there would be better ways of spending that money.

Anne B
Penny
2017-02-28 11:44:46 UTC
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 21:51:42 +0000, Fenny <***@onetel.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Fenny
My CRB paperwork is about 14 years old and has never been updated. If
I could be bothered to dig it out, it would tell me what it covers. If
any of the members of the group have ever been teachers or similar,
they will have the necessary bit of paper.
I learnt three things about CRB checks when I was school secretary which
appalled me:

I thought we should request checks on parents (both male and female) who
were helping at swimming lessons - mostly helping small children get
changed. This was, apparently, not allowed - which probably means the
county wouldn't pay for it. They also wouldn't check me - I had as little
as possible to do with the children (unlike my predecessor in the role) but
often had a 'naughty' child foisted upon me when I was trying to work.

One parent who was going to be football coaching on school premises, when
asked to fill in his details for a CRB check said yes, fine, I'll just give
my wrong date of birth.

A teacher friend (at a different school) was suspended after working there
for a couple of years when someone actually read his CRB report. It turned
out the report related to someone of the same name with a similar but not
identical date of birth.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Fenny
2017-02-28 19:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Penny
A teacher friend (at a different school) was suspended after working there
for a couple of years when someone actually read his CRB report. It turned
out the report related to someone of the same name with a similar but not
identical date of birth.
Ma, as a supply teacher after she retired, had any number of CRB
checks done. Plus at least one other for her role as a volunteer
tutor on a health related course. They spelled her name wrong. Not
her surname, which you might expect, but her first name, which she
shares with a well known children's author.
--
Fenny
Anne B
2017-02-27 09:05:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Chris McMillan
As long as you don't mind being CRB (I shall never get the
nee one in my brain!) checked anyway.
Ah! You've reminded me of something I mean to ask Umra about.
I belong to a group which meets every week in the Community Room at a
certain local (mainly clockwise) supermarket. One of the group
mentioned she would be bringing her grandson with her and the Person in
Charge (of the room, not the group) said she couldn't do that unless one
of us was CRB-checked (she used the new term but I've forgotten it as well.)
Now my contention is that the PiC is being over-zealous or
misinterpreting the rules because the child will not be left with the
group but be in the presence of his grandmother at all times and
furthermore, it is really no different to him accompanying his gran on a
shopping trip to the store.
The PiC is very nice and no one wants to make waves so the gran is
accepting the ruling, but just for my own satisfaction I would like to
know if I am right and the PiC is wrong.
As far as I know you are right.

Anne B
Nick Odell
2017-02-27 18:16:39 UTC
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On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.

Thinking of you,

Nick
Btms
2017-02-27 19:15:16 UTC
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Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.
Thinking of you,
Nick
An opportunity as well as a loss.
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-28 00:49:24 UTC
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In message
Post by Btms
Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.
Thinking of you,
Nick
An opportunity as well as a loss.
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Why doesn't DOS ever say "EXCELLENT command or filename!"
Fenny
2017-02-28 01:00:38 UTC
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On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 00:49:24 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
Good luck with your future adventures. I hope you enjoy the next
phase.
--
Fenny
Sally Thompson
2017-02-28 08:09:56 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
Post by Btms
Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.
Thinking of you,
Nick
An opportunity as well as a loss.
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
Good luck. Perhaps try to plan something different to look forward to (eg
not Genealogy but something completely different).
--
Sally in Shropshire, UK
Btms
2017-02-28 08:34:11 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
Post by Btms
Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.
Thinking of you,
Nick
An opportunity as well as a loss.
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
Good to get a decision. Take a week or two to catch up with people/stuff.
Then start you next job. Next job is to find a new one. Keep some sort of
structure to your day. And make sure you mark the ending in some way.
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-28 23:15:06 UTC
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<1616357667.509963217.251745.poppy-***@news.eternal-september.
org>, Btms <***@thetames.me.uk> writes:
[]
Post by Btms
Good to get a decision. Take a week or two to catch up with people/stuff.
Then start you next job. Next job is to find a new one. Keep some sort of
Well, I told the new company (assuming I actually _get_ the job there!)
that my leaving date would be the 31st, because that's what I thought it
was going to be.

(Incidentally - the first three company announcements this year: 1. the
boss is going to retire, about June/July IIRR. That was one week. Then,
close together the next week [same day IIRR]: 2. The company has done
very well this year. 3. We're going to share that with employees by
giving everyone some shares [they've done this most years]; those who've
only been with the company for six months but not a year will get half
[again as in previous years]. To qualify, you must still be in the
company's employ on 31st March. So those who've been with the company,
e. g. in my case for 33 years, get a razoo shortage.)
Post by Btms
structure to your day. And make sure you mark the ending in some way.
Well, depending on how the appeal goes, I am thinking of telling some
home truths; I don't think that's what you meant (-:!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

As we journey through life, discarding baggage along the way, we should keep
an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the
soul from desiccation. - Humphrey Lyttelton quoted by Barry Cryer in Radio
Times 10-16 November 2012
Btms
2017-03-01 08:25:58 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Btms
structure to your day. And make sure you mark the ending in some way.
Well, depending on how the appeal goes, I am thinking of telling some
home truths; I don't think that's what you meant (-:!
No but maybe "that as well"?
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
Serena Blanchflower
2017-02-28 08:36:56 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
Good luck!
--
Best wishes, Serena
Live adventurously. When choices arise, do you take the way that offers
the fullest opportunity for the use of your gifts in the service of God
and the community? (Quaker Advices and Queries #27)
Mike McMillan
2017-02-28 08:38:53 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
Post by Btms
Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.
Thinking of you,
Nick
An opportunity as well as a loss.
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
Best wishes for the future Jpeg.
--
Toodle Pip
Vicky
2017-02-28 09:21:57 UTC
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On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 00:49:24 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
Post by Btms
Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.
Thinking of you,
Nick
An opportunity as well as a loss.
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
That seems a very short notice period. I wish you all the bet for the
new stage of your working life.
--
Vicky
Jenny M Benson
2017-02-28 09:55:56 UTC
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Post by Vicky
That seems a very short notice period. I wish you all the bet for the
new stage of your working life.
Better than you get if you work in IT and they think you can take
revenge and wreak havoc. I got zero notice both times. The first time
it was such a surprise and the boss waffled so much that it was about 10
minutes before I realised what he was telling me!

