Discussion:
In defence of Will
(too old to reply)
Btms
2018-03-04 08:53:56 UTC
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He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot of get
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the way his
wife behaved and the history of Ed’s behaviour, I think this is a big ask.
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his inability to
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men who at
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in the
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and Justin, in
the get rich schemes.

Now he is being much attacked in another place for his reaction to Nic’s
death. It astounds me how much folk lack humanity and empathy; and
sometimes I despair of this world.

However, the boot is on the other foot for me where that Emurr is
concerned. Unredeemable.
Yes, pots kettle and black. But she doesn’t ever question her part in Will
being such a miserable old s*d.
Kosmo
2018-03-04 09:08:38 UTC
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Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot of get
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the way his
wife behaved and the history of Eds behaviour, I think this is a
big ask.
Post by Btms
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his
inability to
Post by Btms
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men who at
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in the
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and
Justin, in
Post by Btms
the get rich schemes.
I feel that the writers have not liked Will and have made him
unpleasant - or at least unbalanced as a person. Why I am not sure
but I think this may be at the root of antipathy to Will.
--
Kosmo
Btms
2018-03-04 09:14:18 UTC
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Post by Btms
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot
of get
Post by Btms
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the
way his
Post by Btms
wife behaved and the history of Eds behaviour, I think this is a
big ask.
Post by Btms
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his
inability to
Post by Btms
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men
who at
Post by Btms
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in
the
Post by Btms
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and
Justin, in
Post by Btms
the get rich schemes.
I feel that the writers have not liked Will and have made him
unpleasant - or at least unbalanced as a person. Why I am not sure
but I think this may be at the root of antipathy to Will.
When I wrote an MA thesis on TA back in the last century, there was
evidence beyond the self evident of TA mirroring much of the family life of
our own dear Queen. Given this, I see a reflection of sensible Wills vs
naughty Harry. The public do seem to warm towards Harry.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Kosmo
2018-03-04 09:30:18 UTC
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Post by Btms
When I wrote an MA thesis on TA back in the last century, there was
evidence beyond the self evident of TA mirroring much of the family life of
our own dear Queen. Given this, I see a reflection of sensible
Wills vs
Post by Btms
naughty Harry. The public do seem to warm towards Harry.
You may well be right. They are about the same ages as I recall.
--
Kosmo
Sally Thompson
2018-03-04 10:57:23 UTC
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Post by Btms
Post by Btms
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot
of get
Post by Btms
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the
way his
Post by Btms
wife behaved and the history of Eds behaviour, I think this is a
big ask.
Post by Btms
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his
inability to
Post by Btms
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men
who at
Post by Btms
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in
the
Post by Btms
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and
Justin, in
Post by Btms
the get rich schemes.
I feel that the writers have not liked Will and have made him
unpleasant - or at least unbalanced as a person. Why I am not sure
but I think this may be at the root of antipathy to Will.
When I wrote an MA thesis on TA back in the last century, there was
evidence beyond the self evident of TA mirroring much of the family life of
our own dear Queen. Given this, I see a reflection of sensible Wills vs
naughty Harry. The public do seem to warm towards Harry.
I hope you’re not seeing Meghan as Emma:-)
--
Sally in Shropshire, UK
Btms
2018-03-04 14:42:03 UTC
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Post by Sally Thompson
Post by Btms
Post by Btms
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot
of get
Post by Btms
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the
way his
Post by Btms
wife behaved and the history of Eds behaviour, I think this is a
big ask.
Post by Btms
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his
inability to
Post by Btms
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men
who at
Post by Btms
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in
the
Post by Btms
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and
Justin, in
Post by Btms
the get rich schemes.
I feel that the writers have not liked Will and have made him
unpleasant - or at least unbalanced as a person. Why I am not sure
but I think this may be at the root of antipathy to Will.
When I wrote an MA thesis on TA back in the last century, there was
evidence beyond the self evident of TA mirroring much of the family life of
our own dear Queen. Given this, I see a reflection of sensible Wills vs
naughty Harry. The public do seem to warm towards Harry.
I hope you’re not seeing Meghan as Emma:-)
I hadn’t thought beyond Will and Harry. I suppose it is watch this space
and see what happens!
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-04 11:13:47 UTC
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In message
<624455842.541847427.371652.poppy-***@news.eternal-september.o
rg>, Btms <***@thetames.me.uk> writes:
[]
Post by Btms
When I wrote an MA thesis on TA back in the last century, there was
evidence beyond the self evident of TA mirroring much of the family life of
our own dear Queen. Given this, I see a reflection of sensible Wills vs
naughty Harry. The public do seem to warm towards Harry.
Yes (and I've never been as susceptible to [so-called!] "lovable rogues"
as many seem to be). But at least I don't think the pubic _dislike_
"sensible Wills" - and I don't think he's done things/behaved in a way
people don't like; he just hasn't done as much that (some) people do.
Unlike the Will in TA.

