Discussion:
Ambridge Diary from the Radio Times SPOILERS
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Vicky
2017-09-22 12:23:35 UTC
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For those who were unable to find it online. It's a doozy this week.
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Justin is ignoring the old adage - never mix business with pleasure -
at his perfil, Hence his offer to include Amside under the Damara
umbrella, a move that doesn't go down well with Lilian, who's already
smarting at his suggestion that she recruits a wedding planner.

Elsewhere, Ian is thrilled when Helen comes forward to offer her
services as a surrogate mother, but more than one resident has serious
concerns. In the end, Helen is left wondering whether she has been
too hasty.

And the cricket team prepare for their final match against a smug
Darrington. With Josh unable to take part, Jolene steps up to the
crease. Will this be the final nail in the coffin for Harrison's
captaincy? By David Brown

+++++++++++++++++

I thought the SWs and powers would think it too bland to have Lilian
and Justin stay in unruffled happiness. And anyway I'm waiting for the
Dark Secret of his London trips to be revealed.

Helen? Oaahhhh noaahhhh! I thought, and someone did mention she might
offer, but didn't we dismiss it as a very very very bad idea? And is
it Adam, as well as Pat'an'Tony who think so too? And now Helen is
committed and worried. Was the offer because she felt guilty about
telling Rob she saw Adam and Charlie and caused the current shadow?

Why can't Josh take part in the cricket match? Has the person he got
the tractor from, which is not paid for and has been stolen, taken
revenge and left him in a damaged physical state? Anyway, I think
Jolene will knock all the balls sent by Darrington's finest bowler out
of the field for sixes and win the match.
--
Vicky
krw
2017-09-22 12:44:27 UTC
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Post by Vicky
Justin is ignoring the old adage - never mix business with pleasure -
at his perfil, Hence his offer to include Amside under the Damara
umbrella, a move that doesn't go down well with Lilian, who's already
smarting at his suggestion that she recruits a wedding planner.
Justin is an absolute control freak - in many ways it is far more hidden
than Rob but it is a very similar approach in making her entirely
dependent on him. Surely she is too old to fall for it?

But we said that about Helen and now she is getting the turkey baster
out again.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
DavidK
2017-09-22 14:18:57 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Vicky
Justin is ignoring the old adage - never mix business with pleasure -
at his perfil, Hence his offer to include Amside under the Damara
umbrella, a move that doesn't go down well with Lilian, who's already
smarting at his suggestion that she recruits a wedding planner.
Justin is an absolute control freak - in many ways it is far more hidden
than Rob but it is a very similar approach in making her entirely
dependent on him.  Surely she is too old to fall for it?
But we said that about Helen and now she is getting the turkey baster
out again.
It's perhaps unfair; but I wonder if Ian has ever thought about the
parallel between his asking Adam to bring up Ian's child and Brian
asking Jennifer to bring up Rory? I'm not saying they are the same, but
Adam has already pointed out to someone else that the tie between Ian
and their child will be genetic and stronger than that between Adam and
child.

If Helen were to be the surrogate-mother genetically then Adam would
have some genetic relationship with the child. It would be his
1st-cousin once-removed I think.
Penny
2017-09-22 15:26:24 UTC
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On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 15:18:57 +0100, DavidK <***@invalid.invalid>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by DavidK
It's perhaps unfair; but I wonder if Ian has ever thought about the
parallel between his asking Adam to bring up Ian's child and Brian
asking Jennifer to bring up Rory?
Didn't Ian have a conversation with her about it only last week?
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
DavidK
2017-09-22 17:19:30 UTC
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Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by DavidK
It's perhaps unfair; but I wonder if Ian has ever thought about the
parallel between his asking Adam to bring up Ian's child and Brian
asking Jennifer to bring up Rory?
Didn't Ian have a conversation with her about it only last week?
That's probably what I'm thinking of in the sentence after the one you
have quoted
carolet
2017-09-24 11:25:35 UTC
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Post by DavidK
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by DavidK
It's perhaps unfair; but I wonder if Ian has ever thought about the
parallel between his asking Adam to bring up Ian's child and Brian
asking Jennifer to bring up Rory?
Didn't Ian have a conversation with her about it only last week?
That's probably what I'm thinking of in the sentence after the one you
have quoted
Ian was talking to various different people about having children, but
yes, that did include talking to Jenny about Ruairi's arrival.

On the other hand, Adam spoke to Jenny about his worries that a
surrogate baby would have genetic ties to Ian but not to him. I think
this might be what David was thinking of in the first of his two posts
here. Neither Adam nor Jenny mentioned Ruairi in that conversation. I
thought that Jenny could have usefully mentioned him. There are certain
similarities in the two cases, but the new baby will always know that
Ian and Adam are his Daddy and Dad, and Adam has less reason to resent
the child's birth mother.
--
CaroleT
Btms
2017-09-24 11:54:29 UTC
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Post by carolet
Post by DavidK
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by DavidK
It's perhaps unfair; but I wonder if Ian has ever thought about the
parallel between his asking Adam to bring up Ian's child and Brian
asking Jennifer to bring up Rory?
Didn't Ian have a conversation with her about it only last week?
That's probably what I'm thinking of in the sentence after the one you
have quoted
Ian was talking to various different people about having children, but
yes, that did include talking to Jenny about Ruairi's arrival.
On the other hand, Adam spoke to Jenny about his worries that a
surrogate baby would have genetic ties to Ian but not to him. I think
this might be what David was thinking of in the first of his two posts
here. Neither Adam nor Jenny mentioned Ruairi in that conversation. I
thought that Jenny could have usefully mentioned him. There are certain
similarities in the two cases, but the new baby will always know that
Ian and Adam are his Daddy and Dad, and Adam has less reason to resent
the child's birth mother.
Except at some primitive level, this seems often more difficult for a male
than a female.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Vicky
2017-09-22 20:27:06 UTC
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Post by DavidK
Post by krw
Post by Vicky
Justin is ignoring the old adage - never mix business with pleasure -
at his perfil, Hence his offer to include Amside under the Damara
umbrella, a move that doesn't go down well with Lilian, who's already
smarting at his suggestion that she recruits a wedding planner.
Justin is an absolute control freak - in many ways it is far more hidden
than Rob but it is a very similar approach in making her entirely
dependent on him.  Surely she is too old to fall for it?
But we said that about Helen and now she is getting the turkey baster
out again.
It's perhaps unfair; but I wonder if Ian has ever thought about the
parallel between his asking Adam to bring up Ian's child and Brian
asking Jennifer to bring up Rory? I'm not saying they are the same, but
Adam has already pointed out to someone else that the tie between Ian
and their child will be genetic and stronger than that between Adam and
child.
If Helen were to be the surrogate-mother genetically then Adam would
have some genetic relationship with the child. It would be his
1st-cousin once-removed I think.
Do we not need the spoiler space?
I think having Helen living close and in the family will be
complicated. Will she breast feed the baby? We know it's best for the
child. I suppose she could express the milk and let Ian feed it. I
don't think I could go through pregnancy and birth and hand the baby
over. Will she be able to or try and erase the bad memories of last
time by keeping it? And it need not be her egg, need it? And won't
she be tempted to monitor and maybe interfere with it's upbringing?
--
Vicky
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-09-24 21:35:02 UTC
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In message <***@4ax.com>, Vicky
<***@gmail.com> writes:
[]
Post by Vicky
I think having Helen living close and in the family will be
complicated. Will she breast feed the baby? We know it's best for the
child. I suppose she could express the milk and let Ian feed it. I
don't think I could go through pregnancy and birth and hand the baby
over. Will she be able to or try and erase the bad memories of last
time by keeping it? And it need not be her egg, need it? And won't
she be tempted to monitor and maybe interfere with it's upbringing?
Well, she'd input - as would all the family - whether it's "her" baby or
not; that's what families do. OK, if it was "hers", she might think she
has more right to comment/interfere.