Both companies went tits-up before long so in both cases IN HINDSIGHT I
was glad to have got away beforehand.
--
Jenny M Benson
John Ashby
2017-02-28 11:19:16 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
Post by Btms
Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.
Thinking of you,
Nick
An opportunity as well as a loss.
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
As others say below, this is not much time to put your affairs in order.
One practical matter is what will happen to your work email address.
Will it remain accessible to you to at least read? Will they forward
stuff it receives for an interim period? There are going to be contacts
out there you may not want to lose touch with, so sending out a change
of address email is a good precaution. Also archive your email to
somewhere you'll be able to access it post redundancy, if possible
(legal restrictions may apply, but the contacts list should at least be
OK to hang onto - these are people who may be best placed to employ you
in the future).

When I took early retirement, the last thing I did was to present at a
conference a piece of work which was very well received, and which could
have led to further opportunities giving a course in Switzerland and
collaborating with people in Edinburgh. By the time I returned from the
conference my email address had been removed and there was no easy way
for them to contact me.

john (bitter, moi?)
krw
2017-02-28 11:32:07 UTC
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Post by John Ashby
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
Post by Btms
Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.
Thinking of you,
Nick
An opportunity as well as a loss.
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
As others say below, this is not much time to put your affairs in order.
One practical matter is what will happen to your work email address.
Will it remain accessible to you to at least read? Will they forward
stuff it receives for an interim period? There are going to be contacts
out there you may not want to lose touch with, so sending out a change
of address email is a good precaution. Also archive your email to
somewhere you'll be able to access it post redundancy, if possible
(legal restrictions may apply, but the contacts list should at least be
OK to hang onto - these are people who may be best placed to employ you
in the future).
When I took early retirement, the last thing I did was to present at a
conference a piece of work which was very well received, and which could
have led to further opportunities giving a course in Switzerland and
collaborating with people in Edinburgh. By the time I returned from the
conference my email address had been removed and there was no easy way
for them to contact me.
john (bitter, moi?)
For good reason most employers are unwilling to allow continued access.
I pointed out that as I was Company Secretary and it might harm the
company if matters were not handled it was agreed that my former
assistant would continue to receive emails and if anything of a personal
nature was received she would arrange to forward it. Everything else
would receive a company response and new contact - but personalised
rather than an "Out of Office" type response. There were a couple.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-28 23:29:34 UTC
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In message <o93m80$6sb$***@dont-email.me>, John Ashby
<***@yahoo.com> writes:
[]
Post by John Ashby
As others say below, this is not much time to put your affairs in
order. One practical matter is what will happen to your work email
address. Will it remain accessible to you to at least read? Will they
No, I'm pretty sure it won't.
Post by John Ashby
forward stuff it receives for an interim period? There are going to be
I think that'd be dangerous commercially; if someone internal copied me
in, not being aware that I was no longer there (or standard company
emails that go to all), then forwarding emails would mean I received
things of commercial sensitivity (or even classified).
Post by John Ashby
contacts out there you may not want to lose touch with, so sending out
a change of address email is a good precaution. Also archive your email
I'm beginning to do that now, with the companies who send me emails -
but that tends to be just ones like maplin, 7dayshop, PCWorld, and so
on. I don't have any _important_ ones: it's discouraged to use one's
company email address in such a way (and of course forbidden, as I
imagine it is in most companies, to ever imply that you _represent_ the
company in any way with it).
Post by John Ashby
to somewhere you'll be able to access it post redundancy, if possible
(legal restrictions may apply, but the contacts list should at least be
OK to hang onto - these are people who may be best placed to employ you
in the future).
As you say, legal restrictions apply. Remember, though, this is the
third time I've been through it with this company, so I'm used to
handling this!
Post by John Ashby
When I took early retirement, the last thing I did was to present at a
conference a piece of work which was very well received, and which
could have led to further opportunities giving a course in Switzerland
and collaborating with people in Edinburgh. By the time I returned from
the conference my email address had been removed and there was no easy
way for them to contact me.
That's rather sad, to say the least.
Post by John Ashby
john (bitter, moi?)
(I used exactly that phrase in something this last week!)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

As we journey through life, discarding baggage along the way, we should keep
an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the
soul from desiccation. - Humphrey Lyttelton quoted by Barry Cryer in Radio
Times 10-16 November 2012
Peter Percival
2017-02-28 23:42:34 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
things of commercial sensitivity (or even classified).
Workest thou for BAe Systems?
--
Do, as a concession to my poor wits, Lord Darlington, just explain
to me what you really mean.
I think I had better not, Duchess. Nowadays to be intelligible is
to be found out. -- Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan
Chris McMillan
2017-02-28 16:16:43 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
Post by Btms
Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:38:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
[]
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Thanks. It will: either the internal appeal will be successful, in which
case I'll stay in a job I like (and with a good pension scheme); or I'll
get another job, either very similar near the present one (I've had two
interviews there) or perhaps less paid but involving a lot less
travelling; or I'll retire and do the genealogy I enjoy full-time. (Or
possibly a combination of the last two.)
Whatever the outcome I hope you are determined to make it work in your
favour.
Thinking of you,
Nick
An opportunity as well as a loss.
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
Golly, they don't give you long to pack up!

Sincerely Chris
Chris J Dixon
2017-02-28 17:10:36 UTC
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Post by Chris McMillan
Golly, they don't give you long to pack up!
When I was made redundant, leaving time was a couple of hours.

Way back I left GEC to move to Brush, a competitor. Even though I
was far from senior, I was asked to leave the same day. I reckon
that they lost more in a poor project handover than they gained
by whatever they thought they were protecting.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk
Plant amazing Acers.
Sam Plusnet
2017-02-28 17:42:50 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Chris McMillan
Golly, they don't give you long to pack up!
When I was made redundant, leaving time was a couple of hours.
Way back I left GEC to move to Brush, a competitor. Even though I
was far from senior, I was asked to leave the same day. I reckon
that they lost more in a poor project handover than they gained
by whatever they thought they were protecting.
True, but IM(Limited)E the people who make decisions like that are not
the people who have to solve the problems so caused.

I've seen more than my share of resignations and redundancies (ones
where I dodged the bullet as well as those where I failed to duck) and
the number of times the firm shot themselves in the foot is surprisingly
high.