Not that I don't agree with Btms that he (the TA one) seems to be
getting a bit _more_ opprobrium than is fair, given the current
circumstances. Though (looks at clock to see if I need to "spoiler" - I
think not) his words to Brian at the end of this week look like things
are hotting up ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"The people here are more educated and intelligent. Even stupid people in
Britain are smarter than Americans." Madonna, in RT 30 June-6July 2001 (page
32)
Vicky
2018-03-04 11:49:24 UTC
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On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 11:13:47 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]
Post by Btms
When I wrote an MA thesis on TA back in the last century, there was
evidence beyond the self evident of TA mirroring much of the family life of
our own dear Queen. Given this, I see a reflection of sensible Wills vs
naughty Harry. The public do seem to warm towards Harry.
Yes (and I've never been as susceptible to [so-called!] "lovable rogues"
as many seem to be). But at least I don't think the pubic _dislike_
"sensible Wills" - and I don't think he's done things/behaved in a way
people don't like; he just hasn't done as much that (some) people do.
Unlike the Will in TA.
Not that I don't agree with Btms that he (the TA one) seems to be
getting a bit _more_ opprobrium than is fair, given the current
circumstances. Though (looks at clock to see if I need to "spoiler" - I
think not) his words to Brian at the end of this week look like things
are hotting up ...
His words to Brian were the first things I didn't very much dislike
about him. His words to Joe were unforgiveable. Someone on the fb
group said they would not have been able to talk to their grandfather
like that. I agreed that I couldn't have either. Mine was
old-fashioned in many ways but a loving grandfather, like Joe, and I
loved him, as Ed does Joe.

I wondered whether Will would have talked to Clarrie like that.
Normally he does it to people who are vulnerable. That's what I liked
about him doing it to Brian. It will be a difficult situation now
for Brian. He can hardly fire him, now or in the near future. Will
needs the job to support his kids so presumably won't quit. or might
he? Are jobs as gamekeeper easy to come by?

I suggested on fb someone, Clarrie perhaps, should explain to Will he
was doing the best thing for Nic that he could at the time. She needed
to know that he was comforting Poppy in order to die in peace. He
won't apologise to Joe as Will never thinks he is wrong, but it might
comfort him a little to think he was doing the best thing he could at
that time. Wanting to be there for her last moments is obviously
understandabke but Clarrie or Ed could tell him that was for his own
benefit and he was sacrificing himself for Nic's peace of mind.
--
Vicky
the Omrud
2018-03-04 12:10:38 UTC
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Post by Vicky
I wondered whether Will would have talked to Clarrie like that.
Normally he does it to people who are vulnerable. That's what I liked
about him doing it to Brian. It will be a difficult situation now
for Brian. He can hardly fire him, now or in the near future. Will
needs the job to support his kids so presumably won't quit. or might
he? Are jobs as gamekeeper easy to come by?
Not if you are required by Village Law to live within half a mile of
your mother.
--
David
Serena Blanchflower
2018-03-04 13:38:45 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
Post by Vicky
I wondered whether Will would have talked to Clarrie like that.
Normally he does it to people who are vulnerable. That's what I liked
about him doing it to Brian.   It will be a difficult situation now
for Brian. He can hardly fire him, now or in the near future. Will
needs the job to support his kids so presumably won't quit. or might
he? Are jobs as gamekeeper easy to come by?
Not if you are required by Village Law to live within half a mile of
your mother.
And when you are likely to be depending on your mother and sister-in-law
for childcare, let alone needing to be within easy reach of your son's
mother and step-children's father.
--
Best wishes, Serena
In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at
heart. (Anne Frank)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-05 19:48:20 UTC
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Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by the Omrud
Post by Vicky
I wondered whether Will would have talked to Clarrie like that.
Normally he does it to people who are vulnerable. That's what I liked
about him doing it to Brian.   It will be a difficult situation now
for Brian. He can hardly fire him, now or in the near future. Will
needs the job to support his kids so presumably won't quit. or might
he? Are jobs as gamekeeper easy to come by?
Not if you are required by Village Law to live within half a mile of
your mother.
And when you are likely to be depending on your mother and
sister-in-law for childcare, let alone needing to be within easy reach
of your son's mother and step-children's father.
Is Andrew even still in the area? (Or even alive?) I'm pretty sure we've
heard nothing of him for ages (actually I don't think we've _ever_ heard
anything of him [except as reported by Nic in the early days], but that
has a higher chance of being wrong due to my memory).

Has anyone even told him? If, as I suspect, the only one who knows
anything of him would be Nic, then the only way anyone _could_ would be
for someone to search her things for contact details, and I don't see
Will allowing anyone to do that (or doing it himself).

