Discussion:
Fruit pickers
(too old to reply)
LFS
2018-05-24 05:46:00 UTC
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Today's news suggests that Adam should contact the local prison for help.
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Mike
2018-05-24 07:48:08 UTC
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Post by LFS
Today's news suggests that Adam should contact the local prison for help.
And he needn’t actually hand wages over each week; he could promise them
‘jam tomorrow’ *- oh sorry, he’s not a poly tishon so wouldn’t necesscelery
have the gift of the gab to do that.

*Strawberry, natch.
--
Toodle Pip
Vicky Ayech
2018-05-24 08:41:43 UTC
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Post by LFS
Today's news suggests that Adam should contact the local prison for help.
And he needn’t actually hand wages over each week; he could promise them
‘jam tomorrow’ *- oh sorry, he’s not a poly tishon so wouldn’t necesscelery
have the gift of the gab to do that.
*Strawberry, natch.
He could try local schools and colleges, or have they already
suggested that? Work Experience and holiday work after exams.
He could also contact Phoebe and ask her to bring down a group. It
would be £££ and accommodation in caravans and parties.
Btms
2018-05-24 13:41:34 UTC
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Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by LFS
Today's news suggests that Adam should contact the local prison for help.
And he needn’t actually hand wages over each week; he could promise them
‘jam tomorrow’ *- oh sorry, he’s not a poly tishon so wouldn’t necesscelery
have the gift of the gab to do that.
*Strawberry, natch.
He could try local schools and colleges, or have they already
suggested that? Work Experience and holiday work after exams.
He could also contact Phoebe and ask her to bring down a group. It
would be £££ and accommodation in caravans and parties.
Have you seen the state of those caravans!
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Mike
2018-05-24 13:50:01 UTC
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Post by Btms
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by LFS
Today's news suggests that Adam should contact the local prison for help.
And he needn’t actually hand wages over each week; he could promise them
‘jam tomorrow’ *- oh sorry, he’s not a poly tishon so wouldn’t necesscelery
have the gift of the gab to do that.
*Strawberry, natch.
He could try local schools and colleges, or have they already
suggested that? Work Experience and holiday work after exams.
He could also contact Phoebe and ask her to bring down a group. It
would be £££ and accommodation in caravans and parties.
Have you seen the state of those caravans!
... and the parties can be a real riot...
--
Toodle Pip
Btms
2018-05-24 15:13:11 UTC
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Post by Mike
Post by Btms
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by LFS
Today's news suggests that Adam should contact the local prison for help.
And he needn’t actually hand wages over each week; he could promise them
‘jam tomorrow’ *- oh sorry, he’s not a poly tishon so wouldn’t necesscelery
have the gift of the gab to do that.
*Strawberry, natch.
He could try local schools and colleges, or have they already
suggested that? Work Experience and holiday work after exams.
He could also contact Phoebe and ask her to bring down a group. It
would be £££ and accommodation in caravans and parties.
Have you seen the state of those caravans!
... and the parties can be a real riot...
That may account for the pong!
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
krw
2018-05-27 14:55:17 UTC
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Post by Btms
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by LFS
Today's news suggests that Adam should contact the local prison for help.
And he needn’t actually hand wages over each week; he could promise them
‘jam tomorrow’ *- oh sorry, he’s not a poly tishon so wouldn’t necesscelery
have the gift of the gab to do that.
*Strawberry, natch.
He could try local schools and colleges, or have they already
suggested that? Work Experience and holiday work after exams.
He could also contact Phoebe and ask her to bring down a group. It
would be £££ and accommodation in caravans and parties.
Have you seen the state of those caravans!
.... and the parties can be a real riot...
Jammy beggars.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
krw
2018-05-27 14:54:53 UTC
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Post by Vicky Ayech
He could try local schools and colleges, or have they already
suggested that?
Wofe has been telling me that schools in Leicestershire used to have a
week off so they could go potato picking - not that she ever did.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Rosemary Miskin
2018-05-27 17:34:18 UTC
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Wofe has been telling me that schools in LeicesLincol shire tershire used to have a 
week off so they could go potato picking -
and in Lincolnshire - still happened when we lived there about 1980. Not sure
if the kids actually did any picking (ours were too young), but they
got the holiday!

Rosemary
Mike
2018-05-27 17:37:54 UTC
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Post by Rosemary Miskin
Wofe has been telling me that schools in LeicesLincol shire tershire used to have a 
week off so they could go potato picking -
and in Lincolnshire - still happened when we lived there about 1980. Not sure
if the kids actually did any picking (ours were too young), but they
got the holiday!
Rosemary
Very much like the families that used to go hop picking.
--
Toodle Pip
Penny
2018-05-27 22:33:22 UTC
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On Sun, 27 May 2018 17:37:54 GMT, Mike <***@ntlworld.com> scrawled
in the dust...
Post by Mike
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Wofe has been telling me that schools in LeicesLincol shire tershire used to have a 
week off so they could go potato picking -
and in Lincolnshire - still happened when we lived there about 1980. Not sure
if the kids actually did any picking (ours were too young), but they
got the holiday!
Rosemary
Very much like the families that used to go hop picking.
The holiday request forms I handed out at school when I worked there in the
'90s included a sentence to say children would only be allowed time off for
a family holiday and not for hop or apple picking. It was a very small
village school and the forms came in pads of 50. I think they were very out
of date - I was only asked for one or two per year,
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
krw
2018-05-28 09:32:32 UTC
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Post by Mike
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Wofe has been telling me that schools in LeicesLincol shire tershire used to have a
week off so they could go potato picking -
and in Lincolnshire - still happened when we lived there about 1980. Not sure
if the kids actually did any picking (ours were too young), but they
got the holiday!
Rosemary
Very much like the families that used to go hop picking.
I thought the main hop picking season was actually within the main
school summer holiday during August?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Kate B
2018-05-28 10:08:19 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Mike
  >Wofe has been telling me that schools in LeicesLincol shire
tershire used to have a
Post by krw
week off so they could go potato picking -
and in Lincolnshire - still happened when we lived there about 1980. Not sure
if the kids actually did any picking (ours were too young), but they
got the holiday!
Rosemary
Very much like the families that used to go hop picking.
I thought the main hop picking season was actually within the main
school summer holiday during August?
I thought the whole point of having the long summer school holiday was
so that the whole family could be put to work in the various August
harvests.
--
Kate B
London
krw
2018-05-28 10:38:22 UTC
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Post by Kate B
Post by krw
Post by Mike
  >Wofe has been telling me that schools in LeicesLincol shire
tershire used to have a
Post by krw
week off so they could go potato picking -
and in Lincolnshire - still happened when we lived there about 1980. Not sure
if the kids actually did any picking (ours were too young), but they
got the holiday!
Rosemary
Very much like the families that used to go hop picking.
I thought the main hop picking season was actually within the main
school summer holiday during August?
I thought the whole point of having the long summer school holiday was
so that the whole family could be put to work in the various August
harvests.
But potato lifting was during term time - hence the Lincs/Leics holidays.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Kate B
2018-05-28 11:02:29 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Kate B
Post by krw
Post by Mike
  >Wofe has been telling me that schools in LeicesLincol shire
tershire used to have a
Post by krw
week off so they could go potato picking -
and in Lincolnshire - still happened when we lived there about 1980. Not sure
if the kids actually did any picking (ours were too young), but they
got the holiday!
Rosemary
Very much like the families that used to go hop picking.
I thought the main hop picking season was actually within the main
school summer holiday during August?
I thought the whole point of having the long summer school holiday was
so that the whole family could be put to work in the various August
harvests.
But potato lifting was during term time - hence the Lincs/Leics holidays.
Potatoes is new-fangled imported furrin stuff, hence extra holidays. The
academic year is at least mediaeval in origin.
--
Kate B
London
Anne B
2018-06-06 08:37:12 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Vicky Ayech
He could try local schools and colleges, or have they already
suggested that?
Wofe has been telling me that schools in Leicestershire used to have a
week off so they could go potato picking - not that she ever did.
When I was at school the autumn break was always called the tattie (i.e.
potato) holidays - the idea being that schoolchildren went to help with
the potato harvest.