If a firm has a single person who is uniquely qualified to carry out
some function on which the whole business depends - you can bet they'll
be on the redundancy list.
--
Sam Plusnet
Penny
2017-02-28 18:21:53 UTC
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On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 17:42:50 +0000, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> scrawled in
the dust...
Post by Sam Plusnet
If a firm has a single person who is uniquely qualified to carry out
some function on which the whole business depends - you can bet they'll
be on the redundancy list.
My SiL was such a person when he was made redundant because the city run
theatre was to be remodelled. The intention was to continue running shows
in a marquee on a different site for a year while the rebuilding work was
done.

They then advertised for someone to run the tech side of the temporary
venue and were surprised when he didn't apply (he'd worked at the old
theatre from the age of 17 but didn't have the paper qualifications). Also
surprised they didn't get any applications from suitable candidates, they
contacted him and persuaded him to take the job, implying he would then
become the technical manager at the new theatre when the time came.

He coped with all the difficulties of running shows in a tent through the
winter then found he had to apply and interview for the 'new' job. He
didn't get it - didn't have the right bits of paper :(
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
steveski
2017-02-28 18:38:27 UTC
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Post by Penny
in the dust...
Post by Sam Plusnet
If a firm has a single person who is uniquely qualified to carry out
some function on which the whole business depends - you can bet they'll
be on the redundancy list.
My SiL was such a person when he was made redundant because the city run
when the time came.
[snip bad stuff]
Post by Penny
He coped with all the difficulties of running shows in a tent through
the winter then found he had to apply and interview for the 'new' job.
He didn't get it - didn't have the right bits of paper :(
That's appalling, Penny.
--
Steveski
Chris McMillan
2017-03-01 11:44:25 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by steveski
Post by Penny
in the dust...
Post by Sam Plusnet
If a firm has a single person who is uniquely qualified to carry out
some function on which the whole business depends - you can bet they'll
be on the redundancy list.
My SiL was such a person when he was made redundant because the city run
when the time came.
[snip bad stuff]
Post by Penny
He coped with all the difficulties of running shows in a tent through
the winter then found he had to apply and interview for the 'new' job.
He didn't get it - didn't have the right bits of paper :(
That's appalling, Penny.
There for the grace of everything did McT keep working with never a day
unemployed.
Btms
2017-02-28 19:39:39 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Penny
the dust...
Post by Sam Plusnet
If a firm has a single person who is uniquely qualified to carry out
some function on which the whole business depends - you can bet they'll
be on the redundancy list.
My SiL was such a person when he was made redundant because the city run
theatre was to be remodelled. The intention was to continue running shows
in a marquee on a different site for a year while the rebuilding work was
done.
They then advertised for someone to run the tech side of the temporary
venue and were surprised when he didn't apply (he'd worked at the old
theatre from the age of 17 but didn't have the paper qualifications). Also
surprised they didn't get any applications from suitable candidates, they
contacted him and persuaded him to take the job, implying he would then
become the technical manager at the new theatre when the time came.
He coped with all the difficulties of running shows in a tent through the
winter then found he had to apply and interview for the 'new' job. He
didn't get it - didn't have the right bits of paper :(
Why does this sorry tale not surprise me at all?
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-28 23:38:39 UTC
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In message <LnhtA.485285$***@fx13.am4>, Chris McMillan
<***@ntlworld.com> writes:
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
Golly, they don't give you long to pack up!
Sincerely Chris
Yes, Les the union has been knocking them for not giving at least the 10
working days some (ACAS?) document recommends. But as otherrats have
said, much shorter periods are not uncommon, especially if they think
you might do some harm: being marched off site is far from unknown. 9½
days would be more than enough for me (just!), but it _is_ going to be
somewhat a rush getting the appeal in and handled during that time. I
say just, because I _want_ to properly pass on emails, files, and the
like - and I've been on that site for 10 years, in that job for the last
7: I _may_ change, but it's in my nature to want to terminate neatly, no
matter what. Sort of "last person to leave the country turn out the
lights" feeling.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

As we journey through life, discarding baggage along the way, we should keep
an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the
soul from desiccation. - Humphrey Lyttelton quoted by Barry Cryer in Radio
Times 10-16 November 2012
Peter Percival
2017-03-01 00:22:52 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
7: I _may_ change, but it's in my nature to want to terminate neatly, no
http://electronicdesign.com/communications/back-basics-impedance-matching-part-1
--
Do, as a concession to my poor wits, Lord Darlington, just explain
to me what you really mean.
I think I had better not, Duchess. Nowadays to be intelligible is
to be found out. -- Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan
Sam Plusnet
2017-03-01 02:57:54 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
Golly, they don't give you long to pack up!
Sincerely Chris
Yes, Les the union has been knocking them for not giving at least the 10
working days some (ACAS?) document recommends. But as otherrats have
said, much shorter periods are not uncommon, especially if they think
you might do some harm: being marched off site is far from unknown. 9½
days would be more than enough for me (just!), but it _is_ going to be
somewhat a rush getting the appeal in and handled during that time. I
say just, because I _want_ to properly pass on emails, files, and the
like - and I've been on that site for 10 years, in that job for the last
7: I _may_ change, but it's in my nature to want to terminate neatly, no
matter what. Sort of "last person to leave the country turn out the
lights" feeling.
It's quite possible that no-one will be told to pick up your work until
sometime after you have left.
Even if someone is given that task, it will no doubt be on top of all
their current jobs, so they may be much less attentive than you think
they should be.
All you can do is offer cooperation, you can't do more.

You have probably accumulated all sorts of bits and pieces at work -
don't leave sorting through it until the last few days.
Take things home now, and only leave things that must be there until
your last day.
Sometimes the dividing line between personal items and company items is
rather blurred.
Example: Do you have lab coats etc. with your name on them? If so the
company probably doesn't want them back, and you might find them useful
at home.
I have several which I use for dirty jobs around the house.
--
Sam Plusnet
Mike McMillan
2017-03-01 09:41:26 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
You have probably accumulated all sorts of bits and pieces at work -
don't leave sorting through it until the last few days.
Take things home now, and only leave things that must be there until
your last day.
Sometimes the dividing line between personal items and company items is
rather blurred.
Example: Do you have lab coats etc. with your name on them? If so the
company probably doesn't want them back, and you might find them useful
at home.
I have several which I use for dirty jobs around the house.
When I retired from the University, effectively on my 65th. Birthday but
had the rest of the week due as leave, it was my own choice to do so. I was
asked if I would consider staying for a few years but the prospect of
walking the streets of Reading in the dark and leaving to go home in the
dark for a fair part of the year did not appeal, nor did the numerous
additional unpaid hours appeal much; I had had my work removed from under
my feet and given a managerial job instead.

