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Ask EU: Cameras
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Chris J Dixon
2018-07-13 07:42:15 UTC
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Now that my Panasonic DMC-FZ18 is ten years old I was wondering
if it was time for replacement, but a quick look at the market
tells me that my desires may well not be met.

This camera is a bridge, with 18x optical zoom, but weighs only
360 g with dimensions of 115 x 75 x 105.

I guess my key requirements are a good optical zoom and a
viewfinder. This tends to rule out compacts, which I might
otherwise be willing to consider.

It seems that bridge cameras nowadays are mostly significantly
bigger and heavier than mine, which is already often left behind
because I don't want to carry it.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk
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krw
2018-07-13 08:46:27 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
I guess my key requirements are a good optical zoom and a
viewfinder.
The difficulty is viewfinder. My compact does not have one - but with
digital the screen is pretty good most of the time and you can always
trim later with ease.

I would go for a superzoom compact from your preferred manufacturer and
see if you can work without a viewfinder - do you ever take photos on a
phone?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Chris J Dixon
2018-07-13 09:30:08 UTC
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Post by krw
The difficulty is viewfinder. My compact does not have one - but with
digital the screen is pretty good most of the time and you can always
trim later with ease.
I would go for a superzoom compact from your preferred manufacturer and
see if you can work without a viewfinder - do you ever take photos on a
phone?
I only very occasionally use my phone, and outdoors really
dislike the level of visibility on the screen. I also hate using
it at arm's length. I guess I consider it a sort of visual
note-taker rather than a camera.

I'm not convinced that at full zoom I would just be able to point
in the general direction and rely on cropping later.

Chris
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Chris McMillan
2018-07-13 15:40:45 UTC
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Post by krw
Post by Chris J Dixon
I guess my key requirements are a good optical zoom and a
viewfinder.
The difficulty is viewfinder. My compact does not have one - but with
digital the screen is pretty good most of the time and you can always
trim later with ease.
I would go for a superzoom compact from your preferred manufacturer and
see if you can work without a viewfinder - do you ever take photos on a
phone?
I struggled with the thought of no viewfinder with my current digital but I
can’t grip a bridge camera. If compacts ever do viewfinder (which they
won’t) it would be my first choice every time.

Sincerely Chris
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-13 09:29:10 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Now that my Panasonic DMC-FZ18 is ten years old I was wondering
if it was time for replacement, but a quick look at the market
tells me that my desires may well not be met.
This camera is a bridge, with 18x optical zoom, but weighs only
360 g with dimensions of 115 x 75 x 105.
What's a bridge, in this context?
Post by Chris J Dixon
I guess my key requirements are a good optical zoom and a
viewfinder. This tends to rule out compacts, which I might
otherwise be willing to consider.
I suspect the main problem, as krw has said, is the desire for a
viewfinder. What's your objection to no viewfinder? I can think of
several: in many (all?) cases electronic "viewfinders" are lower
resolution than the sensor, so you can't really check with them; and
they're hard to use in sunlight (impossible unless they're a rubber-cup
type). And they require power (though so does the zoom - I don't think
I've _ever_ seen a digital camera with a zoom that can be operated
_without_ the power on). Probably others too.
Post by Chris J Dixon
It seems that bridge cameras nowadays are mostly significantly
bigger and heavier than mine, which is already often left behind
because I don't want to carry it.
Chris
My camera is also rarely taken out because of its weight and size. It's
a 3.2 megapixel (!), but with a good lens (not a _huge_ zoom range) - an
old Fuji. I don't think I've seen less than 10-14 Mpixels for many
years; I rarely even use the 3 - I usually have it set to 1; I find/feel
the lens makes the difference.