Or maybe the solicitors involved in the adoption (assuming Will formally
adopted - I can't remember whether he did or not) have contact details -
and _maybe_ someone (I'd guess Clarrie as the most likely) has _their_
contact details.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Well I wish you'd just tell me, rather than trying to engage my enthusiasm,
because I haven't got one. (Marvin; first series, fit the fifth.)
Serena Blanchflower
2018-03-05 20:00:45 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Vicky
I wondered whether Will would have talked to Clarrie like that.
Normally he does it to people who are vulnerable. That's what I liked
about him doing it to Brian.   It will be a difficult situation now
for Brian. He can hardly fire him, now or in the near future. Will
needs the job to support his kids so presumably won't quit. or might
he? Are jobs as gamekeeper easy to come by?
 Not if you are required by Village Law to live within half a mile of
your mother.
And when you are likely to be depending on your mother and
sister-in-law for childcare, let alone needing to be within easy reach
of your son's mother and step-children's father.
Is Andrew even still in the area? (Or even alive?) I'm pretty sure we've
heard nothing of him for ages (actually I don't think we've _ever_ heard
anything of him [except as reported by Nic in the early days], but that
has a higher chance of being wrong due to my memory).
We've been told that he's been looking after Jake and Mia, since Nic
died. This strongly suggests that he's still in the area and that, in
all probability, the children have been seeing him on at least a
semi-regular basis all along.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Has anyone even told him? If, as I suspect, the only one who knows
anything of him would be Nic, then the only way anyone _could_ would be
for someone to search her things for contact details, and I don't see
Will allowing anyone to do that (or doing it himself).
Beverley would certainly have known of him and would, very likely, have
had his contact details, as would Will. Jake and Mia are also old enough
to have been likely to contact him themselves, if he's stayed part of
their lives.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Or maybe the solicitors involved in the adoption (assuming Will formally
adopted - I can't remember whether he did or not) have contact details -
and _maybe_ someone (I'd guess Clarrie as the most likely) has _their_
contact details.
Given that the children are now staying with Andrew, it seems safe to
assume that Will didn't adopt them.
--
Best wishes, Serena
Customer: Waiter! Waiter! This egg's bad.
Waiter: Don't blame me. I only lay the tables.
Sally Thompson
2018-03-06 16:32:31 UTC
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Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Vicky
I wondered whether Will would have talked to Clarrie like that.
Normally he does it to people who are vulnerable. That's what I liked
about him doing it to Brian.   It will be a difficult situation now
for Brian. He can hardly fire him, now or in the near future. Will
needs the job to support his kids so presumably won't quit. or might
he? Are jobs as gamekeeper easy to come by?
 Not if you are required by Village Law to live within half a mile of
your mother.
And when you are likely to be depending on your mother and
sister-in-law for childcare, let alone needing to be within easy reach
of your son's mother and step-children's father.
Is Andrew even still in the area? (Or even alive?) I'm pretty sure we've
heard nothing of him for ages (actually I don't think we've _ever_ heard
anything of him [except as reported by Nic in the early days], but that
has a higher chance of being wrong due to my memory).
We've been told that he's been looking after Jake and Mia, since Nic
died. This strongly suggests that he's still in the area and that, in
all probability, the children have been seeing him on at least a
semi-regular basis all along.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Has anyone even told him? If, as I suspect, the only one who knows
anything of him would be Nic, then the only way anyone _could_ would be
for someone to search her things for contact details, and I don't see
Will allowing anyone to do that (or doing it himself).
Beverley would certainly have known of him and would, very likely, have
had his contact details, as would Will. Jake and Mia are also old enough
to have been likely to contact him themselves, if he's stayed part of
their lives.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Or maybe the solicitors involved in the adoption (assuming Will formally
adopted - I can't remember whether he did or not) have contact details -
and _maybe_ someone (I'd guess Clarrie as the most likely) has _their_
contact details.
Given that the children are now staying with Andrew, it seems safe to
assume that Will didn't adopt them.
Also it was mentioned that they spent Christmas with Andrew.

Presumably we all foresee a tug of war for custody coming up.
--
Sally in Shropshire, UK
the Omrud
2018-03-06 16:36:56 UTC
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Post by Sally Thompson
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Vicky
I wondered whether Will would have talked to Clarrie like that.
Normally he does it to people who are vulnerable. That's what I liked
about him doing it to Brian.   It will be a difficult situation now
for Brian. He can hardly fire him, now or in the near future. Will
needs the job to support his kids so presumably won't quit. or might
he? Are jobs as gamekeeper easy to come by?
 Not if you are required by Village Law to live within half a mile of
your mother.
And when you are likely to be depending on your mother and
sister-in-law for childcare, let alone needing to be within easy reach
of your son's mother and step-children's father.
Is Andrew even still in the area? (Or even alive?) I'm pretty sure we've
heard nothing of him for ages (actually I don't think we've _ever_ heard
anything of him [except as reported by Nic in the early days], but that
has a higher chance of being wrong due to my memory).
We've been told that he's been looking after Jake and Mia, since Nic
died. This strongly suggests that he's still in the area and that, in
all probability, the children have been seeing him on at least a
semi-regular basis all along.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Has anyone even told him? If, as I suspect, the only one who knows
anything of him would be Nic, then the only way anyone _could_ would be
for someone to search her things for contact details, and I don't see
Will allowing anyone to do that (or doing it himself).
Beverley would certainly have known of him and would, very likely, have
had his contact details, as would Will. Jake and Mia are also old enough
to have been likely to contact him themselves, if he's stayed part of
their lives.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Or maybe the solicitors involved in the adoption (assuming Will formally
adopted - I can't remember whether he did or not) have contact details -
and _maybe_ someone (I'd guess Clarrie as the most likely) has _their_
contact details.
Given that the children are now staying with Andrew, it seems safe to
assume that Will didn't adopt them.
Also it was mentioned that they spent Christmas with Andrew.
Presumably we all foresee a tug of war for custody coming up.
Right.

- I don't want the brats.
- No, you have to take them. You're their proper Dad.
- But I can't. It's your responsibility.
- No chance. I've got my own life.