I received a personal letter from the VC to tell me I had been made an
honorary fellow of the university for 5 years and have 'freeman of the
university' type rights, this means I still have my email address and
facilities, use of the library, entitlement to attend any university run
training courses when space is available etc.

Rather in the same fashion as you Jpeg, I wanted to ease in my successor so
I wrote a large bound handbook of duties, responsibilities, contacts, and a
resume of courses of action to be taken, additional procedures I had
introduced and why, plus a confidential appraisal of my staff, their
duties etc. Finances were also given their own chapter and a copy was
handed to the Head of Institute plus one for my replacement to inwardly
digest in his/her own time. The HOI was very grateful as was the chap who
took my place later. I think the HOI was particularly grateful as there was
no one person in the Institute who was aware of all my duties as the
Facilities and Technical Services manager; the post was only really created
in 2011 and the person who took the job gave notice to move elsewhere
within weeks. The new job suddenly encompassed far more than the Job of
Chief Technician which it had grown out of. When the whole campus moved to
new premises in the Town, all the extra responsibilities were just given to
me with no salary adjustment, the only adjustment was the removal of the
number of hours I might work! Oh, and there was no handover time though I
did offer to do so when the HOI enquired, believe it or not, no one would
sanction the additional pay!
--
Toodle Pip
Penny
2017-03-01 11:22:20 UTC
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On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 09:41:26 GMT, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
I wrote a large bound handbook of duties, responsibilities, contacts, and a
resume of courses of action to be taken,
I received such a handbook from the retiring bursar at school when I took
on her role alongside my own and increased my days from 2 to 3. It was
extremely useful (no one else in the place knew any of this stuff) and I
could also phone her if she'd missed anything or I didn't understand.

All went well for a year or so until, due to a County reorganisation
(Medway became a unitary authority), our regional education office closed
and none of the staff wanted to stay on and commute to the new site. Then
it all went haywire and one of our staff (who was on three different
payrolls) stopped being paid properly. The new education office insisted it
was all my fault but couldn't tell me what I should be doing for it to work
as it had been. I didn't stay long after that.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Fenny
2017-03-01 18:28:57 UTC
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Post by Penny
On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 09:41:26 GMT, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
I wrote a large bound handbook of duties, responsibilities, contacts, and a
resume of courses of action to be taken,
I received such a handbook from the retiring bursar at school when I took
on her role alongside my own and increased my days from 2 to 3. It was
extremely useful (no one else in the place knew any of this stuff) and I
could also phone her if she'd missed anything or I didn't understand.
All went well for a year or so until, due to a County reorganisation
(Medway became a unitary authority), our regional education office closed
and none of the staff wanted to stay on and commute to the new site. Then
it all went haywire and one of our staff (who was on three different
payrolls) stopped being paid properly. The new education office insisted it
was all my fault but couldn't tell me what I should be doing for it to work
as it had been. I didn't stay long after that.
I spent a lot of time with our admin staff going through all kinds of
processes and left detailed instruction on how to do things.
Apparently, 3 months later, my successor is still having problems with
basic stuff and lots of things are not getting done at all, or are
done incorrectly.

I feel sorry for the chap I used to work closely with, as he is
getting a lot of the flack for this. I don't feel sorry for the other
people in the office who seemed to spend their days implying I didn't
do anything of import.

Meanwhile, I had my 3 month probationary review in my new job last
week, which went very well. I've noticed how incredibly less stressed
I am these days and my car is noticing doing about 800 miles a month
less travel.
--
Fenny
Btms
2017-03-01 20:43:01 UTC
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Mike McMillan <***@ntlworld.com> wrote:


[]

Oh, and there was no handover time though I
Post by Mike McMillan
did offer to do so when the HOI enquired, believe it or not, no one would
sanction the additional pay!
Words of appreciation come cheap you know.
--
BTMS - Usurped as Editor in waiting
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-03-01 21:08:28 UTC
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[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Yes, Les the union has been knocking them for not giving at least the 10
working days some (ACAS?) document recommends. But as otherrats have
said, much shorter periods are not uncommon, especially if they think
you might do some harm: being marched off site is far from unknown. 9½
days would be more than enough for me (just!), but it _is_ going to be
Actually, I'm struggling - 6½ working days left, including the time for
the appeal hearing and the formal leaving stuff (handing things in,
signing things off), and I've been at most of the last couple of days
going through emails (7 years' worth), with files to follow. I _think_
I'll get through it!
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
somewhat a rush getting the appeal in and handled during that time. I
say just, because I _want_ to properly pass on emails, files, and the
like - and I've been on that site for 10 years, in that job for the last
7: I _may_ change, but it's in my nature to want to terminate neatly, no
matter what. Sort of "last person to leave the country turn out the
lights" feeling.
It's quite possible that no-one will be told to pick up your work until
sometime after you have left.
I know who'll probably be doing it, and his workload is currently
patchy.
Post by Sam Plusnet
Even if someone is given that task, it will no doubt be on top of all
their current jobs, so they may be much less attentive than you think
they should be.
Oh, he's conscientious. He's my tea-break crossword buddy. (An
ex-Ghurka, not that that's relevant.)
Post by Sam Plusnet
All you can do is offer cooperation, you can't do more.
Indeed.
Post by Sam Plusnet
You have probably accumulated all sorts of bits and pieces at work -
don't leave sorting through it until the last few days.
Take things home now, and only leave things that must be there until
your last day.
Sometimes the dividing line between personal items and company items is
rather blurred.
Oh, planning that too.
Post by Sam Plusnet
Example: Do you have lab coats etc. with your name on them? If so the
company probably doesn't want them back, and you might find them useful
at home.
No, they're laundered, and don't have our names on. White coats with
conductive threads.
Post by Sam Plusnet
I have several which I use for dirty jobs around the house.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The first banjo solo I played was actually just a series of mistakes. In fact
it was all the mistakes I knew at the time. - Tim Dowling, RT2015/6/20-26
Chris J Dixon
2017-03-01 10:34:25 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Yes, Les the union has been knocking them for not giving at least the 10
working days some (ACAS?) document recommends. But as otherrats have
said, much shorter periods are not uncommon, especially if they think
you might do some harm: being marched off site is far from unknown.
When I finally took VR, we agreed a period of handover, which I
think was about 3 weeks. What surprised me was that the pay in
lieu of notice was re-calculated to run from my actual finishing
date. No complaints ;-) it was more generous than I was
expecting.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk
Plant amazing Acers.
Chris McMillan
2017-03-01 11:44:25 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Got confirmation this (Monday) morning: leaving day is 10th.
Golly, they don't give you long to pack up!
Sincerely Chris
Yes, Les the union has been knocking them for not giving at least the 10
working days some (ACAS?) document recommends. But as otherrats have
said, much shorter periods are not uncommon, especially if they think
you might do some harm: being marched off site is far from unknown. 9½
days would be more than enough for me (just!), but it _is_ going to be
somewhat a rush getting the appeal in and handled during that time. I
say just, because I _want_ to properly pass on emails, files, and the
like - and I've been on that site for 10 years, in that job for the last
7: I _may_ change, but it's in my nature to want to terminate neatly, no
matter what. Sort of "last person to leave the country turn out the
lights" feeling.
I would be the same.