And schools here still break up for the summer at the end of June, a
relic of the time when everyone went to the berry picking in July.

These days, what with polytunnels and varities that ripen at different
times, the picking season is far longer than the school holidays.

Anne B
Penny
2018-06-06 10:18:57 UTC
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On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 09:37:12 +0100, Anne B <***@btinternet.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Anne B
Post by krw
Post by Vicky Ayech
He could try local schools and colleges, or have they already
suggested that?
Wofe has been telling me that schools in Leicestershire used to have a
week off so they could go potato picking - not that she ever did.
When I was at school the autumn break was always called the tattie (i.e.
potato) holidays - the idea being that schoolchildren went to help with
the potato harvest.
And schools here still break up for the summer at the end of June, a
relic of the time when everyone went to the berry picking in July.
It surprised me as a child to find the schools were working when we
holidayed in Scotland in late August/early September.
Post by Anne B
These days, what with polytunnels and varities that ripen at different
times, the picking season is far longer than the school holidays.
Until relatively recently (IIRC it was still happening when I was a regular
contributor to uk.education.staffroom) schools in parts of England had a
two week break during the summer term for Wakes Weeks during which the
mills were shut for annual maintenance. I think it was originally based on
a religious holiday but why it was two weeks long, I've no idea. Schools
involved consequently started their summer break later.

I've lived and worked in paper-producing towns but didn't notice the
mill-shut week until I worked in Hemel Hempstead and took the bus to work.
It was virtually empty for the week. Not something I'd noticed when I went
to school there but suppose mill-shut coincided with a school holiday.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
BrritSki
2018-06-06 14:40:10 UTC
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Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Anne B
Post by krw
Post by Vicky Ayech
He could try local schools and colleges, or have they already
suggested that?
Wofe has been telling me that schools in Leicestershire used to have a
week off so they could go potato picking - not that she ever did.
When I was at school the autumn break was always called the tattie (i.e.
potato) holidays - the idea being that schoolchildren went to help with
the potato harvest.
And schools here still break up for the summer at the end of June, a
relic of the time when everyone went to the berry picking in July.
It surprised me as a child to find the schools were working when we
holidayed in Scotland in late August/early September.
Post by Anne B
These days, what with polytunnels and varities that ripen at different
times, the picking season is far longer than the school holidays.
Until relatively recently (IIRC it was still happening when I was a regular
contributor to uk.education.staffroom) schools in parts of England had a
two week break during the summer term for Wakes Weeks during which the
mills were shut for annual maintenance. I think it was originally based on
a religious holiday but why it was two weeks long, I've no idea. Schools
involved consequently started their summer break later.
I've lived and worked in paper-producing towns but didn't notice the
mill-shut week until I worked in Hemel Hempstead and took the bus to work.
It was virtually empty for the week. Not something I'd noticed when I went
to school there but suppose mill-shut coincided with a school holiday.
We are always surprised when we go to Denmark at the start of August and
find the children already back at school...
Fenny
2018-06-06 17:12:52 UTC
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Post by Penny
Until relatively recently (IIRC it was still happening when I was a regular
contributor to uk.education.staffroom) schools in parts of England had a
two week break during the summer term for Wakes Weeks during which the
mills were shut for annual maintenance. I think it was originally based on
a religious holiday but why it was two weeks long, I've no idea. Schools
involved consequently started their summer break later.
The mill towns in Wet Yorkshire staggered their Wakes / shutdown weeks
so that they weren't all heading off to the seaside at the same time.
Even when I was at school, Keighley still had September break. Their
schools went back the last week in August, before us, then had a week
off in September. I can't remember if it was still going when I was
in Huddersfield.

When I was in Huddersfield, our factory shutdown was the last week in
August, which meant we always did stocktake on the Bank Holiday
weekend, so us Finance types had to work.
--
Fenny
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-06 12:33:04 UTC
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In message <pf86fq$tiq$***@dont-email.me>, Anne B
<***@btinternet.com> writes:
[]
Post by Anne B
These days, what with polytunnels and varities that ripen at different
times, the picking season is far longer than the school holidays.
Anne B
Yes, I think this is the first year when I've seen (English, not just
Spanish) strawberries available continuously, even in Lidl. (I think
there might have been one or two weeks, a few weeks ago, when they
weren't.) The ones I bought on Saturday were/are nice. And they _don't_
last that long, so I assume the picking must be more or less continuous.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"In the _car_-park? What are you doing there?" "Parking cars, what else does one
do in a car-park?" (First series, fit the fifth.)
Fred
2018-06-06 16:15:37 UTC
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Post by Anne B
When I was at school the autumn break was always called the tattie (i.e.
potato) holidays - the idea being that schoolchildren went to help with
the potato harvest.
In Sunderland (and I assume the rest of the area) it was Blackberry week.

Fred
Chris B
2018-06-06 17:17:43 UTC
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Post by Anne B
And schools here still break up for the summer at the end of June, a
relic of the time when everyone went to the berry picking in July.
These days, what with polytunnels and varities that ripen at different
times, the picking season is far longer than the school holidays.
So isn't it time that the schools recognised this and rather than
stopping for 6 weeks in the summer (when prices for everything rocket)
they organise their lives round a 52 week teaching year, with students
and staff taking staggered holidays? (Just like the rest of the world of
work)

After all "wakes week/fortnight" was standard in many industries in the
50's and 60s, but are there any factories now left that shut down for
one or two weeks in the summer?