and so on.
--
David
Btms
2018-03-06 16:58:19 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Sally Thompson
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Vicky
I wondered whether Will would have talked to Clarrie like that.
Normally he does it to people who are vulnerable. That's what I liked
about him doing it to Brian.   It will be a difficult situation now
for Brian. He can hardly fire him, now or in the near future. Will
needs the job to support his kids so presumably won't quit. or might
he? Are jobs as gamekeeper easy to come by?
 Not if you are required by Village Law to live within half a mile of
your mother.
And when you are likely to be depending on your mother and
sister-in-law for childcare, let alone needing to be within easy reach
of your son's mother and step-children's father.
Is Andrew even still in the area? (Or even alive?) I'm pretty sure we've
heard nothing of him for ages (actually I don't think we've _ever_ heard
anything of him [except as reported by Nic in the early days], but that
has a higher chance of being wrong due to my memory).
We've been told that he's been looking after Jake and Mia, since Nic
died. This strongly suggests that he's still in the area and that, in
all probability, the children have been seeing him on at least a
semi-regular basis all along.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Has anyone even told him? If, as I suspect, the only one who knows
anything of him would be Nic, then the only way anyone _could_ would be
for someone to search her things for contact details, and I don't see
Will allowing anyone to do that (or doing it himself).
Beverley would certainly have known of him and would, very likely, have
had his contact details, as would Will. Jake and Mia are also old enough
to have been likely to contact him themselves, if he's stayed part of
their lives.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Or maybe the solicitors involved in the adoption (assuming Will formally
adopted - I can't remember whether he did or not) have contact details -
and _maybe_ someone (I'd guess Clarrie as the most likely) has _their_
contact details.
Given that the children are now staying with Andrew, it seems safe to
assume that Will didn't adopt them.
Also it was mentioned that they spent Christmas with Andrew.
Presumably we all foresee a tug of war for custody coming up.
So glad I have stopped listening. I won’t have to suffer it.

Still interested in the umra pov though. I am just finding it all
unbearable.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Mike
2018-03-06 17:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Btms
Post by Sally Thompson
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Vicky
I wondered whether Will would have talked to Clarrie like that.
Normally he does it to people who are vulnerable. That's what I liked
about him doing it to Brian.   It will be a difficult situation now
for Brian. He can hardly fire him, now or in the near future. Will
needs the job to support his kids so presumably won't quit. or might
he? Are jobs as gamekeeper easy to come by?
 Not if you are required by Village Law to live within half a mile of
your mother.
And when you are likely to be depending on your mother and
sister-in-law for childcare, let alone needing to be within easy reach
of your son's mother and step-children's father.
Is Andrew even still in the area? (Or even alive?) I'm pretty sure we've
heard nothing of him for ages (actually I don't think we've _ever_ heard
anything of him [except as reported by Nic in the early days], but that
has a higher chance of being wrong due to my memory).
We've been told that he's been looking after Jake and Mia, since Nic
died. This strongly suggests that he's still in the area and that, in
all probability, the children have been seeing him on at least a
semi-regular basis all along.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Has anyone even told him? If, as I suspect, the only one who knows
anything of him would be Nic, then the only way anyone _could_ would be
for someone to search her things for contact details, and I don't see
Will allowing anyone to do that (or doing it himself).
Beverley would certainly have known of him and would, very likely, have
had his contact details, as would Will. Jake and Mia are also old enough
to have been likely to contact him themselves, if he's stayed part of
their lives.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Or maybe the solicitors involved in the adoption (assuming Will formally
adopted - I can't remember whether he did or not) have contact details -
and _maybe_ someone (I'd guess Clarrie as the most likely) has _their_
contact details.
Given that the children are now staying with Andrew, it seems safe to
assume that Will didn't adopt them.
Also it was mentioned that they spent Christmas with Andrew.
Presumably we all foresee a tug of war for custody coming up.
So glad I have stopped listening. I won’t have to suffer it.
Still interested in the umra pov though. I am just finding it all
unbearable.
Just when we thought we were SOC free, a leak shows up below the water
line😒
--
Toodle Pip
Serena Blanchflower
2018-03-05 15:51:46 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Vicky
I suggested on fb someone, Clarrie perhaps, should explain to Will he
was doing the best thing for Nic that he could at the time. She needed
to know that he was comforting Poppy in order to die in peace. He
won't apologise to Joe as Will never thinks he is wrong, but it might
comfort him a little to think he was doing the best thing he could at
that time. Wanting to be there for her last moments is obviously
understandabke but Clarrie or Ed could tell him that was for his own
benefit and he was sacrificing himself for Nic's peace of mind.
Yes, I've been shouting at the radio that someone should point that out
to William.
--
Best wishes, Serena
...running like a slug on valium (Tony Gardner)
John Ashby
2018-03-04 13:55:13 UTC
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I feel that the writers have not liked Will and have made him unpleasant
- or at least unbalanced as a person.  Why I am not sure but I think
this may be at the root of antipathy to Will.
I wonder if the root of the SWs' antipathy is snobbery, they can't face
the idea of Will breaking out of the Grundy loveable rogue/useless
farmer (a role originally held by Walter Gabriel)/downtrodden peasant
state without there being some sort of retribution.

john
Nick Odell
2018-03-04 14:46:01 UTC
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Post by John Ashby
Post by Kosmo
I feel that the writers have not liked Will and have made him
unpleasant - or at least unbalanced as a person.  Why I am not sure
but I think this may be at the root of antipathy to Will.
I wonder if the root of the SWs' antipathy is snobbery, they can't face
the idea of Will breaking out of the Grundy loveable rogue/useless
farmer (a role originally held by Walter Gabriel)/downtrodden peasant
state without there being some sort of retribution.
I wonder if the root of the SWs' antipathy isn't flagrant nepotism?

"This boy who can't act gets a prime part in a major BBC serial and all
because - oh yes - he's the son of one of the cast. Whilst there are all
those actors who can act who didn't get a chance. Well... Let's make
this one suffer."