Sincerely Chris
Penny
2017-02-28 11:50:39 UTC
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On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 19:15:16 -0000 (UTC), Btms <***@thetames.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Btms
An opportunity as well as a loss.
Interesting programme I heard yesterday morning "Is one career enough?".
The world is your oyster - be gritty, make pearls :)
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
BrritSki
2017-02-25 16:48:25 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
<much snippage of serious stuff>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
the outcome {I'd considered going for the voluntary redundancy
[messybeast's payout, which I think is quite generous, was/is the same
whether one volunteered or was/is made compulsorily redundant]), and
financially there are plenty worse off than me.
Nonetheless, I'm sorry to hear that you're having to go through this,
John. I hope it's not too dreadful, whatever the outcome.
<languid wave>
I hope it proves to be the start of something good, rather than just a loss.
Exactly. Waife and I (like most people there) were devastated when TI
decided to close their Bedford plant where we both worked. We'd met
through TI in Rieti, I'd worked for them for 25 years, waife for about
15 off and on.

They wanted me to move to Sunbury near Heathrow but wouldn't let me
commute and I wouldn't move because kids were at critical stages of
education, so I took the package.

I went contracting - I'd thought about it for years, but never dared to
take the risk. Now with the very generous redundancy money behind me I
decided to go for it. I kept renewing my contract at Frod (sic) in Essex
(commuting !) for 10 years and made loadsamoney and was able to retire
at 57. Waife wasn't quite so lucky initially with her jobs but ended up
at Cranfield Uni which she really enjoyed.

Life goes on and is what you make of it. Good luck JPG.
the Omrud
2017-02-25 16:59:30 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Exactly. Waife and I (like most people there) were devastated when TI
decided to close their Bedford plant where we both worked. We'd met
through TI in Rieti, I'd worked for them for 25 years, waife for about
15 off and on.
They wanted me to move to Sunbury near Heathrow but wouldn't let me
commute and I wouldn't move because kids were at critical stages of
education, so I took the package.
Wouldn't let you commute? How would that have been enforced?
--
David
BrritSki
2017-02-25 17:49:37 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
Post by BrritSki
Exactly. Waife and I (like most people there) were devastated when TI
decided to close their Bedford plant where we both worked. We'd met
through TI in Rieti, I'd worked for them for 25 years, waife for about
15 off and on.
They wanted me to move to Sunbury near Heathrow but wouldn't let me
commute and I wouldn't move because kids were at critical stages of
education, so I took the package.
Wouldn't let you commute? How would that have been enforced?
No idea, but moving was a condition of the job offer, so I guess that
was contractually enforceable, and since they had always treated me
honourably I think I was honour-bound to return the favour.

I bet I could have spun the move out for a year or 3 though :)
John Ashby
2017-02-25 18:15:57 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by BrritSki
Exactly. Waife and I (like most people there) were devastated when TI
decided to close their Bedford plant where we both worked. We'd met
through TI in Rieti, I'd worked for them for 25 years, waife for about
15 off and on.
They wanted me to move to Sunbury near Heathrow but wouldn't let me
commute and I wouldn't move because kids were at critical stages of
education, so I took the package.
Wouldn't let you commute? How would that have been enforced?
No idea, but moving was a condition of the job offer, so I guess that
was contractually enforceable, and since they had always treated me
honourably I think I was honour-bound to return the favour.
I bet I could have spun the move out for a year or 3 though :)
Would you have needed to be on-call perhaps?

john
BrritSki
2017-02-25 19:14:36 UTC
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Post by John Ashby
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by BrritSki
Exactly. Waife and I (like most people there) were devastated when TI
decided to close their Bedford plant where we both worked. We'd met
through TI in Rieti, I'd worked for them for 25 years, waife for about
15 off and on.
They wanted me to move to Sunbury near Heathrow but wouldn't let me
commute and I wouldn't move because kids were at critical stages of
education, so I took the package.
Wouldn't let you commute? How would that have been enforced?
No idea, but moving was a condition of the job offer, so I guess that
was contractually enforceable, and since they had always treated me
honourably I think I was honour-bound to return the favour.
I bet I could have spun the move out for a year or 3 though :)
Would you have needed to be on-call perhaps?
Nope....
Sam Plusnet
2017-02-26 00:55:19 UTC
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Post by John Ashby
Post by BrritSki
Post by the Omrud
Post by BrritSki
Exactly. Waife and I (like most people there) were devastated when TI
decided to close their Bedford plant where we both worked. We'd met
through TI in Rieti, I'd worked for them for 25 years, waife for about
15 off and on.
They wanted me to move to Sunbury near Heathrow but wouldn't let me
commute and I wouldn't move because kids were at critical stages of
education, so I took the package.
Wouldn't let you commute? How would that have been enforced?
No idea, but moving was a condition of the job offer, so I guess that
was contractually enforceable, and since they had always treated me
honourably I think I was honour-bound to return the favour.
I bet I could have spun the move out for a year or 3 though :)
Would you have needed to be on-call perhaps?
Nope....
It's not uncommon IME, the company wants assurance that you will commit
to the new job and not simply take it whilst doing an extended
job-search in your existing location.
I knew several people who took transfers to a site 70 miles from 'home'
and kept looking for alternative work close to home (or hung on until
retirement) whilst fending off HR's repeated demands that they get on
with the move.
--
Sam Plusnet
Chris J Dixon
2017-02-25 08:45:57 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I'm currently undergoing redundancy: I have my third "at risk" meeting
on Monday, at which I'll be extremely surprised if I'm not told I'm
going to be redundant during March.
Sorry to hear this. I recall the naturally awkward discussion
when, after several successive rounds of downsizing, I was
eventually one of those chosen for redundancy. My boss, with whom
I had worked closely for many years, memorably said "It's not
personal." What, they had a lucky dip?