The rest of the world has moved on - why not the teaching profession.
--
Chris B (News)
Penny
2018-06-06 22:52:43 UTC
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On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 18:17:43 +0100, Chris B <***@salis.co.uk> scrawled in
the dust...
Post by Chris B
After all "wakes week/fortnight" was standard in many industries in the
50's and 60s, but are there any factories now left that shut down for
one or two weeks in the summer?
Any continuous process works - paper, steel, cloth etc - is going to need
'proper' maintenance on a regular basis, surely. The husgod spoke of
replacing the make-do-and-mend 6 inch nail fuses and other such temporary
fixes when he was apprentice engineer at the paper mill.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Fenny
2018-06-07 20:18:14 UTC
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Post by Chris B
So isn't it time that the schools recognised this and rather than
stopping for 6 weeks in the summer (when prices for everything rocket)
they organise their lives round a 52 week teaching year, with students
and staff taking staggered holidays? (Just like the rest of the world of
work)
After all "wakes week/fortnight" was standard in many industries in the
50's and 60s, but are there any factories now left that shut down for
one or two weeks in the summer?
The rest of the world has moved on - why not the teaching profession.
Because the "teaching profession" is in the business of educating
children. Most people don't work continuously, but choose when they
want to take time off. If kids in classes take time off to suit their
parents, and there are no specific holiday periods, how can anyone
follow a teaching plan for a class.

When would scouts, guides and other organisations pick when to have
their camps? The summer is usually marginally better weather than
other times of the year. Nobody is going to take a bunch of teenagers
camping for 2 weeks in November.

However much people don't like the way that travel agents jack up the
prices when the schools are off, this is all to do with supply and
demand. Changing the demand has to be organised in a sensible way.
You could have every county having different fortnights off, but then
any teacher who works in a different county from their home will end
up not being able to go on holiday with their children.

If anyone can *actually* produce a sensible way to stagger school
holidays so that people can have time off in the decent weather,
they're on to a winner, but they still have to get it agreed.
--
Fenny
Chris B
2018-06-08 08:26:30 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Fenny
Post by Chris B
So isn't it time that the schools recognised this and rather than
stopping for 6 weeks in the summer (when prices for everything rocket)
they organise their lives round a 52 week teaching year, with students
and staff taking staggered holidays? (Just like the rest of the world of
work)
After all "wakes week/fortnight" was standard in many industries in the
50's and 60s, but are there any factories now left that shut down for
one or two weeks in the summer?
The rest of the world has moved on - why not the teaching profession.
Because the "teaching profession" is in the business of educating
children. Most people don't work continuously, but choose when they
want to take time off. If kids in classes take time off to suit their
parents, and there are no specific holiday periods, how can anyone
follow a teaching plan for a class.
Maybe it needs a whole new way of producing teaching plans. All I am
saying is that the education system as a whole seems to have been left
behind with regards to changes in the workplace. The current
holiday/term patterns are derived from a world that has not existed for
quite some time. I find the answer "It just cant be done" difficult to
accept.
Post by Fenny
When would scouts, guides and other organisations pick when to have
their camps? The summer is usually marginally better weather than
other times of the year. Nobody is going to take a bunch of teenagers
camping for 2 weeks in November.
However much people don't like the way that travel agents jack up the
prices when the schools are off, this is all to do with supply and
demand. Changing the demand has to be organised in a sensible way.
You could have every county having different fortnights off, but then
any teacher who works in a different county from their home will end
up not being able to go on holiday with their children.
I am not suggesting synchronised holidays by region, county or anything
else, but a method of teaching that can cater for a certain percentage
of staff/pupils being away at any given time. Obviously there would
have to a certain number of "fixtures" such as exams but again in many
areas of non academic work there are certain times (generally short)
which are "peak effort" and holidays are not allowed.
Post by Fenny
If anyone can *actually* produce a sensible way to stagger school
holidays so that people can have time off in the decent weather,
they're on to a winner, but they still have to get it agreed.
Why do you think they would struggle to get such a system agreed. To me
if such a system can be devised it would seem such a no brainier that
there would be universal acceptance.

Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
--
Chris B (News)
Vicky Ayech
2018-06-08 10:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris B
Post by Fenny
Post by Chris B
So isn't it time that the schools recognised this and rather than
stopping for 6 weeks in the summer (when prices for everything rocket)
they organise their lives round a 52 week teaching year, with students
and staff taking staggered holidays? (Just like the rest of the world of
work)
After all "wakes week/fortnight" was standard in many industries in the
50's and 60s, but are there any factories now left that shut down for
one or two weeks in the summer?
The rest of the world has moved on - why not the teaching profession.
Because the "teaching profession" is in the business of educating
children. Most people don't work continuously, but choose when they
want to take time off. If kids in classes take time off to suit their
parents, and there are no specific holiday periods, how can anyone
follow a teaching plan for a class.
Maybe it needs a whole new way of producing teaching plans. All I am
saying is that the education system as a whole seems to have been left
behind with regards to changes in the workplace. The current
holiday/term patterns are derived from a world that has not existed for
quite some time. I find the answer "It just cant be done" difficult to
accept.
Post by Fenny
When would scouts, guides and other organisations pick when to have
their camps? The summer is usually marginally better weather than
other times of the year. Nobody is going to take a bunch of teenagers
camping for 2 weeks in November.
However much people don't like the way that travel agents jack up the
prices when the schools are off, this is all to do with supply and
demand. Changing the demand has to be organised in a sensible way.
You could have every county having different fortnights off, but then
any teacher who works in a different county from their home will end
up not being able to go on holiday with their children.
I am not suggesting synchronised holidays by region, county or anything
else, but a method of teaching that can cater for a certain percentage
of staff/pupils being away at any given time. Obviously there would
have to a certain number of "fixtures" such as exams but again in many
areas of non academic work there are certain times (generally short)
which are "peak effort" and holidays are not allowed.
Post by Fenny
If anyone can *actually* produce a sensible way to stagger school
holidays so that people can have time off in the decent weather,
they're on to a winner, but they still have to get it agreed.
Why do you think they would struggle to get such a system agreed. To me
if such a system can be devised it would seem such a no brainier that
there would be universal acceptance.
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
As well as fixed exam times you could have fixed weeks when nobody can
be away, when the teacher is teaching the points. Later can be the
weeks of working on examples to practise skills. For subjects like
history or geography there can be core weeks too and exploration, and
project weeks where students do individual or group work. There might
be advantages with staggered absences; more indivitual attention could
be given to each child. It would mitigate against too large classes.
Penny
2018-06-08 12:08:38 UTC
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On Fri, 08 Jun 2018 11:19:17 +0100, Vicky Ayech <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
As well as fixed exam times you could have fixed weeks when nobody can
be away, when the teacher is teaching the points. Later can be the
weeks of working on examples to practise skills. For subjects like
history or geography there can be core weeks too and exploration, and
project weeks where students do individual or group work. There might
be advantages with staggered absences; more indivitual attention could
be given to each child. It would mitigate against too large classes.
I think many working parents would find it difficult. Not least those
working in local businesses. Families who want to holiday during current
half-term breaks often find they cannot because their colleagues want to
too.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
agsmith578688@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury Glos.
2018-06-08 13:33:55 UTC
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Post by Penny
I think many working parents would find it difficult. Not least those
working in local businesses. Families who want to holiday during current
half-term breaks often find they cannot because their colleagues want to
too.
I was quite relieved when I managed to book leave for the Total Solar Eclipse of 1999, as I had thought my colleagues might have also wanted to see it.
Btms
2018-06-08 10:48:16 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Chris B
Post by Fenny
Post by Chris B
So isn't it time that the schools recognised this and rather than
stopping for 6 weeks in the summer (when prices for everything rocket)
they organise their lives round a 52 week teaching year, with students
and staff taking staggered holidays? (Just like the rest of the world of
work)
After all "wakes week/fortnight" was standard in many industries in the
50's and 60s, but are there any factories now left that shut down for
one or two weeks in the summer?
The rest of the world has moved on - why not the teaching profession.
Because the "teaching profession" is in the business of educating
children. Most people don't work continuously, but choose when they
want to take time off. If kids in classes take time off to suit their
parents, and there are no specific holiday periods, how can anyone
follow a teaching plan for a class.
Maybe it needs a whole new way of producing teaching plans. All I am
saying is that the education system as a whole seems to have been left
behind with regards to changes in the workplace. The current
holiday/term patterns are derived from a world that has not existed for
quite some time. I find the answer "It just cant be done" difficult to
accept.
Post by Fenny
When would scouts, guides and other organisations pick when to have
their camps? The summer is usually marginally better weather than
other times of the year. Nobody is going to take a bunch of teenagers
camping for 2 weeks in November.
However much people don't like the way that travel agents jack up the
prices when the schools are off, this is all to do with supply and
demand. Changing the demand has to be organised in a sensible way.
You could have every county having different fortnights off, but then
any teacher who works in a different county from their home will end
up not being able to go on holiday with their children.
I am not suggesting synchronised holidays by region, county or anything
else, but a method of teaching that can cater for a certain percentage
of staff/pupils being away at any given time. Obviously there would
have to a certain number of "fixtures" such as exams but again in many
areas of non academic work there are certain times (generally short)
which are "peak effort" and holidays are not allowed.
Post by Fenny
If anyone can *actually* produce a sensible way to stagger school
holidays so that people can have time off in the decent weather,
they're on to a winner, but they still have to get it agreed.
Why do you think they would struggle to get such a system agreed. To me
if such a system can be devised it would seem such a no brainier that
there would be universal acceptance.
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
I agree. But folk do tend to find objections to change ime.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sam Plusnet
2018-06-08 20:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris B
Post by Fenny
If anyone can *actually* produce a sensible way to stagger school
holidays so that people can have time off in the decent weather,
they're on to a winner, but they still have to get it agreed.
Why do you think they would struggle to get such a system agreed. To me
if such a system can be devised it would seem such a no brainier that
there would be universal acceptance.
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
No brainers tend to be more complex than they first appear.
Parents who have children at two (or more) schools with different
holidays would not be very pleased.
--
Sam Plusnet
Fenny
2018-06-08 22:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris B
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
Yes

There have been many suggestions around moving away from the 3 term
academic year and having shorter "terms" with different holidays
spaced out through the year.

IIRC, Nottingham City Council wanted to introduce this system, whilst
Nottinghamshire County Council wanted to keep the old one. Of course,
all the people - parents and children - who had family members in one
area and worked in a different area, knew it wouldn't work.

I have a friend who lives in Essex, with kids in 2 different schools,
and taught in Suffolk. Each of the 3 schools were on the 3 term
system, but all had different holidays.

Our local primary school recently proposed closing at lunchtime on
Fridays to give their staff a better working environment. That would
mean all the pupils from 4 to 11 having to be picked up at 1pm, or
have additional paid childcare for 2 hours a week. Because parents
can all wangle an afternoon off on a Friday.

But why should anyone take any notice of whether teachers get the same
holidays as kids. Everyone else is always an expert when it comes to
how schools and education work. It's a wonder there's such a shortage
of teachers and high numbers leaving the profession.
--
Fenny
Chris B
2018-06-09 08:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fenny
Post by Chris B
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
Yes
There have been many suggestions around moving away from the 3 term
academic year and having shorter "terms" with different holidays
spaced out through the year.
IIRC, Nottingham City Council wanted to introduce this system, whilst
Nottinghamshire County Council wanted to keep the old one. Of course,
all the people - parents and children - who had family members in one
area and worked in a different area, knew it wouldn't work.
I have a friend who lives in Essex, with kids in 2 different schools,
and taught in Suffolk. Each of the 3 schools were on the 3 term
system, but all had different holidays.
Our local primary school recently proposed closing at lunchtime on
Fridays to give their staff a better working environment. That would
mean all the pupils from 4 to 11 having to be picked up at 1pm, or
have additional paid childcare for 2 hours a week. Because parents
can all wangle an afternoon off on a Friday.
But why should anyone take any notice of whether teachers get the same
holidays as kids. Everyone else is always an expert when it comes to
how schools and education work. It's a wonder there's such a shortage
of teachers and high numbers leaving the profession.
I have clearly touched a nerve, I'm not am expert and that's why I asked
a (fairly simple) question, rather than say "you should do t like this".

The examples you give are all where different schools shut down at
different times, and I agree with you it clearly wont work for parents
with children in different schools.