And if it was Helen would they do the insemination formally via a clinic
or something, or more traditionally? I _suspect_ not the latter, as Adam
might want to be present, and I don't think the PTB would stretch _that_
far.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Kylie may have the world's most beautiful bottom, but the important thing is -
she never, ever talks out of it. - Kathy Lette, RT 2014/1/11-17
Vicky
2017-09-24 21:43:06 UTC
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On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 22:35:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
And if it was Helen would they do the insemination formally via a clinic
or something, or more traditionally? I _suspect_ not the latter, as Adam
might want to be present, and I don't think the PTB would stretch _that_
far.
PTB?
--
Vicky
John Ashby
2017-09-25 09:35:52 UTC
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Post by Vicky
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 22:35:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
And if it was Helen would they do the insemination formally via a clinic
or something, or more traditionally? I _suspect_ not the latter, as Adam
might want to be present, and I don't think the PTB would stretch _that_
far.
PTB?
Powers That Be, as opposed to the Personality Transplant Fairy and her
apian helper the Personality Transplant Bee.

john
Mike
2017-09-25 11:46:39 UTC
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Post by John Ashby
Post by Vicky
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 22:35:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
And if it was Helen would they do the insemination formally via a clinic
or something, or more traditionally? I _suspect_ not the latter, as Adam
might want to be present, and I don't think the PTB would stretch _that_
far.
PTB?
Powers That Be, as opposed to the Personality Transplant Fairy and her
apian helper the Personality Transplant Bee.
john
There’s a sting in the tail there honey.
--
Toodle Pip
Btms
2017-09-24 21:53:38 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
And if it was Helen would they do the insemination formally via a clinic
or something, or more traditionally? I _suspect_ not the latter, as Adam
might want to be present, and I don't think the PTB would stretch _that_
far.
You have not considered the turkey baster?
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-09-24 21:59:40 UTC
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In message
Post by Btms
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
And if it was Helen would they do the insemination formally via a clinic
or something, or more traditionally? I _suspect_ not the latter, as Adam
might want to be present, and I don't think the PTB would stretch _that_
far.
(Powers That Be)
Post by Btms
You have not considered the turkey baster?
Well, I was thinking of that as part of "formally via a clinic". I was
really just wondering if one or both of the parties - Ian or Helen -
would consider (or even prefer?) the conventional method rather than
_any_ of the alternatives.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You make it from scratch?
Yep.
Do you make your own scratch?
--
"pyotr filipivich" in alt.windows7.general 2017-5-20
Penny
2017-09-25 08:51:13 UTC
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On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 22:59:40 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
I was
really just wondering if one or both of the parties - Ian or Helen -
would consider (or even prefer?) the conventional method rather than
_any_ of the alternatives.
I wouldn't have thought it would appeal to either of them.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Mike
2017-09-25 09:03:14 UTC
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Post by Penny
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 22:59:40 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
I was
really just wondering if one or both of the parties - Ian or Helen -
would consider (or even prefer?) the conventional method rather than
_any_ of the alternatives.
I wouldn't have thought it would appeal to either of them.
I feel sure Brritski will be along with an ejaculation shortly...
--
Toodle Pip
BrritSki
2017-09-25 09:26:07 UTC
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Post by Mike
Post by Penny
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 22:59:40 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
I was
really just wondering if one or both of the parties - Ian or Helen -
would consider (or even prefer?) the conventional method rather than
_any_ of the alternatives.
I wouldn't have thought it would appeal to either of them.
I feel sure Brritski will be along with an ejaculation shortly...
I feel my ejaculating days [1] have come to an end....

[1] and nights
Mike
2017-09-25 11:45:15 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Post by Mike
Post by Penny
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 22:59:40 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
I was
really just wondering if one or both of the parties - Ian or Helen -
would consider (or even prefer?) the conventional method rather than
_any_ of the alternatives.
I wouldn't have thought it would appeal to either of them.
I feel sure Brritski will be along with an ejaculation shortly...
I feel my ejaculating days [1] have come to an end....
[1] and nights
:-(
--
Toodle Pip
Marjorie
2017-09-26 08:22:54 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Vicky
I think having Helen living close and in the family will be
complicated. Will she breast feed the baby? We know it's best for the
child. I suppose she could express the milk and let Ian feed it. I
don't think I could go through pregnancy and birth and hand the baby
over.  Will she be able to or try  and erase the bad memories of last
time by keeping it? And it need not be her egg, need it?  And won't
she be tempted to monitor and maybe interfere with it's upbringing?
Well, she'd input - as would all the family - whether it's "her" baby or
not; that's what families do. OK, if it was "hers", she might think she
has more right to comment/interfere.
It was Helen who planted the seed (!) of the idea in Ian's mind that
having one's own baby was different and better than adopting someone
else's. It was as if she was setting this up even then, and waiting for
the obvious "solution" to present itself.

She might even insist on keeping the baby (as is her right, legally),
either with or without some parental input from Ian and Adam. Especially
if it was a girl. Ian and Adam haven't a clue about baby care; they are
both close to 50 and have demanding jobs. She would (rightly) have
concerns when it came to handing them her newborn infant.

All in all, it's a very bad idea, and using a local person who's a
relative could make things even worse if it all goes wrong.

If Ian is so keen on children, he could spend more time with Helen and
her boys, who are unlikely ever to have a proper father now. Adam has
never shown any interest in small children, that I can recall - he just
wants to indulge Ian and and let him have what he wants, just as Brian
let Jenny have her new kitchen.
--
Marjorie

To reply, replace dontusethisaddress with marje
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-09-26 10:38:37 UTC
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In message <xbCdnXOvB-***@brightview.co.uk>, Marjorie
<***@springequinox.co.uk> writes:
[]
Post by Marjorie
It was Helen who planted the seed (!) of the idea in Ian's mind that
having one's own baby was different and better than adopting someone
else's. It was as if she was setting this up even then, and waiting for
the obvious "solution" to present itself.
Interesting.
Post by Marjorie
She might even insist on keeping the baby (as is her right, legally),
either with or without some parental input from Ian and Adam.
Hmm.
Post by Marjorie
Especially if it was a girl. Ian and Adam haven't a clue about baby
care; they are both close to 50 and have demanding jobs. She would
Very true.
Post by Marjorie
(rightly) have concerns when it came to handing them her newborn
infant.
All in all, it's a very bad idea, and using a local person who's a
relative could make things even worse if it all goes wrong.
If Ian is so keen on children, he could spend more time with Helen and
her boys, who are unlikely ever to have a proper father now. Adam has
Rob will return, I'm sure, probably a few years down the line )-:.
Post by Marjorie
never shown any interest in small children, that I can recall - he just
Good point. I don't think they've even ever had a cat or dog, have they?
Post by Marjorie
wants to indulge Ian and and let him have what he wants, just as Brian
Yes, and be a martyr about it.
Post by Marjorie
let Jenny have her new kitchen.
An interesting parallel! Though in that case, I think it was mainly
about the money it cost (and a little inconvenience for a limited time).
A baby would be much more disruptive, and involve of course the next 20
or so years, if not the rest of their lives.
Thinking about which: if this idea does actually get off the ground,
Adam may change - not necessarily PTF, but some people _do_ change when
a child (or pet!) comes along; in ten, or five, years' time, it could be
Adam who's the parent, and Ian who loses interest/gets frustrated/whtevr
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I hope you dream a pig.
Mike
2017-09-26 16:07:00 UTC
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Post by Marjorie
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Vicky
I think having Helen living close and in the family will be
complicated. Will she breast feed the baby? We know it's best for the
child. I suppose she could express the milk and let Ian feed it. I
don't think I could go through pregnancy and birth and hand the baby
over.  Will she be able to or try  and erase the bad memories of last
time by keeping it? And it need not be her egg, need it?  And won't
she be tempted to monitor and maybe interfere with it's upbringing?
Well, she'd input - as would all the family - whether it's "her" baby or
not; that's what families do. OK, if it was "hers", she might think she
has more right to comment/interfere.
It was Helen who planted the seed (!) of the idea in Ian's mind that
having one's own baby was different and better than adopting someone
else's. It was as if she was setting this up even then, and waiting for
the obvious "solution" to present itself.
She might even insist on keeping the baby (as is her right, legally),
either with or without some parental input from Ian and Adam. Especially
if it was a girl. Ian and Adam haven't a clue about baby care; they are
both close to 50 and have demanding jobs. She would (rightly) have
concerns when it came to handing them her newborn infant.
All in all, it's a very bad idea, and using a local person who's a
relative could make things even worse if it all goes wrong.
If Ian is so keen on children, he could spend more time with Helen and
her boys, who are unlikely ever to have a proper father now. Adam has
never shown any interest in small children, that I can recall - he just
wants to indulge Ian and and let him have what he wants, just as Brian
let Jenny have her new kitchen.
Yes, Adam and small children may not be a good combination; Ian on the
other hand could develop no end of recipes for boys or girls and Adam could
supply all the vegetables and herbs...
--
Toodle Pip
Btms
2017-09-26 19:46:43 UTC
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Post by Mike
Post by Marjorie
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Vicky
I think having Helen living close and in the family will be
complicated. Will she breast feed the baby? We know it's best for the
child. I suppose she could express the milk and let Ian feed it. I
don't think I could go through pregnancy and birth and hand the baby
over.  Will she be able to or try  and erase the bad memories of last
time by keeping it? And it need not be her egg, need it?  And won't
she be tempted to monitor and maybe interfere with it's upbringing?
Well, she'd input - as would all the family - whether it's "her" baby or
not; that's what families do. OK, if it was "hers", she might think she
has more right to comment/interfere.
It was Helen who planted the seed (!) of the idea in Ian's mind that
having one's own baby was different and better than adopting someone
else's. It was as if she was setting this up even then, and waiting for
the obvious "solution" to present itself.
She might even insist on keeping the baby (as is her right, legally),
either with or without some parental input from Ian and Adam. Especially
if it was a girl. Ian and Adam haven't a clue about baby care; they are
both close to 50 and have demanding jobs. She would (rightly) have
concerns when it came to handing them her newborn infant.
All in all, it's a very bad idea, and using a local person who's a
relative could make things even worse if it all goes wrong.
If Ian is so keen on children, he could spend more time with Helen and
her boys, who are unlikely ever to have a proper father now. Adam has
never shown any interest in small children, that I can recall - he just
wants to indulge Ian and and let him have what he wants, just as Brian
let Jenny have her new kitchen.
Yes, Adam and small children may not be a good combination; Ian on the
other hand could develop no end of recipes for boys or girls and Adam could
supply all the vegetables and herbs...
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Min
2017-09-26 22:49:16 UTC
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Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
--
Min
Min
2017-09-26 22:51:57 UTC
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Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
--
Min
Btms
2017-09-27 06:42:03 UTC
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Post by Min
Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
Harsh but fair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Min
2017-09-30 00:43:41 UTC
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Post by Btms
Post by Min
Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
Harsh but fair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sorry, BTMS, at the risk of a <sniff>, I disagree...
--
Min
BrritSki
2017-09-30 06:25:53 UTC
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Post by Min
Post by Btms
Post by Min
Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
Harsh but fair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sorry, BTMS, at the risk of a <sniff>, I disagree...
So it was NOT harsh and was UNfair ? EMNTK
Mike
2017-09-30 07:03:15 UTC
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Post by Min
Post by Btms
Post by Min
Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
Harsh but fair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sorry, BTMS, at the risk of a <sniff>, I disagree...
Oooooh! Snipper riffles and lace handkerchiefs at 20 paces!!!
--
Toodle Pip
Btms
2017-09-30 07:30:15 UTC
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Post by Mike
Post by Min
Post by Btms
Post by Min
Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
Harsh but fair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sorry, BTMS, at the risk of a <sniff>, I disagree...
Oooooh! Snipper riffles and lace handkerchiefs at 20 paces!!!
You wish.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sally Thompson
2017-09-30 11:26:43 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Mike
Post by Min
Post by Btms
Post by Min
Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
Harsh but fair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sorry, BTMS, at the risk of a <sniff>, I disagree...
Oooooh! Snipper riffles and lace handkerchiefs at 20 paces!!!
Sniffs at dawn?
--
Sally in Shropshire, UK
Mike
2017-09-30 11:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sally Thompson
Post by Mike
Post by Min
Post by Btms
Post by Min
Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
Harsh but fair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sorry, BTMS, at the risk of a <sniff>, I disagree...
Oooooh! Snipper riffles and lace handkerchiefs at 20 paces!!!
Sniffs at dawn?
ITYM snuffed at dawn😉;-)
--
Toodle Pip
Btms
2017-09-30 07:30:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Min
Post by Btms
Post by Min
Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
Harsh but fair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sorry, BTMS, at the risk of a <sniff>, I disagree...
Obviously you do. “I’ve always wanted” is the fashionable justification in
society for having one’s desires satisfied, as if a want equates to some
sort of right. Ian is an excellent example as is Helen. Children are not
commodities in my value system and I repeat I have not heard Ian speak of
what he and Adam can offer but only what he wants to have. This is also
what you quote in his defence.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Marjorie
2017-09-30 16:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Btms
Post by Min
Post by Btms
Post by Min
Post by Btms
What troubles me is Ian’s attitude, which sounds like a child as a
commodity in Ian’s world. Otoh maybe many parents are from the same mould.
But it sounds more like what he wants than what he can give.
Bit Harsh, I feel, BTMS! Didn't we establish the last time all this was
mooted that Ian was one of a big family and always wanted a child of his
own? (However, I discovered a few years ago that I am a Narcoleptic
with a side order of Cataplexy, so I may have dreamed this....)
Harsh but fair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sorry, BTMS, at the risk of a <sniff>, I disagree...
Obviously you do. “I’ve always wanted” is the fashionable justification in
society for having one’s desires satisfied, as if a want equates to some
sort of right. Ian is an excellent example as is Helen. Children are not
commodities in my value system and I repeat I have not heard Ian speak of
what he and Adam can offer but only what he wants to have. This is also
what you quote in his defence.
Anyway, if he "always wanted" a baby, why did he marry a man who did
not, and then take about ten years to remember that this was what he
wanted most in the world, when they're both 50-ish?