A group of us had a hike planned for a couple of weeks later, and
had booked the time off. Only half of us actually needed it.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk
Plant amazing Acers.
Sam Plusnet
2017-02-26 01:13:06 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I'm currently undergoing redundancy: I have my third "at risk" meeting
on Monday, at which I'll be extremely surprised if I'm not told I'm
going to be redundant during March.
Sorry to hear this. I recall the naturally awkward discussion
when, after several successive rounds of downsizing, I was
eventually one of those chosen for redundancy. My boss, with whom
I had worked closely for many years, memorably said "It's not
personal." What, they had a lucky dip?
I too have been through the process several times.

At one firm, I finally lost out on the 5th (or was it the 6th?) round of
redundancies.
Each round seemed to have a 'theme'.
Sometimes Department heads were simply told that they would lose x% of
their personnel and they should pick people they could best do without -
but don't pick anyone from an identifiable minority group (in some
departments, gender could represent a minority group).

Sometimes they were encouraged to pick new employees (cheaper since they
wouldn't qualify for much in the way of redundancy) or other times it
was long-term employees who were at or near the top of their payscale
(biggest impact on the payroll).
Other times they simply got rid of a whole department.

It's not a nice experience John, I found it helpful to treat the whole
thing with some detachment since it's all too easy to take it as a very
personal rejection - and it really isn't that at all.
--
Sam Plusnet
Vicky
2017-02-26 09:17:23 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
At one firm, I finally lost out on the 5th (or was it the 6th?) round of
redundancies.
Each round seemed to have a 'theme'.
Sometimes Department heads were simply told that they would lose x% of
their personnel and they should pick people they could best do without -
but don't pick anyone from an identifiable minority group (in some
departments, gender could represent a minority group).
Sometimes they were encouraged to pick new employees (cheaper since they
wouldn't qualify for much in the way of redundancy) or other times it
was long-term employees who were at or near the top of their payscale
(biggest impact on the payroll).
Other times they simply got rid of a whole department.
It's not a nice experience John, I found it helpful to treat the whole
thing with some detachment since it's all too easy to take it as a very
personal rejection - and it really isn't that at all.
i had the opposite experience with redundancy. I wanted to take it,
there were several rounds and they refused to let me take it. I was
near the top of the scale and had been there long-term and it was
probably too expensive. It was an FE college. I didn't take it as a
tribute to my abilities as I'd twice been doing a job for some time
that, when it was formally advertised, I didn't nuggering get.
--
Vicky
Flop
2017-02-26 13:00:29 UTC
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On 26/02/2017 09:17, Vicky wrote:


I'd twice been doing a job for some time
Post by Vicky
that, when it was formally advertised, I didn't nuggering get.
Very common - especially with agency staff applying for a permanent job.

Hiring is hugely expensive in terms of man-hours and cost.

If you apply for a vacancy and succeed, they have to go through the
process again to replace you.

Why bother?
--
Flop
Vicky
2017-02-26 13:26:51 UTC
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Post by Vicky
I'd twice been doing a job for some time
Post by Vicky
that, when it was formally advertised, I didn't nuggering get.
Very common - especially with agency staff applying for a permanent job.
Hiring is hugely expensive in terms of man-hours and cost.
If you apply for a vacancy and succeed, they have to go through the
process again to replace you.
Why bother?
I was permanent. The job I was covering was higher level so they said
carry on doing it but not appointed as that. I've forgotten how they
worked it. Then they said the qualification I had, which the head of
department also had, had changed, and would I like to re-do it. 20
years later :). it wasn't really relevant to the post, but was a
qualification at a certain level. The one I had had not been
umbrellaed by the umbrella body.
--
Vicky
Peter Percival
2017-02-26 10:38:48 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Sometimes Department heads were simply told that they would lose x% of
their personnel and they should pick people they could best do without -
but don't pick anyone from an identifiable minority group
Depending on how the minority group was identified, that could be illegal.
Post by Sam Plusnet
(in some
departments, gender could represent a minority group
For example in that case.
Post by Sam Plusnet
).
Sometimes they were encouraged to pick new employees (cheaper since they
wouldn't qualify for much in the way of redundancy) or other times it
was long-term employees who were at or near the top of their payscale
(biggest impact on the payroll).
Other times they simply got rid of a whole department.
It's not a nice experience John, I found it helpful to treat the whole
thing with some detachment since it's all too easy to take it as a very
personal rejection - and it really isn't that at all.
Well, yes it is.
--
Do, as a concession to my poor wits, Lord Darlington, just explain
to me what you really mean.
I think I had better not, Duchess. Nowadays to be intelligible is
to be found out. -- Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-26 11:27:10 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I'm currently undergoing redundancy: I have my third "at risk" meeting
on Monday, at which I'll be extremely surprised if I'm not told I'm
going to be redundant during March.
Sorry to hear this. I recall the naturally awkward discussion
when, after several successive rounds of downsizing, I was
eventually one of those chosen for redundancy. My boss, with whom
I had worked closely for many years, memorably said "It's not
personal." What, they had a lucky dip?
I too have been through the process several times.
It's my third: in 2007, the small establishment I was at in Great Baddow
(near Chelmsford), Essex, were doing headcount reduction; at the last
moment they found me another job (at the same title) with the company,
but in Kent, so I had to move. in 2010, _they_ did a headcount reduction
among the engineer group, and I again at the last minute got another
position with them (this time at the same site, but moving from senior
hardware engineer to technician - actually only about 10% down in
salary, and I've more than made that up since); and now, when they're
reducing the "manual workers" (and some other pools, though _not_ the
engineers this time).
Post by Sam Plusnet
At one firm, I finally lost out on the 5th (or was it the 6th?) round of
redundancies.
Each round seemed to have a 'theme'.
Sometimes Department heads were simply told that they would lose x% of
their personnel and they should pick people they could best do without
- but don't pick anyone from an identifiable minority group (in some
departments, gender could represent a minority group).
Sometimes they were encouraged to pick new employees (cheaper since
they wouldn't qualify for much in the way of redundancy) or other times
it was long-term employees who were at or near the top of their
payscale (biggest impact on the payroll).
Other times they simply got rid of a whole department.
Interesting.
Post by Sam Plusnet
It's not a nice experience John, I found it helpful to treat the whole
thing with some detachment since it's all too easy to take it as a very
Well, as I've said, I'm financially more fortunate than many (for no
reason I can put my finger on; probably just a parsimonious lifestyle,
though I enjoy life). I'm quite content at the moment - in fact,
somewhat like (on-topic alert!) Kirsty.
Post by Sam Plusnet
personal rejection - and it really isn't that at all.
Well, I know I'm one of about 9 (from the manuals), so don't view it as
personal. (I _do_ view my _scores_ - they rated us all on several
criteria, to establish a total score each; in theory a very fair
selection process - as having been drawn up somewhat inconsistently [and
mainly by one individual who has now retired], but apart from that I
don't really view it as personal.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