Nick
Btms
2018-03-04 14:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nick Odell
Post by John Ashby
Post by Kosmo
I feel that the writers have not liked Will and have made him
unpleasant - or at least unbalanced as a person.  Why I am not sure
but I think this may be at the root of antipathy to Will.
I wonder if the root of the SWs' antipathy is snobbery, they can't face
the idea of Will breaking out of the Grundy loveable rogue/useless
farmer (a role originally held by Walter Gabriel)/downtrodden peasant
state without there being some sort of retribution.
I wonder if the root of the SWs' antipathy isn't flagrant nepotism?
"This boy who can't act gets a prime part in a major BBC serial and all
because - oh yes - he's the son of one of the cast. Whilst there are all
those actors who can act who didn't get a chance. Well... Let's make
this one suffer."
Nick
Do you think they have decided for him to top himself?
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Btms
2018-03-04 14:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Ashby
I feel that the writers have not liked Will and have made him unpleasant
- or at least unbalanced as a person.  Why I am not sure but I think
this may be at the root of antipathy to Will.
I wonder if the root of the SWs' antipathy is snobbery, they can't face
the idea of Will breaking out of the Grundy loveable rogue/useless
farmer (a role originally held by Walter Gabriel)/downtrodden peasant
state without there being some sort of retribution.
john
It might be but traditionally the arty tarty folk tend to be left wing ime.
This doesn’t necessarily negate your point of course.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Nick Odell
2018-03-04 22:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Ashby
Post by Kosmo
I feel that the writers have not liked Will and have made him
unpleasant - or at least unbalanced as a person.  Why I am not sure
but I think this may be at the root of antipathy to Will.
I wonder if the root of the SWs' antipathy is snobbery, they can't face
the idea of Will breaking out of the Grundy loveable rogue/useless
farmer (a role originally held by Walter Gabriel)/downtrodden peasant
state without there being some sort of retribution.
(sending again as first attempt doesn't seem to have arrived)
I wonder if the root of the SWs' antipathy isn't flagrant nepotism?

"This boy who can't act gets a prime part in a major BBC serial and all
because - oh yes - he's the son of one of the cast. Whilst there are all
those actors who can act who didn't get a chance. Well... Let's make
this one suffer."


Nick
Fenny
2018-03-04 14:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot of get
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the way his
wife behaved and the history of Ed’s behaviour, I think this is a big ask.
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his inability to
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men who at
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in the
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and Justin, in
the get rich schemes.
Now he is being much attacked in another place for his reaction to Nic’s
death. It astounds me how much folk lack humanity and empathy; and
sometimes I despair of this world.
However, the boot is on the other foot for me where that Emurr is
concerned. Unredeemable.
Yes, pots kettle and black. But she doesn’t ever question her part in Will
being such a miserable old s*d.
I don't see any such attitude here. If it's elsewhere, those of us
who don't frequent it don't see it.

Will is someone who likes to control everyone he can. Whoever it was
who posted the timeline of Emma's pregnancy included a line about Will
not wanting Emma to go back to work. He seemed very much a
"traditional" husband and father, thinking that housework and
childcare are the only things a woman is good for. If that means Emma
has a part in Will's attitude, I completely disagree.

As a teenager, Will was a little git. Tom Forrest took him under his
wing and gave him an opportunity to make something of himself. He
managed to get a good job, had the backing of a lovely godmother, had
the advantage of being born before Ed so inheriting money. But he's
still a miserable git. All the fuss last year about women in the
cricket team indicates that he's the one with the problems. Everyone
else just has to deal with that.
--
Fenny
Mike
2018-03-04 16:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fenny
As a teenager, Will was a little git. Tom Forrest took him under his
wing and gave him an opportunity to make something of himself. He
managed to get a good job, had the backing of a lovely godmother, had
the advantage of being born before Ed so inheriting money. But he's
still a miserable git. All the fuss last year about women in the
cricket team indicates that he's the one with the problems. Everyone
else just has to deal with that.
Will was a prize MOG before recent events - he now appears to be adding
‘bitter and twisted’ to that accolade IMNSHO.
--
Toodle Pip
Vicky
2018-03-04 16:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike
Post by Fenny
As a teenager, Will was a little git. Tom Forrest took him under his
wing and gave him an opportunity to make something of himself. He
managed to get a good job, had the backing of a lovely godmother, had
the advantage of being born before Ed so inheriting money. But he's
still a miserable git. All the fuss last year about women in the
cricket team indicates that he's the one with the problems. Everyone
else just has to deal with that.
Will was a prize MOG before recent events - he now appears to be adding
‘bitter and twisted’ to that accolade IMNSHO.
MOG?
--
Vicky
Mike
2018-03-04 17:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike
Post by Fenny
As a teenager, Will was a little git. Tom Forrest took him under his
wing and gave him an opportunity to make something of himself. He
managed to get a good job, had the backing of a lovely godmother, had
the advantage of being born before Ed so inheriting money. But he's
still a miserable git. All the fuss last year about women in the
cricket team indicates that he's the one with the problems. Everyone
else just has to deal with that.
Will was a prize MOG before recent events - he now appears to be adding
‘bitter and twisted’ to that accolade IMNSHO.
MOG?
Miserable Old Git
--
Toodle Pip
Sid Nuncius
2018-03-04 18:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike
MOG?
Miserable Old Git
As in Jacob Rees-MOG.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Kosmo
2018-03-05 06:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 18:29:33 +0000, Sid Nuncius
Post by Sid Nuncius
As in Jacob Rees-MOG.
Mogg. Miserable Old Gentlemanly Guts.
--
Kosmo
Chris McMillan
2018-03-04 17:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fenny
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot of get
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the way his
wife behaved and the history of Ed’s behaviour, I think this is a big ask.
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his inability to
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men who at
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in the
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and Justin, in
the get rich schemes.
Now he is being much attacked in another place for his reaction to Nic’s
death. It astounds me how much folk lack humanity and empathy; and
sometimes I despair of this world.
However, the boot is on the other foot for me where that Emurr is
concerned. Unredeemable.
Yes, pots kettle and black. But she doesn’t ever question her part in Will
being such a miserable old s*d.
I don't see any such attitude here. If it's elsewhere, those of us
who don't frequent it don't see it.
Will is someone who likes to control everyone he can. Whoever it was
who posted the timeline of Emma's pregnancy included a line about Will
not wanting Emma to go back to work. He seemed very much a
"traditional" husband and father, thinking that housework and
childcare are the only things a woman is good for. If that means Emma
has a part in Will's attitude, I completely disagree.
As a teenager, Will was a little git. Tom Forrest took him under his
wing and gave him an opportunity to make something of himself. He
managed to get a good job, had the backing of a lovely godmother, had
the advantage of being born before Ed so inheriting money. But he's
still a miserable git. All the fuss last year about women in the
cricket team indicates that he's the one with the problems. Everyone
else just has to deal with that.
Maybe. One of you have been on the end of someone’s grief when their spouse
dies unexpectedly and to use modern parlance ‘a soulmate’ (can’t think what
we said in past times). When my dad died without warning, I knew nothing
till the next morning, it was too quick, and then too late at night to ring
me and I had no easy way to get to mum had she wanted me - which she
didn’t. She simply wrote a couple of notes to our neighbour and her vicar,
the church is five mins walk. And she went to bed she told me. On a visit
not much later she was incredibly upset and gave me a well deserved piece
of her mind, it all happened to be true what she said for a time decades
before. But she must’ve felt better for saying it, we’ve gone on to be what
I think were good friends until dementia, probably both vascular and
alzheimers which can present together and the speed at which her memory and
character have vanished in weeks. She is certainly reverting to her first
views of me as a 14 year old immature teenager with no graces whatsoever,
but to me that seems natural as she regressed.