I disliked those discussions in which the baby was spoken about as if it
was some sort of treat, like a new car or a holiday, which Ian
reallyreally wanted, and Adam agreed to let him have, as a reward for
Adam's having been unfaithful in the past.
--
Marjorie

To reply, replace dontusethisaddress with marje
Fenny
2017-09-30 18:59:41 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 17:00:16 +0100, Marjorie
Post by Marjorie
Obviously you do. “I’ve always wanted” is the fashionable justification in
society for having one’s desires satisfied, as if a want equates to some
sort of right. Ian is an excellent example as is Helen. Children are not
commodities in my value system and I repeat I have not heard Ian speak of
what he and Adam can offer but only what he wants to have. This is also
what you quote in his defence.
Anyway, if he "always wanted" a baby, why did he marry a man who did
not, and then take about ten years to remember that this was what he
wanted most in the world, when they're both 50-ish?
I disliked those discussions in which the baby was spoken about as if it
was some sort of treat, like a new car or a holiday, which Ian
reallyreally wanted, and Adam agreed to let him have, as a reward for
Adam's having been unfaithful in the past.
I agree with all of this. In the conversations, both Ian and Adam
have talked about having "a child". Not "a baby" or "a family", but
"a child".

Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
but I really don't see him as being able to give up his work and stay
home with a tiny (or larger) human all day and then deal with Adam in
the evenings.

More than 30 years ago, I expected my future life to involve marriage
and children. It hasn't done, but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly
going to decide that I *must* acquire a child in order for my life to
be complete. Apart from anything else, I'm too damn tired most of the
time and having another life form around the house demanding attention
and effort is not going to improve that feeling.
--
Fenny
Vicky
2017-09-30 20:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 19:59:41 +0100, Fenny
Post by Fenny
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 17:00:16 +0100, Marjorie
Post by Marjorie
Obviously you do. “I’ve always wanted” is the fashionable justification in
society for having one’s desires satisfied, as if a want equates to some
sort of right. Ian is an excellent example as is Helen. Children are not
commodities in my value system and I repeat I have not heard Ian speak of
what he and Adam can offer but only what he wants to have. This is also
what you quote in his defence.
Anyway, if he "always wanted" a baby, why did he marry a man who did
not, and then take about ten years to remember that this was what he
wanted most in the world, when they're both 50-ish?
Well, Ian is gay and so was not able to marry a woman, so he married
Adam. That doesn't mean they can't use other methods to have children.
Helen didn't marry a man to have her first child. She used other
methods.
Post by Fenny
Post by Marjorie
I disliked those discussions in which the baby was spoken about as if it
was some sort of treat, like a new car or a holiday, which Ian
reallyreally wanted, and Adam agreed to let him have, as a reward for
Adam's having been unfaithful in the past.
That's a reason for having a baby that I think is wrong too. Adam
shouldn't have tl LET Ian have a child. It should be something they
both agree on, and not as reparation for adultery. Although, to be
fair, heterosexual couples use having a baby as a way to patch up a
marriage with problems too.
Post by Fenny
I agree with all of this. In the conversations, both Ian and Adam
have talked about having "a child". Not "a baby" or "a family", but
"a child".
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
but I really don't see him as being able to give up his work and stay
home with a tiny (or larger) human all day and then deal with Adam in
the evenings.
I don't think either of them has to give up work to look after the
child. There is usually a statuary entitlement to time off after
having a child. I'm not sure how that applies to whichever is supposed
to be the mother in this relationship, and if it applies to same sex
couples. After that it is, as with Emma and Helen, a matter of
arranging childcare.
Post by Fenny
More than 30 years ago, I expected my future life to involve marriage
and children. It hasn't done, but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly
going to decide that I *must* acquire a child in order for my life to
be complete. Apart from anything else, I'm too damn tired most of the
time and having another life form around the house demanding attention
and effort is not going to improve that feeling.
--
Vicky
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-10-01 00:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vicky
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 19:59:41 +0100, Fenny
Post by Fenny
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 17:00:16 +0100, Marjorie
[]
Post by Vicky
Post by Fenny
Post by Marjorie
Anyway, if he "always wanted" a baby, why did he marry a man who did
not, and then take about ten years to remember that this was what he
wanted most in the world, when they're both 50-ish?
Well, Ian is gay and so was not able to marry a woman, so he married
Adam. That doesn't mean they can't use other methods to have children.
I don't think it was the physical inability Marjorie was talking about,
but Adam's lack of desire for them.
Post by Vicky
Helen didn't marry a man to have her first child. She used other
methods.
(Yes, but she _wanted_ one.)
Post by Vicky
Post by Fenny
Post by Marjorie
I disliked those discussions in which the baby was spoken about as if it
was some sort of treat, like a new car or a holiday, which Ian
reallyreally wanted, and Adam agreed to let him have, as a reward for
Adam's having been unfaithful in the past.
That's a reason for having a baby that I think is wrong too. Adam
shouldn't have tl LET Ian have a child. It should be something they
both agree on, and not as reparation for adultery. Although, to be
I thoroughly agree. They should both be totally committed to the idea.
Post by Vicky
fair, heterosexual couples use having a baby as a way to patch up a
marriage with problems too.
Or try to - usually (from fiction, anyway; I have no idea whether in
fact) with fairly unsatisfactory results.
Post by Vicky
Post by Fenny
I agree with all of this. In the conversations, both Ian and Adam
have talked about having "a child". Not "a baby" or "a family", but
"a child".
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
but I really don't see him as being able to give up his work and stay
home with a tiny (or larger) human all day and then deal with Adam in
the evenings.
No, he (I think) likes his job despite various things he moans
about/that worry him concerning it. And could they afford him to anyway.
Post by Vicky
I don't think either of them has to give up work to look after the
child. There is usually a statuary entitlement to time off after
having a child. I'm not sure how that applies to whichever is supposed
to be the mother in this relationship, and if it applies to same sex
I _thought_ it had recently been in theory made gender-neutral, such
that either the father or the mother (in a conventional couple) could
take the time off; there are difficulties where (as is probably the case
more often than not) they have different employers, and I don't know how
this has been resolved (if it has).
Post by Vicky
couples. After that it is, as with Emma and Helen, a matter of
If it _doesn't_ apply to same-sex couples, I imagine the gay movement
would be (fairly justifiably, IMO) up in arms.
Post by Vicky
arranging childcare.
Would Emma be willing (or even able, now she's got growing children and
already doing three jobs IIRR)? Though one would imagine there might be
someone in Ambridge - it has many residents we don't hear from, so maybe
we'll get a new character. Though at present it looks like it's well
over 9 months before it'll be needed, if ever. (Though if something does
go ahead, it's something they should think about _before_ it's needed.
Though probably won't.)
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Quantity is no substitute for quality, but it's the only one we've got.
Vicky
2017-10-01 08:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 01:07:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Would Emma be willing (or even able, now she's got growing children and
already doing three jobs IIRR)? Though one would imagine there might be
someone in Ambridge - it has many residents we don't hear from, so maybe
I didn't mean Emma would look after the baby, but that she and Helen
had a similar problem of childcare and I don't think she's looking
after Helen's children now.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Vicky
Post by Marjorie
Anyway, if he "always wanted" a baby, why did he marry a man who did
not, and then take about ten years to remember that this was what he
wanted most in the world, when they're both 50-ish?
Many couples marry without deciding whether they want children. Gay
couples might do it more often than hetero ones. He didn't take 10
years as they tried before. They had a bad experience and gave up.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Vicky
Well, Ian is gay and so was not able to marry a woman, so he married
Adam. That doesn't mean they can't use other methods to have children.
don't think it was the physical inability Marjorie was talking about,
but Adam's lack of desire for them.
Helen didn't marry a man to have her first child. She used other
methods.
(Yes, but she _wanted_ one.)
So does Ian.
--
Vicky
Marjorie
2017-10-01 10:53:14 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Vicky
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 19:59:41 +0100, Fenny
Post by Fenny
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 17:00:16 +0100, Marjorie
[]
Post by Vicky
Post by Fenny
Post by Marjorie
Anyway, if he "always wanted" a baby, why did he marry a man who did
not, and then take about ten years to remember that this was what he
wanted most in the world, when they're both 50-ish?
Well, Ian is gay and so was not able to marry a woman, so he married
Adam. That doesn't mean they can't use other methods to have children.
I don't think it was the physical inability Marjorie was talking about,
but Adam's lack of desire for them.
Exactly. If having a family is very important to you, this is something
you should discuss before marriage, rather than many years after
settling down together. Ian and Adam were civilly-partnered and then
later decided to get married, so there were two points at which they
could and should have considered what they wanted from their life together.