31.69 nHz = once a year. (Julian Thomas)
Flop
2017-02-25 09:20:45 UTC
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If you were considering voluntary redundancy, you may be better off now.

It is possible that they will make you redundant.

Then threaten (gently) an industrial tribunal based on your written
evidence.

You could find yourself being given a significantly enhanced offer.
Nothing to lose :-)


Best of luck.
--
Flop

2016 Resolution - lose 10pounds.
Only 15 pounds to go.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-02-25 12:51:28 UTC
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Post by Flop
If you were considering voluntary redundancy, you may be better off now.
It is possible that they will make you redundant.
I'd say the probability is about 100% (-:!
Post by Flop
Then threaten (gently) an industrial tribunal based on your written
evidence.
Oh, they've factored that in.
Post by Flop
You could find yourself being given a significantly enhanced offer.
No, already made.
Post by Flop
Nothing to lose :-)
Best of luck.
Thanks for the good wishes.

Unfortunately, I _do_ have much money to lose if I go to tribunal: the
redundancy payout offer is considerably better than statutory redundancy
(it's several _times_ that), but to get it, I have to sign to say I'll
take no action - basically, it's hush money, AFAICS. I have the right,
of course, _not_ to sign that agreement, in which case I'd get just the
statutory amount. My union rep advises me that the statutory amount,
plus what I'd get if I _won_ at a tribunal, would still come to less
than the "enhanced offer". (And there's always the chance of losing - in
which case I think they can claim costs.)

So I'll probably go for the internal appeals process, but wouldn't go to
anything external.

To be fair, the offer they made - which they've more or less made on all
previous occasions, too - is IMO generous: three weeks' wages per
completed year of service, capped at 26 years' worth (and the weekly
wage capped at something well above mine) - which comes to a maximum of
a year and a half's salary, for those who've been there long enough to
get the maximum (I've been there 33 years). This offer is available
whether one applied for voluntary severance (I didn't; lots did, though
not all were granted it, on the grounds they were needed), or would be
made compulsorily redundant: you got the same money either way. The
statutory _minimum_ is I think _one_ week's pay per year of service, and
I think with lower caps on both weekly pay and maximum number of years.