If Will believed Nic was his soulmate, and she certainly has benefitted by
his marrying her so let’s say at the outset she felt he was hers (compared
to whatever she and Andrew had), I can see why he is as he is. There is
also a definite that as Will went up in the world he had little or no time
for the males of the family, I still think he thinks much of Clarrie and
owes his good points to her hard work.

(I wonder if the gitness comes from his inability to break away from his
Grundy past because he loves Clarrie too much to hurt her). I seem to
remember he wanted to help Clarrie far more than Eddie and Jo with the
cottage offer: he knew in his heart of hearts that however stupid Eddie is,
she married for better or worse and will stand by him no matter what.

Sincerely Chris
Serena Blanchflower
2018-03-05 15:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fenny
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot of get
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the way his
wife behaved and the history of Ed’s behaviour, I think this is a big ask.
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his inability to
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men who at
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in the
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and Justin, in
the get rich schemes.
Now he is being much attacked in another place for his reaction to Nic’s
death. It astounds me how much folk lack humanity and empathy; and
sometimes I despair of this world.
However, the boot is on the other foot for me where that Emurr is
concerned. Unredeemable.
Yes, pots kettle and black. But she doesn’t ever question her part in Will
being such a miserable old s*d.
I don't see any such attitude here. If it's elsewhere, those of us
who don't frequent it don't see it.
Will is someone who likes to control everyone he can. Whoever it was
who posted the timeline of Emma's pregnancy included a line about Will
not wanting Emma to go back to work. He seemed very much a
"traditional" husband and father, thinking that housework and
childcare are the only things a woman is good for. If that means Emma
has a part in Will's attitude, I completely disagree.
As a teenager, Will was a little git. Tom Forrest took him under his
wing and gave him an opportunity to make something of himself. He
managed to get a good job, had the backing of a lovely godmother, had
the advantage of being born before Ed so inheriting money. But he's
still a miserable git. All the fuss last year about women in the
cricket team indicates that he's the one with the problems. Everyone
else just has to deal with that.
<languid wave>
--
Best wishes, Serena
Q. What do get if you walk under a cow?
A. A pat on the head.
Rosalind Mitchell
2018-03-05 21:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fenny
As a teenager, Will was a little git.
And car-twocking, crack snorting Ed was a little angel at the same age?

Rotoo
Fenny
2018-03-05 21:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 21:09:03 +0000, Rosalind Mitchell
Post by Rosalind Mitchell
Post by Fenny
As a teenager, Will was a little git.
And car-twocking, crack snorting Ed was a little angel at the same age?
I didn't say that. Will is a git and has been for many years. Now
he's a smug git, who thinks that anyone who doesn't agree with him is
wrong - women in the cricket team.
--
Fenny
LFS
2018-03-04 15:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot of get
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the way his
wife behaved and the history of Ed’s behaviour, I think this is a big ask.
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his inability to
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men who at
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in the
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and Justin, in
the get rich schemes.
Now he is being much attacked in another place for his reaction to Nic’s
death. It astounds me how much folk lack humanity and empathy; and
sometimes I despair of this world.
However, the boot is on the other foot for me where that Emurr is
concerned. Unredeemable.
Yes, pots kettle and black. But she doesn’t ever question her part in Will
being such a miserable old s*d.
I have never warmed to Will as a character but I think his current
behaviour is perfectly understandable. He was on his way home,
cheerfully expecting his wife to be delighted by his change of heart
about going dancing, and was suddenly faced with a terrible crisis and a
shocking tragedy. Coming to terms with that would be a huge challenge.