The difference with hetero couples is that in many cases they sort of
stumble into parenthood as a natural consequence of their intimacy. In
the case of a gay couple, this is not going to happen; acquiring a child
is going to require cooperation from third parties and professionals,
and it's something you actively have to seek out. All the more reason to
discuss, at an early stage, whether this is something you both want to do.
--
Marjorie

To reply, replace dontusethisaddress with marje
Sally Thompson
2017-10-01 11:26:39 UTC
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Post by Marjorie
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I don't think it was the physical inability Marjorie was talking about,
but Adam's lack of desire for them.
Exactly. If having a family is very important to you, this is something
you should discuss before marriage, rather than many years after
settling down together. Ian and Adam were civilly-partnered and then
later decided to get married, so there were two points at which they
could and should have considered what they wanted from their life together.
The difference with hetero couples is that in many cases they sort of
stumble into parenthood as a natural consequence of their intimacy. In
the case of a gay couple, this is not going to happen; acquiring a child
is going to require cooperation from third parties and professionals,
and it's something you actively have to seek out. All the more reason to
discuss, at an early stage, whether this is something you both want to do.
Very well put IMO.
--
Sally in Shropshire, UK
Fenny
2017-10-02 20:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vicky
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
but I really don't see him as being able to give up his work and stay
home with a tiny (or larger) human all day and then deal with Adam in
the evenings.
I don't think either of them has to give up work to look after the
child. There is usually a statuary entitlement to time off after
having a child. I'm not sure how that applies to whichever is supposed
to be the mother in this relationship, and if it applies to same sex
couples. After that it is, as with Emma and Helen, a matter of
arranging childcare.
Regardless of rules around parental leave, I still don't think either
Adam or Ian is capable of not working - which is what I mean by "give
up his work". Ian is enough of a whiner about Adam's work that he
will struggle to have nothing but the company of a human all day and
then have to cope with Adam coming home late and complaining about the
place being a mess.
--
Fenny
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-09-30 23:53:09 UTC
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In message <***@4ax.com>, Fenny
<***@removethis.onetel.net> writes:
[]
Post by Fenny
More than 30 years ago, I expected my future life to involve marriage
and children. It hasn't done, but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly
going to decide that I *must* acquire a child in order for my life to
Same here - nor a partner/companion/whatever. Well, I didn't _expect_
anything one way or the other, and it's turned out not that way, but I
don't see me suddenly going to develop a desire for either partner or
children. In fact, I think I'd find it very difficult now to live with
another person (and the certainly would with me) - especially these last
couple of weeks when I've been trying out retirement*, and finding it
very appealing (not having to get up is nice, but the real attraction is
not having _any_ commitment).
Post by Fenny
be complete. Apart from anything else, I'm too damn tired most of the
time and having another life form around the house demanding attention
and effort is not going to improve that feeling.
Definitely.

* my car insurance is coming due: anyrats know which is likely to be
cheaper, saying I'm unemployed or saying I'm retired? (I could be
either, though I'm not looking hard for employment.) I suspect the
latter, due to prejudice, but that may not be the case.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Quantity is no substitute for quality, but it's the only one we've got.
Chris McMillan
2017-10-01 10:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Fenny
More than 30 years ago, I expected my future life to involve marriage
and children. It hasn't done, but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly
going to decide that I *must* acquire a child in order for my life to
Same here - nor a partner/companion/whatever. Well, I didn't _expect_
anything one way or the other, and it's turned out not that way, but I
don't see me suddenly going to develop a desire for either partner or
children. In fact, I think I'd find it very difficult now to live with
another person (and the certainly would with me) - especially these last
couple of weeks when I've been trying out retirement*, and finding it
very appealing (not having to get up is nice, but the real attraction is
not having _any_ commitment).
Post by Fenny
be complete. Apart from anything else, I'm too damn tired most of the
time and having another life form around the house demanding attention
and effort is not going to improve that feeling.
Definitely.
* my car insurance is coming due: anyrats know which is likely to be
cheaper, saying I'm unemployed or saying I'm retired? (I could be
either, though I'm not looking hard for employment.) I suspect the
latter, due to prejudice, but that may not be the case.
Oh, so the job you took recently hadn’t turned out to be what you hoped
for?

Sincerely Chris
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-10-01 13:15:29 UTC
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Raw Message
(This is entirely OT.)

In message <Y63AB.1135181$***@fx08.am4>, Chris McMillan
<***@ntlworld.com> writes:
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Oh, so the job you took recently hadn’t turned out to be what you hoped
for?
Sincerely Chris
On the contrary, there was quite a lot about it I liked. However, on
Thursday the 14th, they called me into the "office" (canteen area
upstairs) and handed me a letter saying "As you are aware, your
employment with the [sic] BBA Reman was subject to a probationary
period. Following regular reviews, your performance, unfortunately, has
not reached a satisfactory standard ...", and then went on to say,
basically, that they'd pay me for another month, but not to darken their
doors again ("gardening leave" - I wish they hadn't called it that, as
the marigolds [http://255soft.uk/marigold/] _do_ need attention!), and I
was escorted out (though in friendly enough manner).

I had had no idea this was going to happen; certainly nobody had
conveyed to me the results of these alleged "regular reviews". I don't
intend to challenge matters - it was nice (mostly, once the rap music
had been tamed) while it lasted, but I don't think there's any point in
working where one is not wanted (and I don't think employees have much
in the way of rights until they've been there two years these days). I
think the problem was they never conveyed to me clearly what they wanted
me to do. (That, like much of what went on there, was sort of assumed to
be absorbed somewhat osmotically; I think that's common in most
businesses, but there perhaps more than many.)