My question is not about shutting down at different times but about all
schools operating for 52 weeks of the year, with individuals (students
and staff) taking leave as it suits them. Suitable cover would need to
be in place when staff are away, just as it is in most other areas of
employment. (With as i said in a previous posting a few obvious "fixed
dates" around exams.)
--
Chris B (News)
Btms
2018-06-09 09:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris B
Post by Fenny
Post by Chris B
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
Yes
There have been many suggestions around moving away from the 3 term
academic year and having shorter "terms" with different holidays
spaced out through the year.
IIRC, Nottingham City Council wanted to introduce this system, whilst
Nottinghamshire County Council wanted to keep the old one. Of course,
all the people - parents and children - who had family members in one
area and worked in a different area, knew it wouldn't work.
I have a friend who lives in Essex, with kids in 2 different schools,
and taught in Suffolk. Each of the 3 schools were on the 3 term
system, but all had different holidays.
Our local primary school recently proposed closing at lunchtime on
Fridays to give their staff a better working environment. That would
mean all the pupils from 4 to 11 having to be picked up at 1pm, or
have additional paid childcare for 2 hours a week. Because parents
can all wangle an afternoon off on a Friday.
But why should anyone take any notice of whether teachers get the same
holidays as kids. Everyone else is always an expert when it comes to
how schools and education work. It's a wonder there's such a shortage
of teachers and high numbers leaving the profession.
I have clearly touched a nerve, I'm not am expert and that's why I asked
a (fairly simple) question, rather than say "you should do t like this".
The examples you give are all where different schools shut down at
different times, and I agree with you it clearly wont work for parents
with children in different schools.
My question is not about shutting down at different times but about all
schools operating for 52 weeks of the year, with individuals (students
and staff) taking leave as it suits them. Suitable cover would need to
be in place when staff are away, just as it is in most other areas of
employment. (With as i said in a previous posting a few obvious "fixed
dates" around exams.)
I like the idea but the requirement to work to a lesson plan may sabotage.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Sam Plusnet
2018-06-09 23:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris B
Post by Fenny
Post by Chris B
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
Yes
There have been many suggestions around moving away from the 3 term
academic year and having shorter "terms" with different holidays
spaced out through the year.
IIRC, Nottingham City Council wanted to introduce this system, whilst
Nottinghamshire County Council wanted to keep the old one.  Of course,
all the people - parents and children - who had family members in one
area and worked in a different area, knew it wouldn't work.
I have a friend who lives in Essex, with kids in 2 different schools,
and taught in Suffolk.  Each of the 3 schools were on the 3 term
system, but all had different holidays.
Our local primary school recently proposed closing at lunchtime on
Fridays to give their staff a better working environment.  That would
mean all the pupils from 4 to 11 having to be picked up at 1pm, or
have additional paid childcare for 2 hours a week.  Because parents
can all wangle an afternoon off on a Friday.
But why should anyone take any notice of whether teachers get the same
holidays as kids.  Everyone else is always an expert when it comes to
how schools and education work.  It's a wonder there's such a shortage
of teachers and high numbers leaving the profession.
I have clearly touched a nerve, I'm not am expert and that's why I asked
a (fairly simple) question, rather than say "you should do t like this".
The examples you give are all where different schools shut down at
different times, and I agree with you it clearly wont work for parents
with children in different schools.
My question is not about shutting down at different times but about all
schools operating for 52 weeks of the year, with individuals (students
and staff) taking leave as it suits them.  Suitable cover would need to
be in place when staff are away, just as it is in most other areas of
employment. (With as i said in a previous posting a few obvious "fixed
dates" around exams.)
Wouldn't a school, which had to operate for 52 weeks a year[1], need
significantly more staff than at present in order to cover for those
taking holidays?

On any given day you would need to ensure the right numbers of staff,
each with the appropriate skill-set.

[1] Not even time off for Xmas?
--
Sam Plusnet
Nick Odell
2018-06-10 23:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Chris B
Post by Fenny
Post by Chris B
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
Yes
There have been many suggestions around moving away from the 3 term
academic year and having shorter "terms" with different holidays
spaced out through the year.
IIRC, Nottingham City Council wanted to introduce this system, whilst
Nottinghamshire County Council wanted to keep the old one.  Of course,
all the people - parents and children - who had family members in one
area and worked in a different area, knew it wouldn't work.
I have a friend who lives in Essex, with kids in 2 different schools,
and taught in Suffolk.  Each of the 3 schools were on the 3 term
system, but all had different holidays.
Our local primary school recently proposed closing at lunchtime on
Fridays to give their staff a better working environment.  That would
mean all the pupils from 4 to 11 having to be picked up at 1pm, or
have additional paid childcare for 2 hours a week.  Because parents
can all wangle an afternoon off on a Friday.
But why should anyone take any notice of whether teachers get the same
holidays as kids.  Everyone else is always an expert when it comes to
how schools and education work.  It's a wonder there's such a shortage
of teachers and high numbers leaving the profession.
I have clearly touched a nerve, I'm not am expert and that's why I
asked a (fairly simple) question, rather than say "you should do t
like this".
The examples you give are all where different schools shut down at
different times, and I agree with you it clearly wont work for parents
with children in different schools.
My question is not about shutting down at different times but about
all schools operating for 52 weeks of the year, with individuals
(students and staff) taking leave as it suits them.  Suitable cover
would need to be in place when staff are away, just as it is in most
other areas of employment. (With as i said in a previous posting a few
obvious "fixed dates" around exams.)
Wouldn't a school, which had to operate for 52 weeks a year[1], need
significantly more staff than at present in order to cover for those
taking holidays?
On any given day you would need to ensure the right numbers of staff,
each with the appropriate skill-set.
[1] Not even time off for Xmas?
What about timetabling vertically instead of horizontally? (Or
horizontally instead of vertically depending upon your point of view.)

Easier in secondary schools I suppose but I wouldn't rule it out for
primaries. So, instead of teaching all four teaching groups in year
eight -say- drama -say- once a week for thirty-nine teaching weeks, you
offer the drama module to the whole year group four times a year with
gaps between the modules. The student whose family have booked a month's
winter holiday in Barbados will jolly well have to negotiate a place to
do drama in the spring, summer or autumn offering and the drama teacher
can book their long holiday during any of the thirteen "off" weeks.
Rinse and repeat for all the other subjects on offer. You do away with
the requirement for daily attendance and replace it with the requirement
to complete "x" number of modules - which can't so easily be monitored
on a daily registration but can be monitored. Compared with monitoring a
frictionless NI/RI border it ought to be child's play.

One objection I can see is the Sports Master married to the Chemistry
Mistress (or married to the Chemistry Master - please yourselves)
complaining that they can never take time off together. Well, a- they
can do if the rolling timetable produces enough "sweet spots" and b- it
places them in no worse a situation than the mixed
schoolteacher/industrial relationship nowadays where the industrial
partner can never take time off in the school holidays because its a
peak time for their business.