I do so agree about lack of humanity and empathy.

It seems to me that everyone deals with bereavement differently and,
most importantly, should be allowed to do so. I have been spending time
with a friend whose husband committed suicide just before Xmas. We both
find it astonishing that she has been criticised for getting on with
stuff and going back to work, and has been unfavourably compared to
another colleague whose husband died and who took six months off. People
keep telling her that she is taking it all too calmly and will collapse
in a few months time and she is now worrying about that possibility.
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Serena Blanchflower
2018-03-05 15:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by LFS
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot of get
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners.  Given the way his
wife behaved and the history of Ed’s behaviour, I think this is a big ask.
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his inability to
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife.  He comes from a family of feckless men
who at
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in the
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and Justin, in
the get rich schemes.
Now he is being much attacked in another place for his reaction to Nic’s
death. It astounds me how much folk lack humanity and empathy; and
sometimes I despair of this world.
However, the boot is on the other foot for me where that Emurr is
concerned. Unredeemable.
Yes, pots kettle and black.  But she doesn’t ever question her part in
Will
being such a miserable old s*d.
I have never warmed to Will as a character but I think his current
behaviour is perfectly understandable. He was on his way home,
cheerfully expecting his wife to be delighted by his change of heart
about going dancing, and was suddenly faced with a terrible crisis and a
shocking tragedy. Coming to terms with that would be a huge challenge.
I do so agree about lack of humanity and empathy.
I agree. I don't know how you even begin to cope with a sudden
bereavement like Will's. I think reacting to a huge loss with anger, as
Will is doing, is a very common reaction.
Post by LFS
It seems to me that everyone deals with bereavement differently and,
most importantly, should be allowed to do so. I have been spending time
with a friend whose husband committed suicide just before Xmas. We both
find it astonishing that she has been criticised for getting on with
stuff and going back to work, and has been unfavourably compared to
another colleague whose husband died and who took six months off. People
keep telling her that she is taking it all too calmly and will collapse
in a few months time and she is now worrying about that possibility.
:(
--
Best wishes, Serena
The cost of living hasn't affected its popularity.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-05 20:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[]
Post by LFS
I have never warmed to Will as a character but I think his current
I think there may have been times when I did - when he showed signs of
breaking out of the Grundy clan/tribe/whatever, and _before_ the
inheritance. But I agree, there's little about him now that's likeable
and a vast amount that isn't (his control of Nic, his misogyny, ...).
[His enmity with Ed too, but they were as bad as each other about that
most of the time.] But ...
Post by LFS
behaviour is perfectly understandable. He was on his way home,
cheerfully expecting his wife to be delighted by his change of heart
about going dancing, and was suddenly faced with a terrible crisis and
a shocking tragedy. Coming to terms with that would be a huge challenge.
I do so agree about lack of humanity and empathy.
... me too.
Post by LFS
It seems to me that everyone deals with bereavement differently and,
most importantly, should be allowed to do so. I have been spending time
with a friend whose husband committed suicide just before Xmas. We both
find it astonishing that she has been criticised for getting on with
stuff and going back to work, and has been unfavourably compared to
another colleague whose husband died and who took six months off.
People keep telling her that she is taking it all too calmly and will
Those of us who do _not_ react as expected (to assorted events, not just
bereavement) do get treated with suspicion, and even threatened (e. g.
with mental treatment, in extremis; I can see someone suggesting that
for Will in the near future, possibly with good intentions).
Post by LFS
collapse in a few months time and she is now worrying about that
possibility.
I find that very sad.