So the offer is good. I just didn't like the apparent inconsistency in
the scoring used to decide who got the chop in the areas where they
didn't get enough volunteers, so I might well use the internal appeals
process; but, obviously, nothing external. One's moral indignation has a
practical limit (-:!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Whoever decided to limit tagline length to 68 characters can kiss my
Vicky
2017-02-25 09:36:55 UTC
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On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 00:31:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
This has been an interesting thread.
I'm currently undergoing redundancy: I have my third "at risk" meeting
on Monday, at which I'll be extremely surprised if I'm not told I'm
going to be redundant during March. It came down to a selection process,
in which finally (after voluntary redundancies had been sought, other
retirements/leavings, etc.) about 9 out of about 188 had to be selected
- meaning all 188 had to be assessed and scored using an agreed method.
When I actually saw my scores - and heard the reasons given for them -
at the first "at risk" meeting, I was quite shocked: I don't recognise
myself from them, and most of those I've shared them with don't
either/are similarly surprised. The weird thing is, last October I was
assessed as part of the normal annual performance review, _by the same
person_, in most of the same categories, and given a just-above average
score, accompanied by lots of nice things in text. [The scores - and
nice texts! - were in fact _identical_ to those given the previous year;
at that time, which was before the need for redundancies was announced,
I didn't challenge, because I knew my assessor was retiring (he did so
this morning in fact), and thought I'd wait for his replacement to
discuss improving my score. But I digress.]
The thing is, between last October and January, I have not been aware
that my performance has declined drastically - and he certainly did
_not_ tell me. (Conspiracy theorists can say he was told to do a hatchet
job on me by forces unknown; I don't _think_ that is really that likely.
Apparently I'm well liked [I was told that by the union rep. when I told
him I was one of those chosen, at which point he seemed genuinely
surprised it was me].)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
the outcome {I'd considered going for the voluntary redundancy
[messybeast's payout, which I think is quite generous, was/is the same
whether one volunteered or was/is made compulsorily redundant]), and
financially there are plenty worse off than me.
I think what Flop said is worth a go as you have the written evidence
that the redundancy interviews were glaringly different from your last
two annual ones and no record of anyone saying performance declined.
Will the union rep lend support? I hope it goes well, whichever
outcome.
--
Vicky
BrritSki
2017-02-25 14:19:54 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Vicky
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 00:31:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
This has been an interesting thread.
I'm currently undergoing redundancy: I have my third "at risk" meeting
on Monday, at which I'll be extremely surprised if I'm not told I'm
going to be redundant during March. It came down to a selection process,
in which finally (after voluntary redundancies had been sought, other
retirements/leavings, etc.) about 9 out of about 188 had to be selected
- meaning all 188 had to be assessed and scored using an agreed method.
When I actually saw my scores - and heard the reasons given for them -
at the first "at risk" meeting, I was quite shocked: I don't recognise
myself from them, and most of those I've shared them with don't
either/are similarly surprised. The weird thing is, last October I was
assessed as part of the normal annual performance review, _by the same
person_, in most of the same categories, and given a just-above average
score, accompanied by lots of nice things in text. [The scores - and
nice texts! - were in fact _identical_ to those given the previous year;
at that time, which was before the need for redundancies was announced,
I didn't challenge, because I knew my assessor was retiring (he did so
this morning in fact), and thought I'd wait for his replacement to
discuss improving my score. But I digress.]
The thing is, between last October and January, I have not been aware
that my performance has declined drastically - and he certainly did
_not_ tell me. (Conspiracy theorists can say he was told to do a hatchet
job on me by forces unknown; I don't _think_ that is really that likely.
Apparently I'm well liked [I was told that by the union rep. when I told
him I was one of those chosen, at which point he seemed genuinely
surprised it was me].)
Incidentally, UMRA, don't worry about me - I'm quite cheerful whatever
the outcome {I'd considered going for the voluntary redundancy
[messybeast's payout, which I think is quite generous, was/is the same
whether one volunteered or was/is made compulsorily redundant]), and
financially there are plenty worse off than me.
I think what Flop said is worth a go as you have the written evidence
that the redundancy interviews were glaringly different from your last
two annual ones and no record of anyone saying performance declined.
Will the union rep lend support? I hope it goes well, whichever
outcome.
<languid wave>
Peter Percival
2017-02-26 16:06:15 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I'm currently undergoing redundancy: I have my third "at risk" meeting
on Monday, at which I'll be extremely surprised if I'm not told I'm
going to be redundant during March.
Sorry about that old bean. I was made redundant four times and sacked
for incompetence twice. After that I decided not to work again. I have
never been happier.
--
Do, as a concession to my poor wits, Lord Darlington, just explain
to me what you really mean.
I think I had better not, Duchess. Nowadays to be intelligible is
to be found out. -- Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan
Mike McMillan
2017-02-24 15:28:31 UTC
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Post by krw
Telling someone to do their job properly is not bullying. It is
management and the modern belief that issuing instructions is tantamount
to bullying is something which I came across before I retired and can
cause a lot of unfair criticism.
But there are different ways/ tones of voice etc. that may be employed in
instructing others to do their job properly, his style as I recall was
antagonistic at the least, he didn't act in a neutral informative manner
and to me would not have been at all approachable; I would have felt
threatened in her place. Far better to have spoken to her in a friendly
style, explained where he felt her performance fell short of expectatations
and encouraged her to suggest how she felt she might improve. (This was how
I was trained to work with my staff anyway and myself, I always felt I
worked WITH senior staff, not for them) just my brass razzoos worth.
--
Toodle Pip
Sid Nuncius
2017-02-24 19:32:47 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Serena Blanchflower
On 22/02/2017 18:41, krw, talking about when Kathy was working at the
Post by krw
Seriously it was not bullying - she really was not doing the job
properly and needed telling. There was one instance where he was
unreasonable over wanting a report in an unfair timescale but otherwise
he was ensuring that an employee did her job better and stopped the
losses the club were encountering.
I agree with you that she hadn't been doing her job well, come to
that, Kathy acknowledged that herself. That didn't alter the fact
that, IMO, Martin was definitely bullying her. Even if you disagree
with that assessment, it was a very poor management technique as,
rather than helping Kathy to improve, he reduced her to a jelly and
left her far less able to work effectively.
I disagree - he told what was wrong and which she had not spotted. She
then failed to keep him advised and went off implementing a promotion
and keeping him informed as to the basis of the benefits it would bring.
If she had worked with him rather than against him she would have
achieved the desired result. She did not try and get her manager onside
- she almost deliberately antagonised him - especially as he was right!
Telling someone to do their job properly is not bullying. It is
management and the modern belief that issuing instructions is tantamount
to bullying is something which I came across before I retired and can
cause a lot of unfair criticism.
True - but leaving aside the loaded term "bullying", there was a lot
more to it than that. He did find genuine faults in Kathy's work, but
he was deliberately undermining in the way he handled them and made a
point of being offensive and humiliating her. It emerged that he
already had someone (sister-in-law?) lined up for the job and the strong
implication was that his intention was to drive Kathy to resign.

You're right that she did need to improve some areas of her work. That
does not, IMO, justify his behaviour.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
steveski
2017-02-24 19:35:36 UTC
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On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 19:32:47 +0000, Sid Nuncius wrote:

[]
Post by Sid Nuncius
You're right that she did need to improve some areas of her work. That
does not, IMO, justify his behaviour.
Wot Sid said.
--
Steveski
carolet
2017-02-22 14:01:47 UTC
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Post by Vicky
Thank you. I should keep this for reference so when i forget it all by
next week...:)
Post by krw
Kathy arrived in the village married to Steve Holland but that was
already over. She was Lucy's teacher and rented Sid's retirement
cottage. She then met and had an affair with Dave Barry (the policeman)
and her divorce came through. Then she became a close friend of Pat.
And then she and Sid became closer. After a couple of years the Perks
You say the Perks so they got married?
That was answered before, but I can add that they were married on the
24th April 1987.
--
CaroleT


---
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Serena Blanchflower
2017-02-22 14:30:35 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Vicky
Kathy met Kenton and he moved in. Jolene stole HIM too!
Not really - it was over with Kenton before the rape and before he got
together with Jolene.
Kathy and Kenton were still together at the time of the rape, although
things were a bit rocky between them Kenton had gone to New Zealand
without her. Sid and Jolene were happily married by then, although
Jolene was, initially, unhappy about the amount of time Sid was spending
supporting Kathy after the rape, until Sid got Kathy's permission to
tell her what had happened. After that, Jolene was very supportive.
Kenton was at his best, supporting Kathy through the aftermath of the
rape but then, once things were on an even keel again, he started to get
bored and they split up.

Kenton and Jolene only got together after both Sid had died, and Kenton
and Kathy had split up. That didn't stop Kathy feeling that Jolene had
stolen another of her men though.
--
Best wishes, Serena
The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter.
(Mark Twain)
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