Yes, I know the idea needs some work but is it totally useless? Applause
to ***@etc,etc. Abuse to ***@parliament.gov.uk

Nick
Vicky Ayech
2018-06-11 08:19:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 00:14:35 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Chris B
Post by Fenny
Post by Chris B
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
Yes
There have been many suggestions around moving away from the 3 term
academic year and having shorter "terms" with different holidays
spaced out through the year.
IIRC, Nottingham City Council wanted to introduce this system, whilst
Nottinghamshire County Council wanted to keep the old one.  Of course,
all the people - parents and children - who had family members in one
area and worked in a different area, knew it wouldn't work.
I have a friend who lives in Essex, with kids in 2 different schools,
and taught in Suffolk.  Each of the 3 schools were on the 3 term
system, but all had different holidays.
Our local primary school recently proposed closing at lunchtime on
Fridays to give their staff a better working environment.  That would
mean all the pupils from 4 to 11 having to be picked up at 1pm, or
have additional paid childcare for 2 hours a week.  Because parents
can all wangle an afternoon off on a Friday.
But why should anyone take any notice of whether teachers get the same
holidays as kids.  Everyone else is always an expert when it comes to
how schools and education work.  It's a wonder there's such a shortage
of teachers and high numbers leaving the profession.
I have clearly touched a nerve, I'm not am expert and that's why I
asked a (fairly simple) question, rather than say "you should do t
like this".
The examples you give are all where different schools shut down at
different times, and I agree with you it clearly wont work for parents
with children in different schools.
My question is not about shutting down at different times but about
all schools operating for 52 weeks of the year, with individuals
(students and staff) taking leave as it suits them.  Suitable cover
would need to be in place when staff are away, just as it is in most
other areas of employment. (With as i said in a previous posting a few
obvious "fixed dates" around exams.)
Wouldn't a school, which had to operate for 52 weeks a year[1], need
significantly more staff than at present in order to cover for those
taking holidays?
On any given day you would need to ensure the right numbers of staff,
each with the appropriate skill-set.
[1] Not even time off for Xmas?
What about timetabling vertically instead of horizontally? (Or
horizontally instead of vertically depending upon your point of view.)
Easier in secondary schools I suppose but I wouldn't rule it out for
primaries. So, instead of teaching all four teaching groups in year
eight -say- drama -say- once a week for thirty-nine teaching weeks, you
offer the drama module to the whole year group four times a year with
gaps between the modules. The student whose family have booked a month's
winter holiday in Barbados will jolly well have to negotiate a place to
do drama in the spring, summer or autumn offering and the drama teacher
can book their long holiday during any of the thirteen "off" weeks.
Rinse and repeat for all the other subjects on offer. You do away with
the requirement for daily attendance and replace it with the requirement
to complete "x" number of modules - which can't so easily be monitored
on a daily registration but can be monitored. Compared with monitoring a
frictionless NI/RI border it ought to be child's play.
One objection I can see is the Sports Master married to the Chemistry
Mistress (or married to the Chemistry Master - please yourselves)
complaining that they can never take time off together. Well, a- they
can do if the rolling timetable produces enough "sweet spots" and b- it
places them in no worse a situation than the mixed
schoolteacher/industrial relationship nowadays where the industrial
partner can never take time off in the school holidays because its a
peak time for their business.
Yes, I know the idea needs some work but is it totally useless? Applause
Nick
Had you thought of standing for parliament, or a civil service job
organising things? If umrats ruled.....
Chris B
2018-06-11 09:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
[1] Not even time off for Xmas?
What about timetabling vertically instead of horizontally? (Or
horizontally instead of vertically depending upon your point of view.)
Easier in secondary schools I suppose but I wouldn't rule it out for
primaries. So, instead of teaching all four teaching groups in year
eight -say- drama -say- once a week for thirty-nine teaching weeks, you
offer the drama module to the whole year group four times a year with
gaps between the modules. The student whose family have booked a month's
winter holiday in Barbados will jolly well have to negotiate a place to
do drama in the spring, summer or autumn offering and the drama teacher
can book their long holiday during any of the thirteen "off" weeks.
Rinse and repeat for all the other subjects on offer. You do away with
the requirement for daily attendance and replace it with the requirement
to complete "x" number of modules - which can't so easily be monitored
on a daily registration but can be monitored. Compared with monitoring a
frictionless NI/RI border it ought to be child's play.
One objection I can see is the Sports Master married to the Chemistry
Mistress (or married to the Chemistry Master - please yourselves)
complaining that they can never take time off together. Well, a- they
can do if the rolling timetable produces enough "sweet spots" and b- it
places them in no worse a situation than the mixed
schoolteacher/industrial relationship nowadays where the industrial
partner can never take time off in the school holidays because its a
peak time for their business.
Yes, I know the idea needs some work but is it totally useless? Applause
Nick
That is very much the type of lateral thinking I was suggesting, rather
than "we have always done it like this, it cant be changed". I've no
doubt there may be creases to be ironed out, but there might be other
completely different ideas as well.
--
Chris B (News)
Penny
2018-06-11 10:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 10:56:25 +0100, Chris B <***@salis.co.uk> scrawled in
the dust...
Post by Chris B
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
[1] Not even time off for Xmas?
What about timetabling vertically instead of horizontally? (Or
horizontally instead of vertically depending upon your point of view.)
Easier in secondary schools I suppose but I wouldn't rule it out for
primaries. So, instead of teaching all four teaching groups in year
eight -say- drama -say- once a week for thirty-nine teaching weeks, you
offer the drama module to the whole year group four times a year with
gaps between the modules. The student whose family have booked a month's
winter holiday in Barbados will jolly well have to negotiate a place to
do drama in the spring, summer or autumn offering and the drama teacher
can book their long holiday during any of the thirteen "off" weeks.
Rinse and repeat for all the other subjects on offer. You do away with
the requirement for daily attendance and replace it with the requirement
to complete "x" number of modules - which can't so easily be monitored
on a daily registration but can be monitored. Compared with monitoring a
frictionless NI/RI border it ought to be child's play.
One objection I can see is the Sports Master married to the Chemistry
Mistress (or married to the Chemistry Master - please yourselves)
complaining that they can never take time off together. Well, a- they
can do if the rolling timetable produces enough "sweet spots" and b- it
places them in no worse a situation than the mixed
schoolteacher/industrial relationship nowadays where the industrial
partner can never take time off in the school holidays because its a
peak time for their business.
Yes, I know the idea needs some work but is it totally useless? Applause
Nick
That is very much the type of lateral thinking I was suggesting, rather
than "we have always done it like this, it cant be changed". I've no
doubt there may be creases to be ironed out, but there might be other
completely different ideas as well.
The current school system wastes a lot of time. Many 2 year A level courses
could be taught in 3 months. But it isn't all about the academic education
(even if some ministers think it should be). Apart from the socialising,
civilising and cooperative elements it forms a necessary babysitting
service for working parents. Unless that part was recognised and provided
(free) as well, I'm not sure Nick's idea has legs.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Btms
2018-06-11 11:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris B
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
[1] Not even time off for Xmas?
What about timetabling vertically instead of horizontally? (Or
horizontally instead of vertically depending upon your point of view.)
Easier in secondary schools I suppose but I wouldn't rule it out for
primaries. So, instead of teaching all four teaching groups in year
eight -say- drama -say- once a week for thirty-nine teaching weeks, you
offer the drama module to the whole year group four times a year with
gaps between the modules. The student whose family have booked a month's
winter holiday in Barbados will jolly well have to negotiate a place to
do drama in the spring, summer or autumn offering and the drama teacher
can book their long holiday during any of the thirteen "off" weeks.
Rinse and repeat for all the other subjects on offer. You do away with
the requirement for daily attendance and replace it with the requirement
to complete "x" number of modules - which can't so easily be monitored
on a daily registration but can be monitored. Compared with monitoring a
frictionless NI/RI border it ought to be child's play.
One objection I can see is the Sports Master married to the Chemistry
Mistress (or married to the Chemistry Master - please yourselves)
complaining that they can never take time off together. Well, a- they
can do if the rolling timetable produces enough "sweet spots" and b- it
places them in no worse a situation than the mixed
schoolteacher/industrial relationship nowadays where the industrial
partner can never take time off in the school holidays because its a
peak time for their business.
Yes, I know the idea needs some work but is it totally useless? Applause
Nick
That is very much the type of lateral thinking I was suggesting, rather
than "we have always done it like this, it cant be changed". I've no
doubt there may be creases to be ironed out, but there might be other
completely different ideas as well.
Quite. The original was designed to fit the pattern of work and is now
well passed its sell by. Added to which we have regressed to a two working
parents family set up.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Nick Odell
2018-06-12 23:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris B
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
[1] Not even time off for Xmas?
What about timetabling vertically instead of horizontally? (Or
horizontally instead of vertically depending upon your point of view.)
Easier in secondary schools I suppose but I wouldn't rule it out for
primaries. So, instead of teaching all four teaching groups in year
eight -say- drama -say- once a week for thirty-nine teaching weeks,
you offer the drama module to the whole year group four times a year
with gaps between the modules. The student whose family have booked a
month's winter holiday in Barbados will jolly well have to negotiate a
place to do drama in the spring, summer or autumn offering and the
drama teacher can book their long holiday during any of the thirteen
"off" weeks. Rinse and repeat for all the other subjects on offer. You
do away with the requirement for daily attendance and replace it with
the requirement to complete "x" number of modules - which can't so
easily be monitored on a daily registration but can be monitored.
Compared with monitoring a frictionless NI/RI border it ought to be
child's play.
One objection I can see is the Sports Master married to the Chemistry
Mistress (or married to the Chemistry Master - please yourselves)
complaining that they can never take time off together. Well, a- they
can do if the rolling timetable produces enough "sweet spots" and b-
it places them in no worse a situation than the mixed
schoolteacher/industrial relationship nowadays where the industrial
partner can never take time off in the school holidays because its a
peak time for their business.
Yes, I know the idea needs some work but is it totally useless?
Nick
That is very much the type of lateral thinking I was suggesting, rather
than "we have always done it like this, it cant be changed".  I've no
doubt there may be creases to be ironed out, but there might be other
completely different ideas as well.
We should put Chris Grayling in charge of the project. I understand that
he knows quite a lot about timetabling.