So I'm at present trying out retirement; on the whole, quite liking it -
certainly the not getting up, but also the knowledge that I have no
commitment, and can go, and do, things without having to make
arrangements. The only _slight_ minus is having to think more about what
to buy/eat (I hate cooking - the time it takes, mainly), but I can live
with that! I might eventually look for something (57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days), in case Brexit brings the country down around our
ears or the pension scheme (from the previous employer) (cuts in at 65 -
though I can take from it earlier, even now, at of course vastly reduced
rate) goes bust, but I'm not looking yet.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

As individuals, politicians are usually quite charming, so it is quite hard to
dislike them, but in most cases, it is worth making the effort.
- Mark Williams (UMRA), 2013-4-26
Mike
2017-10-01 15:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(This is entirely OT.)
So I'm at present trying out retirement; on the whole, quite liking it -
certainly the not getting up, but also the knowledge that I have no
commitment, and can go, and do, things without having to make
arrangements. The only _slight_ minus is having to think more about what
to buy/eat (I hate cooking - the time it takes, mainly), but I can live
with that! I might eventually look for something (57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days), in case Brexit brings the country down around our
ears or the pension scheme (from the previous employer) (cuts in at 65 -
though I can take from it earlier, even now, at of course vastly reduced
rate) goes bust, but I'm not looking yet.
I’ve had a full five years experiencing retirement and think it is the best
club I ever joined. Of course the cooking side of it is perhaps different
for me as I so enjoy it and now have the time to carefully choose my
vegetables, fruit, meat and fish and devise my menus according to
availability and then take my time in preparation and cooking. Some of the
goodies come from the garden and this I also have more time for as well.
:-)
--
Toodle Pip
Chris McMillan
2017-10-01 16:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(This is entirely OT.)
So I'm at present trying out retirement; on the whole, quite liking it -
certainly the not getting up, but also the knowledge that I have no
commitment, and can go, and do, things without having to make
arrangements. The only _slight_ minus is having to think more about what
to buy/eat (I hate cooking - the time it takes, mainly), but I can live
with that! I might eventually look for something (57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days), in case Brexit brings the country down around our
ears or the pension scheme (from the previous employer) (cuts in at 65 -
though I can take from it earlier, even now, at of course vastly reduced
rate) goes bust, but I'm not looking yet.
I’ve had a full five years experiencing retirement and think it is the best
club I ever joined. Of course the cooking side of it is perhaps different
for me as I so enjoy it and now have the time to carefully choose my
vegetables, fruit, meat and fish and devise my menus according to
availability and then take my time in preparation and cooking. Some of the
goodies come from the garden and this I also have more time for as well.
:-)
Merging threads. I got as far as taking a few photos of his carefully
prepared veg and cooking chicken and the pud when it was cooked, clean
forgot to take the cooked dishes - would have sent them over to our guest’s
parents as the mum has been to England and cooked for us in our kitchen.

Have two very special biscuits - a speciality from Xi’an - as our cake
though. Still wrapped though.

Flickr friends are being bored by my photos.

Sincerely Chris
Jim Easterbrook
2017-10-01 16:19:01 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days)
Having retired at 55 (3½ years ago) I have to disagree.
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
BrritSki
2017-10-01 19:04:17 UTC
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Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days)
Having retired at 55 (3½ years ago) I have to disagree.
I was 57 when I retired in 2004...
Btms
2017-10-01 19:38:23 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by BrritSki
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days)
Having retired at 55 (3½ years ago) I have to disagree.
I was 57 when I retired in 2004...
I was self employed so I don’t quite know when or how; no farewells; no
goodbyes.......... bit odd but don’t look over your shoulder jpg.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
BrritSki
2017-10-02 06:34:09 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days)
Having retired at 55 (3½ years ago) I have to disagree.
I was 57 when I retired in 2004...
I was self employed...
I was too, but I'd worked my whole 10 years as a contractor for Frod.
Earlier in the year that I retired they changed all our contracts from 1
month's notice to 10 days.

They were most put out when I exercised that new clause, but I was
generous "as you didn't state whether that was calendar or working days,
I will give you the benefit of doubt and leave in 2 weeks".

Guffaws from all my fellow contractors, one of whom is still there
having started there even before me !
Chris McMillan
2017-10-02 09:41:20 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days)
Having retired at 55 (3½ years ago) I have to disagree.
I was 57 when I retired in 2004...
I was self employed...
I was too, but I'd worked my whole 10 years as a contractor for Frod.
Earlier in the year that I retired they changed all our contracts from 1
month's notice to 10 days.
They were most put out when I exercised that new clause, but I was
generous "as you didn't state whether that was calendar or working days,
I will give you the benefit of doubt and leave in 2 weeks".
Guffaws from all my fellow contractors, one of whom is still there
having started there even before me !
Pure Chankel that!

Sincerely Chris
Jim Easterbrook
2017-10-01 20:49:37 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days)
Having retired at 55 (3½ years ago) I have to disagree.
I was 57 when I retired in 2004...
Varieties are the spice of life.
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
Mike
2017-10-01 21:09:06 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by BrritSki
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days)
Having retired at 55 (3½ years ago) I have to disagree.
I was 57 when I retired in 2004...
Varieties are the spice of life.
Do you have a sauce for that remark?
--
Toodle Pip
Chris McMillan
2017-10-01 16:37:52 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(This is entirely OT.)
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Oh, so the job you took recently hadn’t turned out to be what you hoped
for?
Sincerely Chris
On the contrary, there was quite a lot about it I liked. However, on
Thursday the 14th, they called me into the "office" (canteen area
upstairs) and handed me a letter saying "As you are aware, your
employment with the [sic] BBA Reman was subject to a probationary
period. Following regular reviews, your performance, unfortunately, has
not reached a satisfactory standard ...", and then went on to say,
basically, that they'd pay me for another month, but not to darken their
doors again ("gardening leave" - I wish they hadn't called it that, as
the marigolds [http://255soft.uk/marigold/] _do_ need attention!), and I
was escorted out (though in friendly enough manner).
I had had no idea this was going to happen; certainly nobody had
conveyed to me the results of these alleged "regular reviews". I don't
intend to challenge matters - it was nice (mostly, once the rap music
had been tamed) while it lasted, but I don't think there's any point in
working where one is not wanted (and I don't think employees have much
in the way of rights until they've been there two years these days). I
think the problem was they never conveyed to me clearly what they wanted
me to do. (That, like much of what went on there, was sort of assumed to
be absorbed somewhat osmotically; I think that's common in most
businesses, but there perhaps more than many.)
So I'm at present trying out retirement; on the whole, quite liking it -
certainly the not getting up, but also the knowledge that I have no
commitment, and can go, and do, things without having to make
arrangements. The only _slight_ minus is having to think more about what
to buy/eat (I hate cooking - the time it takes, mainly), but I can live
with that! I might eventually look for something (57 is a _bit_ early to
retire these days), in case Brexit brings the country down around our
ears or the pension scheme (from the previous employer) (cuts in at 65 -
though I can take from it earlier, even now, at of course vastly reduced
rate) goes bust, but I'm not looking yet.
You’ve plenty of hobbies, don’t see you as being bored.

Sincerely Chris
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-10-01 17:50:43 UTC
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Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(This is entirely OT.)
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
So I'm at present trying out retirement; on the whole, quite liking it -
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
You’ve plenty of hobbies, don’t see you as being bored.
Sincerely Chris
Certainly appreciating the implied good wishes from umrats! And Jim
(umrat, not snappy's father!) having retired at 55 is encouraging.

Yes - genealogy alone could fill the time, at least for some years, I
think.

Unlike in previous times, a person living alone doesn't have to be
thought as lonely, either: I have lots of online friends - many in UMRA,
but other 'groups too.

Turnpike says your apostrophe is non-ASCII.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

'It works for me' is not the same as it isn't broke - Kenn Villegas, 2010-2-19 in
https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2010/02/18/why-the-windows-registry-sucks-technically/
Penny
2017-10-01 18:44:16 UTC
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On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 18:50:43 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(This is entirely OT.)
[]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
So I'm at present trying out retirement; on the whole, quite liking it -
[]
You’ve plenty of hobbies, don’t see you as being bored.
Sincerely Chris
Certainly appreciating the implied good wishes from umrats! And Jim
(umrat, not snappy's father!) having retired at 55 is encouraging.
I'll add my good wishes. Speaking as someone who hasn't been in paid work
since shortly before I found umra (nearly 20 years ago!) I doubt you'll
have any trouble filling your days.

I think I have been missing the small amount of structure imposed by caring
for someone else lately and my motivation seems to have gone AWOL a bit but
I'm making some effort to remedy that (when fit enough). Establishing your
own routines to replace those previously imposed upon you is probably a
good plan if only because you may otherwise find you have a tendency never
to leave the house.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-10-01 18:58:53 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Penny
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 18:50:43 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Post by Penny
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Certainly appreciating the implied good wishes from umrats! And Jim
(umrat, not snappy's father!) having retired at 55 is encouraging.
I'll add my good wishes. Speaking as someone who hasn't been in paid work
since shortly before I found umra (nearly 20 years ago!) I doubt you'll
have any trouble filling your days.
I love the idea that you "found umra" - like people finding Jesus.
Post by Penny
I think I have been missing the small amount of structure imposed by caring
for someone else lately and my motivation seems to have gone AWOL a bit but
I'm making some effort to remedy that (when fit enough). Establishing your
own routines to replace those previously imposed upon you is probably a
good plan if only because you may otherwise find you have a tendency never
to leave the house.
Too late (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Old people today - they don't know they're born! They should stay where they
belong: on the main stage at Glastonbury. - The Now Show, 2015-7-10&11
Btms
2017-10-01 19:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Penny
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 18:50:43 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Post by Penny
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Certainly appreciating the implied good wishes from umrats! And Jim
(umrat, not snappy's father!) having retired at 55 is encouraging.
I'll add my good wishes. Speaking as someone who hasn't been in paid work
since shortly before I found umra (nearly 20 years ago!) I doubt you'll
have any trouble filling your days.
I love the idea that you "found umra" - like people finding Jesus.
Post by Penny
I think I have been missing the small amount of structure imposed by caring
for someone else lately and my motivation seems to have gone AWOL a bit but
I'm making some effort to remedy that (when fit enough). Establishing your
own routines to replace those previously imposed upon you is probably a
good plan if only because you may otherwise find you have a tendency never
to leave the house.
This is the transition. It is fine but you will need to get a grip.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Penny
2017-10-01 20:03:28 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 19:58:53 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by Penny
I think I have been missing the small amount of structure imposed by caring
for someone else lately and my motivation seems to have gone AWOL a bit but
I'm making some effort to remedy that (when fit enough). Establishing your
own routines to replace those previously imposed upon you is probably a
good plan if only because you may otherwise find you have a tendency never
to leave the house.
It isn't you know.
I've gone through periods when I've barely left the house but it really
isn't good for either mind or body. Even a short wander round the 'block'
can be helpful.