Where a _parent_, especially the last surviving one, dies, then there
_are_ usually _practical_ reasons why you need time off: probate to be
sorted, home to be gone through and sold. Where it's a partner, this is
(only often, I know) less so. Certainly, if someone chooses to throw
themselves into their work, I feel strongly that they should not be
criticised therefor.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Everyone learns from science. It all depends how you use the knowledge. - "Gil
Grissom" (CSI).
Serena Blanchflower
2018-03-05 20:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by LFS
I have never warmed to Will as a character but I think his current
I think there may have been times when I did - when he showed signs of
breaking out of the Grundy clan/tribe/whatever, and _before_ the
inheritance. But I agree, there's little about him now that's likeable
and a vast amount that isn't (his control of Nic, his misogyny, ...).
[His enmity with Ed too, but they were as bad as each other about that
most of the time.] But ...
Post by LFS
behaviour is perfectly understandable. He was on his way home,
cheerfully expecting his wife to be delighted by his change of heart
about going dancing, and was suddenly faced with a terrible crisis and
a shocking tragedy. Coming to terms with that would be a huge challenge.
I do so agree about lack of humanity and empathy.
.... me too.
Post by LFS
It seems to me that everyone deals with bereavement differently and,
most importantly, should be allowed to do so. I have been spending
time with a friend whose husband committed suicide just before Xmas.
We both find it astonishing that she has been criticised for getting
on with stuff and going back to work, and has been unfavourably
compared to another colleague whose husband died and who took six
months off. People keep telling her that she is taking it all too
calmly and will
Those of us who do _not_ react as expected (to assorted events, not just
bereavement) do get treated with suspicion, and even threatened (e. g.
with mental treatment, in extremis; I can see someone suggesting that
for Will in the near future, possibly with good intentions).
Post by LFS
collapse in a few months time and she is now worrying about that
possibility.
I find that very sad.
Where a _parent_, especially the last surviving one, dies, then there
_are_ usually _practical_ reasons why you need time off: probate to be
sorted, home to be gone through and sold. Where it's a partner, this is
(only often, I know) less so. Certainly, if someone chooses to throw
themselves into their work, I feel strongly that they should not be
criticised therefor.
I agree. I remember a good friend of mine who was knocked sideways when
his wife died very suddenly. He'd retired very early, some years
earlier, but got himself a new, part time, job a month or so after he
was widowed, as a way of coping with his loss. It kept him busy, and
out of the house, and was something completely unconnected to his late wife.
--
Best wishes, Serena
It's better to light a candle than curse the darkness (Chinese Proverb)
Serena Blanchflower
2018-03-05 15:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot of get
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the way his
wife behaved and the history of Ed’s behaviour, I think this is a big ask.
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his inability to
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences.
I agree it would have been really tough for Will to cope with the way
Emma treated him. In any normal family either Will, or Ed and Emma,
would have moved away from Ambridge and built a new life elsewhere.
That said, I think he has to take his share of the blame for the fact
that Emma was so unhappy with him. He was insistent that she should
stay at home with George and not return to work - or any kind of
interest away from the house.
Post by Btms
He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men who at
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in the
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and Justin, in
the get rich schemes.
I think Nic very much appreciated what he did.
Post by Btms
Now he is being much attacked in another place for his reaction to Nic’s
death. It astounds me how much folk lack humanity and empathy; and
sometimes I despair of this world.
I haven't seen that here.
Post by Btms
However, the boot is on the other foot for me where that Emurr is
concerned. Unredeemable.
Yes, pots kettle and black. But she doesn’t ever question her part in Will
being such a miserable old s*d.
I certainly agree that, of the three of them, Emma was the one who had,
by far, the fewest redeeming features or excuses for how she behaved.
--
Best wishes, Serena
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains
a fool forever. (Old Chinese saying)
Btms
2018-03-05 18:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Snipped to context
Now he is being much attacked in another place for his reaction to Nic’s
death. It astounds me how much folk lack humanity and empathy; and
sometimes I despair of this world.


I haven't seen that here.

I did say another place. I started to received notifications from a fb
group. Archers Addicts? This emailing me of comments is new to me. With
too much time on my hands recently, I began to read and engage. I have now
found out how to turn the notifications off. Scurried back to umra where
we seem to disagree in a more acceptable fashion omho.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Rosalind Mitchell
2018-03-04 11:22:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Btms
He really is a miserable nugger but........ there seems to be a lot of get
over yourself attitude directed at him from listeners. Given the way his
wife behaved and the history of Ed’s behaviour, I think this is a big ask.
Of course, he is hurting himself more than others, with his inability to
move on but I am not sure I could get back from a similar set of
experiences. He has worked to improve his prospects but gets little
appreciation from his wife. He comes from a family of feckless men who at
best might be described as lovable rogues struggling to survive in the
capitalist world without the nouse of the likes of Briahn and Justin, in
the get rich schemes.
Thank you. I don't particularly like Will's personality either. I
suspect that a lot of his trouble comes from having been foisted with a
rubbish Best Friend who has only one note. I suspect nepotism, BF being
Son of Davros and all that; there's definitely something Dalek-like
about Will. Will is a bitter and twisted man with much to be bitter and
twisted about. Emma is a prize bitch – Eric Berne summed her up nicely
in one of his games: Let's You And Him Fight. Ed is no angel either; he
was always pathologically jealous of his older brother having
anything. Remember how he had a good thing going with Fallon until it
seemed that Will and Emma might be about to patch things up.
Post by Btms
Now he is being much attacked in another place for his reaction to Nic’s
death. It astounds me how much folk lack humanity and empathy; and
sometimes I despair of this world.
There's probably no more hypocrisy about anything than there is about
death. Nobody can predict how they will respond to the death of somebody
close, but Society expects very specific reactions and anybody who isn't
seen to be behaving appropriately is clearly a wrong 'un. People have
gone to Death Row in the US for not behaving as expected at a funeral.

Will is suffering. He is eaten up by guilt for not being there; not only
at the moment of death but all the time Nic was at home seriously ill
when he could have got her to A&E in time. He'll get through that, of
course, although there will always be scars. I've been thinking we are
working up to Will's moment of self-realisation, and maybe a climactic
episode leading to a final reconciliation. Or perhaps death. The Beetle
said all those years ago that the storyline would run on for a long
time, and it's been fifteen years now and getting very tedious. (Who
else wishes they hadn't said all those rude things about the Beetle).
Post by Btms
However, the boot is on the other foot for me where that Emurr is
concerned. Unredeemable.
Yes, pots kettle and black. But she doesn’t ever question her part in Will
being such a miserable old s*d.
Fazakerley.

Rotoo
Jenny M Benson
2018-03-05 17:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rosalind Mitchell
There's probably no more hypocrisy about anything than there is about
death. Nobody can predict how they will respond to the death of somebody
close, but Society expects very specific reactions and anybody who isn't
seen to be behaving appropriately is clearly a wrong 'un. People have
gone to Death Row in the US for not behaving as expected at a funeral.
I'd have thought even someone going postal at a funeral was to be
expected in the US these days.
--
Jenny M Benson
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