Nick
krw
2018-06-13 10:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nick Odell
We should put Chris Grayling in charge of the project. I understand that
he knows quite a lot about timetabling.
Personally I blame the ORR. For CP5 they told NR to stop spending money
on train planning as it was waste.

So no train planners around when you need a new timetable.

How many new timetables needed as a result of Thameslink coming on line
in CP5?

Thameslink, Southern, Gatwick Express, EMT, GN, ECML, Southeastern
(because some idiot decided to send TL to Rainham at short notice), and
neighbouring operators - SW and Cross Country - and once you do that you
need to do a lot of others.

And in the same period you electrify Northern - which impacts West
Coast, TPE, ECML (again), Scotland.

How did anyone think you could manage with less train planning and
expect it to work? The ORR is to blame.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Nick Leverton
2018-06-13 13:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by krw
Post by Nick Odell
We should put Chris Grayling in charge of the project. I understand that
he knows quite a lot about timetabling.
Personally I blame the ORR. For CP5 they told NR to stop spending money
on train planning as it was waste.
So no train planners around when you need a new timetable.
How many new timetables needed as a result of Thameslink coming on line
in CP5?
Thameslink, Southern, Gatwick Express, EMT, GN, ECML, Southeastern
(because some idiot decided to send TL to Rainham at short notice), and
neighbouring operators - SW and Cross Country - and once you do that you
need to do a lot of others.
And in the same period you electrify Northern - which impacts West
Coast, TPE, ECML (again), Scotland.
How did anyone think you could manage with less train planning and
expect it to work? The ORR is to blame.
Actually, as with practically all other recent rail cockups, it is
very much the Department for F*dup Transport's chickens (proprieter one
C.Grayling at the moment) which are coming home to roost. The ORR did
what they were told by the DfT in identifying a place to save money.
It is the DfT which has been imposing many many last minute changes on
the train operators and on Network Rail, as they shilly-shally about
types of train and routes served.

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996
krw
2018-06-13 14:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nick Leverton
The ORR did
what they were told by the DfT in identifying a place to save money.
ORR are supposedly independent and told NR to save money.

They know the cost of nothing and the value of nothing either.

Reading their latest draft determination is impossible as it is entirely
management jargon junk. I cannot understand it.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Nick Leverton
2018-06-13 15:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by krw
Post by Nick Leverton
The ORR did
what they were told by the DfT in identifying a place to save money.
ORR are supposedly independent and told NR to save money.
They allowed for the usual timetable update cycles of working a year in
advance and having the changes fully scheduled within a certain time
of starting, sufficiently to print timetables, arrange staff rosters,
etc etc. They did not however allow for the DfT to impose major changes
requiring the complete re-planning of the entire network within a small
number of weeks. This would never have been achievable even before.
I believe you are wrong in ascribing that bit of the blame to the ORR.
Post by krw
They know the cost of nothing and the value of nothing either.
Very much an apposite criticism of almost every change imposed by
Government in every area over the last decade, of course.
Post by krw
Reading their latest draft determination is impossible as it is entirely
management jargon junk. I cannot understand it.
If I get time I may try to read it.

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996
Chris J Dixon
2018-06-13 14:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
krw wrote:

I have to say much of what I have read on the subject places the
blame firmly at the DfT. They appear to be so prescriptive on
routes, rolling stock and so forth that there is little scope for
manoeuvre,

However, this is something I came across elsewhere. This article,
posted on the Southern Electric Group’s Facebook page, but from a
seemingly unknown source, seems to give a deeper background than
others I’ve read:

<https://www.facebook.com/350543218317208/posts/1808289569209225/>

<quote>
The following has been published elsewhere on the web as an
explanation of the problems GTR are suffering (edited slightly
and believed to have been written by an insider):

Previously the large traincrew depot at Bedford covered a lot of
Sutton loop work. The idea of the future - that traincrew depots
are opened at the ends of service groups and drive only those
routes, mean that new traincrew depots at Luton and St Albans
opened in May.