Of course if you do find yourself strapped for cash you can also save on
heating by haunting some public indoor space - libraries are useful for
genealogical research - and the brief times in the 'fresh air' may be
enough to keep vitamin D levels up :)
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
krw
2017-10-02 21:58:56 UTC
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Post by Penny
Even a short wander round the 'block'
can be helpful.
I agree. When we have dog(s) staying I find the necessity of walking
the animal(s) helps provide some structure to the day (most of them make
good nags until walked) which otherwise I allow the entire day to pass
having achieved nothing.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Mike
2017-10-02 22:18:40 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Even a short wander round the 'block'
can be helpful.
I agree. When we have dog(s) staying I find the necessity of walking
the animal(s) helps provide some structure to the day (most of them make
good nags until walked) which otherwise I allow the entire day to pass
having achieved nothing.
You mean that previous to their walkies, they are horses and then become
canine?!
--
Toodle Pip
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-10-03 00:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Even a short wander round the 'block'
can be helpful.
I agree. When we have dog(s) staying I find the necessity of walking
the animal(s) helps provide some structure to the day (most of them
make good nags until walked) which otherwise I allow the entire day to
pass having achieved nothing.
It always amuses me, this "walking" euphemism regarding dogs. OK, a bit
of exercise does them good, and their humans too - but that isn't the
primary purpose of the activity.

What you are doing, is emptying the dog(s).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

All that glitters has a high refractive index.
krw
2017-10-03 11:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Penny
Even a short wander round the 'block'
can be helpful.
I agree.  When we have dog(s) staying I find the necessity of walking
the animal(s) helps provide some structure to the day (most of them
make good nags until walked) which otherwise I allow the entire day to
pass having achieved nothing.
It always amuses me, this "walking" euphemism regarding dogs. OK, a bit
of exercise does them good, and their humans too - but that isn't the
primary purpose of the activity.
What you are doing, is emptying the dog(s).
The dogs frequently empty in the garden. The walk is for walking.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Btms
2017-10-01 19:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(This is entirely OT.)
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
So I'm at present trying out retirement; on the whole, quite liking it -
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
You’ve plenty of hobbies, don’t see you as being bored.
Sincerely Chris
Certainly appreciating the implied good wishes from umrats! And Jim
(umrat, not snappy's father!) having retired at 55 is encouraging.
Yes - genealogy alone could fill the time, at least for some years, I
think.
Unlike in previous times, a person living alone doesn't have to be
thought as lonely, either: I have lots of online friends - many in UMRA,
but other 'groups too.
Turnpike says your apostrophe is non-ASCII.
There is the transition point of course but when I heard folk saying how
busy their retirement was, I didnt believe them.

I DO NOW.

I encourage some voluntary work that suits your interests and time. I also
encourage making the weekends different from the weekdays. It is good to
have a schedule but it can be of one’s choosing when retired.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sally Thompson
2017-10-01 19:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Btms
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(This is entirely OT.)
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
So I'm at present trying out retirement; on the whole, quite liking it -
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
You’ve plenty of hobbies, don’t see you as being bored.
Sincerely Chris
Certainly appreciating the implied good wishes from umrats! And Jim
(umrat, not snappy's father!) having retired at 55 is encouraging.
Yes - genealogy alone could fill the time, at least for some years, I
think.
Unlike in previous times, a person living alone doesn't have to be
thought as lonely, either: I have lots of online friends - many in UMRA,
but other 'groups too.
Turnpike says your apostrophe is non-ASCII.
There is the transition point of course but when I heard folk saying how
busy their retirement was, I didnt believe them.
I DO NOW.
I encourage some voluntary work that suits your interests and time. I also
encourage making the weekends different from the weekdays. It is good to
have a schedule but it can be of one’s choosing when retired.
Can I also recommend joining U3A if you have a local branch. Many interests
there, intelligent conversation, and it saved my sanity when I very
suddenly went from a demanding successful job to talking to the cat.
--
Sally in Shropshire, UK
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-10-01 20:07:43 UTC
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In message
<691861137.528578199.258763.poppy-***@news.eternal-september.o
rg>, Btms <***@thetames.me.uk> writes:
[]
Post by Btms
There is the transition point of course but when I heard folk saying how
busy their retirement was, I didnt believe them.
I DO NOW.
For the last - I'm not sure, possibly year - I've been increasingly
thinking that I don't have enough time to do the things I want to do. So
I can quite understand this.
Post by Btms
I encourage some voluntary work that suits your interests and time. I also
May seem a bit selfish, but at present, I want to enjoy lack of any
commitment - paid or otherwise. Voluntary work (or indeed paid again)
may come in time.
Post by Btms
encourage making the weekends different from the weekdays. It is good to
have a schedule but it can be of one’s choosing when retired.
Well, I've only had two weekends, but I've maintained my usual pattern -
shopping (including a McDonalds or similar) on Saturday, steak on Sunday
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Advertising is legalized lying. - H.G. Wells
Btms
2017-10-01 20:31:32 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]
Post by Btms
There is the transition point of course but when I heard folk saying how
busy their retirement was, I didnt believe them.
I DO NOW.
For the last - I'm not sure, possibly year - I've been increasingly
thinking that I don't have enough time to do the things I want to do. So
I can quite understand this.
Post by Btms
I encourage some voluntary work that suits your interests and time. I also
May seem a bit selfish, but at present, I want to enjoy lack of any
commitment - paid or otherwise. Voluntary work (or indeed paid again)
may come in time.
Post by Btms
encourage making the weekends different from the weekdays. It is good to
have a schedule but it can be of one’s choosing when retired.
Well, I've only had two weekends, but I've maintained my usual pattern -
shopping (including a McDonalds or similar) on Saturday, steak on Sunday
Ooooh yes.....do take some space before offering you time/skills. I just
meant to keep an eye on yourself abd look for a rewarding schedule in due
course. Didn’t mean to pressurise. Enjoy having your time for you.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
LFS
2017-10-02 16:51:26 UTC
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Post by Btms
There is the transition point of course but when I heard folk saying how
busy their retirement was, I didnt believe them.
I DO NOW.
Oh yes. And to think that I always wondered why retired people needed to
take holidays...
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
krw
2017-10-02 22:00:19 UTC
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And to think that I always wondered why retired people needed to take
holidays
The wofe insists on those because she likes travelling - well not the
travelling so much as seeing places.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Sally Thompson
2017-10-01 19:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(This is entirely OT.)
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
So I'm at present trying out retirement; on the whole, quite liking it -
[]
Post by Chris McMillan
You’ve plenty of hobbies, don’t see you as being bored.
Sincerely Chris
Certainly appreciating the implied good wishes from umrats! And Jim
(umrat, not snappy's father!) having retired at 55 is encouraging.
Yes - genealogy alone could fill the time, at least for some years, I
think.
Unlike in previous times, a person living alone doesn't have to be
thought as lonely, either: I have lots of online friends - many in UMRA,
but other 'groups too.
I was medically retired at 51, and apart for the medical reasons I say go
for it!
--
Sally in Shropshire, UK
Serena Blanchflower
2017-10-02 13:29:03 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Certainly appreciating the implied good wishes from umrats! And Jim
(umrat, not snappy's father!) having retired at 55 is encouraging.
Good wishes from this direction, as well!
--
Best wishes, Serena
I tried to catch some fog, but I mist
Nick Odell
2017-10-01 11:46:48 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Fenny
More than 30 years ago, I expected my future life to involve marriage
and children.  It hasn't done, but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly
going to decide that I *must* acquire a child in order for my life to
Same here - nor a partner/companion/whatever. Well, I didn't _expect_
anything one way or the other, and it's turned out not that way, but I
don't see me suddenly going to develop a desire for either partner or
children. In fact, I think I'd find it very difficult now to live with
another person (and the certainly would with me) - especially these last
couple of weeks when I've been trying out retirement*, and finding it
very appealing (not having to get up is nice, but the real attraction is
not having _any_ commitment).
Post by Fenny
be complete.  Apart from anything else, I'm too damn tired most of the
time and having another life form around the house demanding attention
and effort is not going to improve that feeling.
Definitely.
* my car insurance is coming due: anyrats know which is likely to be
cheaper, saying I'm unemployed or saying I'm retired? (I could be
either, though I'm not looking hard for employment.) I suspect the
latter, due to prejudice, but that may not be the case.
IANAdriver but I find that for other forms of insurance, walking in to
an insurance broker and seeing what they can do for me works pretty
well. Incidentally, I'm guessing that "retired" will work better, but
that's only a guess based on crude stereotyping

Nick
Btms
2017-10-01 12:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Fenny
More than 30 years ago, I expected my future life to involve marriage
and children.  It hasn't done, but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly
going to decide that I *must* acquire a child in order for my life to
Same here - nor a partner/companion/whatever. Well, I didn't _expect_
anything one way or the other, and it's turned out not that way, but I
don't see me suddenly going to develop a desire for either partner or
children. In fact, I think I'd find it very difficult now to live with
another person (and the certainly would with me) - especially these last
couple of weeks when I've been trying out retirement*, and finding it
very appealing (not having to get up is nice, but the real attraction is
not having _any_ commitment).
Post by Fenny
be complete.  Apart from anything else, I'm too damn tired most of the
time and having another life form around the house demanding attention
and effort is not going to improve that feeling.
Definitely.
* my car insurance is coming due: anyrats know which is likely to be
cheaper, saying I'm unemployed or saying I'm retired? (I could be
either, though I'm not looking hard for employment.) I suspect the
latter, due to prejudice, but that may not be the case.
IANAdriver but I find that for other forms of insurance, walking in to
an insurance broker and seeing what they can do for me works pretty
well. Incidentally, I'm guessing that "retired" will work better, but
that's only a guess based on crude stereotyping
Nick
But only if it true. it sounds uncertain but I guess if one is retired one
will not drive in the busy times. However, do retired folk drive more or
less? There is the age factor too of course.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-10-01 13:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[]
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
* my car insurance is coming due: anyrats know which is likely to be
cheaper, saying I'm unemployed or saying I'm retired? (I could be
either, though I'm not looking hard for employment.) I suspect the
latter, due to prejudice, but that may not be the case.
IANAdriver but I find that for other forms of insurance, walking in to
an insurance broker and seeing what they can do for me works pretty
well. Incidentally, I'm guessing that "retired" will work better, but
that's only a guess based on crude stereotyping
Nick
I was guessing the same sort of sterotyping/prejudice, but I would
_hope_ at least that it's more based on hard statistics. Though from
previous experience with insurers, I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't
that logical.

My mileage will drop to a third of what it was, which should make some
difference. And a lesser proportion (almost none) at peak hours, too.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

As individuals, politicians are usually quite charming, so it is quite hard to
dislike them, but in most cases, it is worth making the effort.
- Mark Williams (UMRA), 2013-4-26
krw
2017-10-02 21:52:07 UTC
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Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Btms
2017-10-02 22:01:20 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Really? What on earth is the chef doing at front of house. Sometimes, I
despair.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Mike
2017-10-02 22:20:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Btms
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Really? What on earth is the chef doing at front of house. Sometimes, I
despair.
Perhaps he has to choux them how it is done.... bit of a sauce really.
--
Toodle Pip
krw
2017-10-02 22:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Btms
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Really? What on earth is the chef doing at front of house. Sometimes, I
despair.
Well normally a chef is responsible for the entire restaurant so front
of house manager reports to him. But it does depend on the
establishment as the FoHM might be the owner who employs the chef.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Btms
2017-10-03 07:12:29 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Btms
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Really? What on earth is the chef doing at front of house. Sometimes, I
despair.
Well normally a chef is responsible for the entire restaurant so front
of house manager reports to him. But it does depend on the
establishment as the FoHM might be the owner who employs the chef.
But GG is a hotel; would the hierarchy be the same? I would expect them to
both be heads of departments with liaison between. Not being managed by
the Head Chef.
, who has enoug( to do?
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
krw
2017-10-03 08:42:00 UTC
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Post by Btms
But GG is a hotel; would the hierarchy be the same? I would expect them to
both be heads of departments with liaison between. Not being managed by
the Head Chef.
, who has enoug( to do?
If the restaurant in a hotel is (as is often the case these days)
branded in some way to give prominence to the resident chef or they
promote his name as being responsible then I would expect FOHM or Maitre
d' to report to the chef. I would expect this because the serving
standards and staffing should reflect the experience the named cook is
seeking to achieve overall.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-10-03 12:19:53 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Btms
But GG is a hotel; would the hierarchy be the same? I would expect them to
both be heads of departments with liaison between. Not being managed by
the Head Chef.
, who has enoug( to do?
If the restaurant in a hotel is (as is often the case these days)
branded in some way to give prominence to the resident chef or they
promote his name as being responsible then I would expect FOHM or
Maitre d' to report to the chef. I would expect this because the
serving standards and staffing should reflect the experience the named
cook is seeking to achieve overall.
Though we haven't heard that the GG restaurant is being branded as "the
Ian Umbrella" restaurant, I don't think.

Many hotel restaurants (if not all) offer meals to other than hotel
guests - GG certainly does, as we've occasionally heard various
characters go there just for a meal; therefore they would (often) have
their own front-of-house, to greet people just coming in to eat.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Radio 4 is the civilising influence in this country ... I think it is the most
important institution in this country. - John Humphrys, Radio Times 7-13/06/2003
Fenny
2017-10-03 21:06:56 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Je reste ma valise.
--
Fenny
Vicky
2017-10-03 21:58:50 UTC
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On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 22:06:56 +0100, Fenny
Post by Fenny
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Je reste ma valise.
Unbelievable was OLIVER offering to help!
--
Vicky
Penny
2017-10-03 22:46:32 UTC
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Raw Message
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 22:58:50 +0100, Vicky <***@gmail.com> scrawled
in the dust...
Post by Vicky
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 22:06:56 +0100, Fenny
Post by Fenny
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Je reste ma valise.
Unbelievable was OLIVER offering to help!
I didn't find that unbelievable at all. I think he could be very good at
calming the situation when customers get angry. Who hired the idiot Joe
anyway?
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2017-10-04 00:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Penny
in the dust...
Post by Vicky
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 22:06:56 +0100, Fenny
Post by Fenny
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Je reste ma valise.
Unbelievable was OLIVER offering to help!
I didn't find that unbelievable at all. I think he could be very good at
+1: he _was_ there, and he does own the place after all.
Post by Penny
calming the situation when customers get angry. Who hired the idiot Joe
anyway?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

There's not an app for that.
Vicky
2017-10-04 06:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 01:57:03 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Penny
in the dust...
Post by Vicky
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 22:06:56 +0100, Fenny
Post by Fenny
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Je reste ma valise.
Unbelievable was OLIVER offering to help!
I didn't find that unbelievable at all. I think he could be very good at
+1: he _was_ there, and he does own the place after all.
Post by Penny
calming the situation when customers get angry. Who hired the idiot Joe
anyway?
Yes but he just arrived from flying in from Italy and I know how I
feel after a flight, and I am probably a similar age.
--
Vicky
krw
2017-10-04 09:57:37 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Vicky
and I know how I
feel after a flight,
Try yellow fever vaccine. Dosed last week and lost a night's sleep last
night - either the shivers or overheated. Headache in the middle of the
night and washed out this morning.

Are holidays wurf it?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Btms
2017-10-04 16:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by krw
Post by Vicky
and I know how I
feel after a flight,
Try yellow fever vaccine. Dosed last week and lost a night's sleep last
night - either the shivers or overheated. Headache in the middle of the
night and washed out this morning.
Are holidays wurf it?
Very worth it at Hell Bay 😄
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Fenny
2017-10-04 17:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by krw
Try yellow fever vaccine. Dosed last week and lost a night's sleep last
night - either the shivers or overheated. Headache in the middle of the
night and washed out this morning.
Try being female of "a certain age". Disturbed sleep due to
overheating goes on relentlessly for more than a little time. And my
migraines seem to be more frequent - although fortunately the new meds
seem to see them off more quickly.
--
Fenny
krw
2017-10-04 20:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fenny
Post by krw
Try yellow fever vaccine. Dosed last week and lost a night's sleep last
night - either the shivers or overheated. Headache in the middle of the
night and washed out this morning.
Try being female of "a certain age". Disturbed sleep due to
overheating goes on relentlessly for more than a little time. And my
migraines seem to be more frequent - although fortunately the new meds
seem to see them off more quickly.
I have had some years with a wife of various ages. So do know about it.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Btms
2017-10-04 22:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Post by krw
Try yellow fever vaccine. Dosed last week and lost a night's sleep last
night - either the shivers or overheated. Headache in the middle of the
night and washed out this morning.
Try being female of "a certain age". Disturbed sleep due to
overheating goes on relentlessly for more than a little time. And my
migraines seem to be more frequent - although fortunately the new meds
seem to see them off more quickly.
I have had some years with a wife of various ages. So do know about it.
Whereas, I know nothing of it. Seriously, I don’t. Surely I am not so
unusual?
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Penny
2017-10-04 23:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 18:04:36 +0100, Fenny <***@removethis.onetel.net>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Fenny
Try being female of "a certain age". Disturbed sleep due to
overheating goes on relentlessly for more than a little time.
Tell me about it.
The medical people have been trying to get me to give up HRT for some years
now but I've stuck with it because the disturbed sleep really messes with
your brain. I'm currently trying without it again and two weeks in, though
I'm aware of some sleep disturbance, it doesn't seem to be too bad this
time - fingers crossed.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
LFS
2017-10-05 06:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Fenny
Try being female of "a certain age". Disturbed sleep due to
overheating goes on relentlessly for more than a little time.
Tell me about it.
The medical people have been trying to get me to give up HRT for some years
now but I've stuck with it because the disturbed sleep really messes with
your brain. I'm currently trying without it again and two weeks in, though
I'm aware of some sleep disturbance, it doesn't seem to be too bad this
time - fingers crossed.
Good luck! I have found that some of the remedies here are useful:
http://www.thisworks.com/ I came across them via a free sample in one of
the hotel chains.