Bedford reduced in size and Luton and St Albans were filled with
either volunteers or the less senior drivers forced to move. St
Albans, being the furthest away from Bedford, has fewer
volunteers than Luton, and more 'less senior'. Because of
previous delays in training and a backlog of trainees, St Albans
it seems, has a roster populated by a fair number of trainees
(who aren't yet qualified or productive). Since it opened in
May, St Albans is the exclusive depot for Sutton loop duties.

The duties can be cross-covered by other depots by spare or rest
day work drivers, but it evidently isn't enough at present.

Half of Luton depot should be doing Rainham duties but many
aren't trained on the route yet. Some Bedford drivers haven't
been trained on new London Bridge layout, which leads us to....

2. Route knowledge is a problem in that not many Brighton drivers
know the new layout at London Bridge High Level platforms and
their approaches. The same goes for Horsham drivers, but you can
add the Core as well that most don't sign, although some
(together with some Brighton drivers) were sent to quickly learn
St Pancras to Finsbury Park (and Kings Cross). They all need
route conducting for the bits they don't know with associated
knock on delays if trains get cancelled or delayed. This has been
evident at Finsbury Park.

3. The duties won't be the same each day for an individual
driver. For a start the duties are different lengths (between 6
hours and 9 hours 54 minutes), so are placed in a rota called a
'link' and are worked in rotation by drivers, with different rest
days each week. This makes an 'average week' of 35 hours, with
some being less and some being more.

Similarly to the Sutton loop mentioned above - on the GN, some
Cambridge to Kings Cross stopping services are now run by Welwyn
Garden City traincrew depot, which isn't actually in existence
yet, but are separate rotas (links) at Kings Cross and Hitchin
until the new depot buildings are constructed. There's the same
problem here in that any vacancies or trainees will be placed in
these links as the drivers with the most seniority will remain at
Kings Cross or Hitchin. Also, whereas all of Cambridge and
Peterborough are trained on 700s, there are many at Kings Cross
both in the 'remaining at Kings Cross link' and in 'Welwyn link',
and also the Welwyn link at Hitchin who require traction training
on them.

Adding complication every train booked to go via the Core is now
dealt with by Thameslink SDC (Service Delivery Centre) at Three
Bridges, with the trains booked to go to Kings Cross (that's
booked not diverted) and Moorgate still being dealt with by Great
Northern SDC at Kings Cross and the extra phone calls, liaising,
and added complications of left hand and right hand having to
know what each are doing.

It remains to be seen whether phase two of transferring all the
remaining GN services to come under Thameslink SDC, with the
closure of Kings Cross SDC in the coming weeks, will make things
better or worse.

Please note this was originally written on a Rail Forum and was
then sent to SEG from an appearance on the Southern Email Group
on 9 June so I cannot prove the veracity of the content.
</quote>

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk
Plant amazing Acers.
krw
2018-06-11 16:59:33 UTC
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Post by Nick Odell
One objection I can see is the Sports Master married to the Chemistry
Mistress (or married to the Chemistry Master - please yourselves)
We had a chemistry teacher married to French teacher if I remember
correctly.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Fenny
2018-06-11 17:58:43 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Nick Odell
One objection I can see is the Sports Master married to the Chemistry
Mistress (or married to the Chemistry Master - please yourselves)
We had a chemistry teacher married to French teacher if I remember
correctly.
Chemistry and Biology in our school. And two of the female French
teachers lived together.

Quite a few of the staff had spouses who taught in other local
schools.
--
Fenny
steveski
2018-06-11 18:02:49 UTC
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Post by Fenny
Post by krw
Post by Nick Odell
One objection I can see is the Sports Master married to the Chemistry
Mistress (or married to the Chemistry Master - please yourselves)
We had a chemistry teacher married to French teacher if I remember
correctly.
Chemistry and Biology in our school. And two of the female French
teachers lived together.
Quite a few of the staff had spouses who taught in other local schools.
French and geography for us.
--
Steveski
Chris McMillan
2018-06-09 17:47:25 UTC
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Post by Chris B
Post by Fenny
Post by Chris B
So isn't it time that the schools recognised this and rather than
stopping for 6 weeks in the summer (when prices for everything rocket)
they organise their lives round a 52 week teaching year, with students
and staff taking staggered holidays? (Just like the rest of the world of
work)
After all "wakes week/fortnight" was standard in many industries in the
50's and 60s, but are there any factories now left that shut down for
one or two weeks in the summer?
The rest of the world has moved on - why not the teaching profession.
Because the "teaching profession" is in the business of educating
children. Most people don't work continuously, but choose when they
want to take time off. If kids in classes take time off to suit their
parents, and there are no specific holiday periods, how can anyone
follow a teaching plan for a class.
Maybe it needs a whole new way of producing teaching plans. All I am
saying is that the education system as a whole seems to have been left
behind with regards to changes in the workplace. The current
holiday/term patterns are derived from a world that has not existed for
quite some time. I find the answer "It just cant be done" difficult to
accept.
Post by Fenny
When would scouts, guides and other organisations pick when to have
their camps? The summer is usually marginally better weather than
other times of the year. Nobody is going to take a bunch of teenagers
camping for 2 weeks in November.
However much people don't like the way that travel agents jack up the
prices when the schools are off, this is all to do with supply and
demand. Changing the demand has to be organised in a sensible way.
You could have every county having different fortnights off, but then
any teacher who works in a different county from their home will end
up not being able to go on holiday with their children.
I am not suggesting synchronised holidays by region, county or anything
else, but a method of teaching that can cater for a certain percentage
of staff/pupils being away at any given time. Obviously there would
have to a certain number of "fixtures" such as exams but again in many
areas of non academic work there are certain times (generally short)
which are "peak effort" and holidays are not allowed.
Post by Fenny
If anyone can *actually* produce a sensible way to stagger school
holidays so that people can have time off in the decent weather,
they're on to a winner, but they still have to get it agreed.
Why do you think they would struggle to get such a system agreed. To me
if such a system can be devised it would seem such a no brainier that
there would be universal acceptance.
Have there been any such systems tried or even debated?
There are schools with a six term year, one of my friends works in a
children’s home/school where this works, with a regular length term, two
weeks for each break (four for summer), these young people with complex
needs cope better, forget less, and for those livi g st home it’s easier
for the parents to organise lives. It works out that one week of every
half term and some of each holiday coincides in mainstream.

Sincerely Chris
Fenny
2018-06-09 19:53:29 UTC
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On Sat, 09 Jun 2018 17:47:25 GMT, Chris McMillan
Post by Chris McMillan
There are schools with a six term year, one of my friends works in a
children’s home/school where this works, with a regular length term, two
weeks for each break (four for summer), these young people with complex
needs cope better, forget less, and for those livi g st home it’s easier
for the parents to organise lives. It works out that one week of every
half term and some of each holiday coincides in mainstream.
There's no real reason not to move to a 5 or 6 term year, but it has
to be consistent if it's going to be widespread.
--
Fenny
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