The importance of good sleep does not seem to be sufficiently widely
recognised. And I've found that it gets even more important - and
apparently more difficult to achieve - as you get older. These days a
bad night wipes me out for the following day and if I fall asleep in the
afternoon I can't get to sleep that night so it becomes a vicious circle.
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Vicky
2017-10-05 08:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by LFS
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Fenny
Try being female of "a certain age". Disturbed sleep due to
overheating goes on relentlessly for more than a little time.
Tell me about it.
The medical people have been trying to get me to give up HRT for some years
now but I've stuck with it because the disturbed sleep really messes with
your brain. I'm currently trying without it again and two weeks in, though
I'm aware of some sleep disturbance, it doesn't seem to be too bad this
time - fingers crossed.
http://www.thisworks.com/ I came across them via a free sample in one of
the hotel chains.
The importance of good sleep does not seem to be sufficiently widely
recognised. And I've found that it gets even more important - and
apparently more difficult to achieve - as you get older. These days a
bad night wipes me out for the following day and if I fall asleep in the
afternoon I can't get to sleep that night so it becomes a vicious circle.
I've not had a whole night's sleep for years. I often manage an hour
and a half at a time and then have to turn over, go to the loo, get
another hour, maybe half an hour and repeat it all. 2 hours in a row
is rare. But I do always have an hour or to in the afternoon.
Grandaughter and I both siestad yesterday.

The broken nights are why I hear so many scraps of R4, 4E, 5 and WS.
And then I got a bedroom addition to Alexa for my birthday and now can
listen to books, but that's not going well at all.

News or current affairs are repeated often but bits of book until you
go to sleep and then find later you are 2 chapters along is not
working. You can set it to stop after 5 or 10 minutes. I am also
trying hearing books I've already read. The Nightwatch is a bit
exciting. Dark Vineyards is better. You can also tell it to go back
to previous chapters, but I already heard the beginning! And I don't
know at what point I fell asleep.
--
Vicky
Vicky
2017-10-04 20:39:26 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by krw
Post by Vicky
and I know how I
feel after a flight,
Try yellow fever vaccine. Dosed last week and lost a night's sleep last
night - either the shivers or overheated. Headache in the middle of the
night and washed out this morning.
Are holidays wurf it?
Me and both daughters had that vaccine years ago to go and visit Capt
Ex on a ship somewhere, possibly Cuaracao, and I don't recall having a
reaction to it. But I had my flu vaccination on Monday and feel very
woozy today. I began sneezing and nose running around lunchtime. Is
that too long after the vaccination? And do you get cold symptoms? And
I'm not even going on holiday. Where are you off to?

Unfortunately I have spent the day looking after baby granddaughter,
who was sent home from nursery yesterday lunchtime with an eye
infection, fever and probably virus, so I'm hoping I didn't pass on
whatever I have to her as well. I was fine first thing this morning
when I went there.
--
Vicky
Nick Odell
2017-10-04 21:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vicky
Post by krw
Post by Vicky
and I know how I
feel after a flight,
Try yellow fever vaccine. Dosed last week and lost a night's sleep last
night - either the shivers or overheated. Headache in the middle of the
night and washed out this morning.
Are holidays wurf it?
Me and both daughters had that vaccine years ago to go and visit Capt
Ex on a ship somewhere, possibly Cuaracao, and I don't recall having a
reaction to it. But I had my flu vaccination on Monday and feel very
woozy today. I began sneezing and nose running around lunchtime. Is
that too long after the vaccination? And do you get cold symptoms? And
I'm not even going on holiday. Where are you off to?
Unfortunately I have spent the day looking after baby granddaughter,
who was sent home from nursery yesterday lunchtime with an eye
infection, fever and probably virus, so I'm hoping I didn't pass on
whatever I have to her as well. I was fine first thing this morning
when I went there.
...and I hope that baby granddaughter didn't pass any of hers on to you.

Nick
Vicky
2017-10-05 08:19:39 UTC
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On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 22:29:37 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 10 Where are you off to?
Unfortunately I have spent the day looking after baby granddaughter,
who was sent home from nursery yesterday lunchtime with an eye
infection, fever and probably virus, so I'm hoping I didn't pass on
whatever I have to her as well. I was fine first thing this morning
when I went there.
...and I hope that baby granddaughter didn't pass any of hers on to you.
Nick
Yes, it is usually that way round :), but so far not.
--
Vicky
Mike
2017-10-04 08:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Penny
in the dust...
Post by Vicky
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 22:06:56 +0100, Fenny
Post by Fenny
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Je reste ma valise.
Unbelievable was OLIVER offering to help!
I didn't find that unbelievable at all. I think he could be very good at
calming the situation when customers get angry. Who hired the idiot Joe
anyway?
That’s probably down to Cafe’ who didn’t have a word to say against him.
--
Toodle Pip
krw
2017-10-04 09:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike
Post by Penny
in the dust...
Post by Vicky
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 22:06:56 +0100, Fenny
Post by Fenny
Post by krw
Post by Fenny
Ian did say something about taking time off to look after "a child",
And then goes into work on his day off because the new front of house
manager cannot manage!
Je reste ma valise.
Unbelievable was OLIVER offering to help!
I didn't find that unbelievable at all. I think he could be very good at
calming the situation when customers get angry. Who hired the idiot Joe
anyway?
That’s probably down to Cafe’ who didn’t have a word to say against him.
I assume he was previously on the waiting staff and was promoted as the
best of a bad bunch when Tash swanned off to the Duxfords.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
tiny.cc/KRWpics
Btms
2017-09-26 19:22:01 UTC
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Post by Marjorie
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Vicky
I think having Helen living close and in the family will be
complicated. Will she breast feed the baby? We know it's best for the
child. I suppose she could express the milk and let Ian feed it. I
don't think I could go through pregnancy and birth and hand the baby
over.  Will she be able to or try  and erase the bad memories of last
time by keeping it? And it need not be her egg, need it?  And won't
she be tempted to monitor and maybe interfere with it's upbringing?
Well, she'd input - as would all the family - whether it's "her" baby or
not; that's what families do. OK, if it was "hers", she might think she
has more right to comment/interfere.
It was Helen who planted the seed (!) of the idea in Ian's mind that
having one's own baby was different and better than adopting someone
else's. It was as if she was setting this up even then, and waiting for
the obvious "solution" to present itself.
She might even insist on keeping the baby (as is her right, legally),
either with or without some parental input from Ian and Adam. Especially
if it was a girl. Ian and Adam haven't a clue about baby care; they are
both close to 50 and have demanding jobs. She would (rightly) have
concerns when it came to handing them her newborn infant.
All in all, it's a very bad idea, and using a local person who's a
relative could make things even worse if it all goes wrong.
If Ian is so keen on children, he could spend more time with Helen and
her boys, who are unlikely ever to have a proper father now. Adam has
never shown any interest in small children, that I can recall - he just
wants to indulge Ian and and let him have what he wants, just as Brian
let Jenny have her new kitchen.
Wotshesed.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Min
2017-09-23 23:30:08 UTC
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Post by Vicky
For those who were unable to find it online. It's a doozy this week.
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Justin is ignoring the old adage - never mix business with pleasure -
at his perfil, Hence his offer to include Amside under the Damara
umbrella, a move that doesn't go down well with Lilian, who's already
smarting at his suggestion that she recruits a wedding planner.
Elsewhere, Ian is thrilled when Helen comes forward to offer her
services as a surrogate mother, but more than one resident has serious
concerns. In the end, Helen is left wondering whether she has been
too hasty.
And the cricket team prepare for their final match against a smug
Darrington. With Josh unable to take part, Jolene steps up to the
crease. Will this be the final nail in the coffin for Harrison's
captaincy? By David Brown
+++++++++++++++++
I thought the SWs and powers would think it too bland to have Lilian
and Justin stay in unruffled happiness. And anyway I'm waiting for the
Dark Secret of his London trips to be revealed.
Helen? Oaahhhh noaahhhh! I thought, and someone did mention she might
offer, but didn't we dismiss it as a very very very bad idea? And is
it Adam, as well as Pat'an'Tony who think so too? And now Helen is
committed and worried. Was the offer because she felt guilty about
telling Rob she saw Adam and Charlie and caused the current shadow?
I predicted this in my Great Comeback post, and I am Horrified to be
Proved Right.....
--
Min
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