Other than _wondering_, is there anything about your present camera that
is making you think it's not up to what you want nowadays?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Never make the same mistake twice...there are so many new ones to make!
John Ashby
2018-07-13 09:58:02 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Chris J Dixon
Now that my Panasonic DMC-FZ18 is ten years old I was wondering
if it was time for replacement, but a quick look at the market
tells me that my desires may well not be met.
This camera is a bridge, with 18x optical zoom, but weighs only
360 g with dimensions of 115 x 75 x 105.
What's a bridge, in this context?
A camera that is intermediate between a compact (think instamatic) and a
(D)SLR. A smallish body and a non-interchangeable zoom lens (but with a
much wider aperture than the zoom on a compact).

john
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-13 10:14:24 UTC
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Post by John Ashby
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Chris J Dixon
Now that my Panasonic DMC-FZ18 is ten years old I was wondering
if it was time for replacement, but a quick look at the market
tells me that my desires may well not be met.
This camera is a bridge, with 18x optical zoom, but weighs only
360 g with dimensions of 115 x 75 x 105.
What's a bridge, in this context?
A camera that is intermediate between a compact (think instamatic) and
a (D)SLR. A smallish body and a non-interchangeable zoom lens (but with
a much wider aperture than the zoom on a compact).
john
Thanks. I thought it might be that. So the line between a compact and a
bridge is somewhat fuzzy; I suppose if it's rectangular it's a compact
and if it looks like a lens with bits it's a bridge, bit there will be
ones between.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni Vidi Visa [I came, I saw, I did a little shopping] - Mik from S+AS Limited
(***@saslimited.demon.co.uk), 1998
Chris J Dixon
2018-07-13 10:46:28 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I suspect the main problem, as krw has said, is the desire for a
viewfinder.
Yes
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What's your objection to no viewfinder? I can think of
several: in many (all?) cases electronic "viewfinders" are lower
resolution than the sensor, so you can't really check with them; and
they're hard to use in sunlight (impossible unless they're a rubber-cup
type)
That's not my experience - are you claiming that a screen in
sunlight is better than an eyepiece?
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
. And they require power (though so does the zoom - I don't think
I've _ever_ seen a digital camera with a zoom that can be operated
_without_ the power on). Probably others too.
Not an issue.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Other than _wondering_, is there anything about your present camera that
is making you think it's not up to what you want nowadays?
Not particularly. A selector switch is a bit temperamental, but
not a big issue. I was sort of thinking that perhaps things had
moved on technically in 10 years, OTOH better resolution means
bigger files.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk
Plant amazing Acers.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-13 11:40:19 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I suspect the main problem, as krw has said, is the desire for a
viewfinder.
Yes
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What's your objection to no viewfinder? I can think of
several: in many (all?) cases electronic "viewfinders" are lower
resolution than the sensor, so you can't really check with them; and
they're hard to use in sunlight (impossible unless they're a rubber-cup
type)
That's not my experience - are you claiming that a screen in
sunlight is better than an eyepiece?
No. My present (old) camera has two electronic viewfinders - one in the
normal place on the back of the camera, and one small one with a rubber
cup to view it with/through; I can switch whichever one it uses. The one
with the cup is the only one usable in sunlight, of course, as they are
both backlit using camera power. Against backlit-using-camera-power
screens, optical finders are usually better in sunlight. They're
_always_ (AFAIK) better for focusing, as the electronic type never has
the same resolution as the sensor.

There is _some_ advantage to optical by electronic in some respects:
there's no parallax, and you can also be aware of any shortcomings of
the electronic capture mechanism (e. g. contrast, flare, etcetera).

I did use at work _many_ years ago (in the floppy disc era!) a Sony that
had an electronic screen, but backlit optionally by ambient light: it
had a diffuser bar across the top, which redirected sunlight as
backlight. I thought that an excellent idea, and have never understood
why it disappeared - not just for cameras, but for e. g. 'phones and
laptops too. But it has (disappeared that is). [That one might even have
had the same resolution as the sensor, given that that sensor produced
images you could put several of on a floppy.]
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
. And they require power (though so does the zoom - I don't think
I've _ever_ seen a digital camera with a zoom that can be operated
_without_ the power on). Probably others too.
Not an issue.
No, batteries have improved a lot. Though it still irritates me - I'd
like a mechanical zoom control. (Not least so I could leave it where I
want it!)
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Other than _wondering_, is there anything about your present camera that
is making you think it's not up to what you want nowadays?
Not particularly. A selector switch is a bit temperamental, but
not a big issue. I was sort of thinking that perhaps things had
moved on technically in 10 years, OTOH better resolution means
bigger files.
Chris
As well as resolution (a decidedly mixed blessing as we both agree),
there have been improvements in what might be seen as gimmicks - face
recognition, and so on. While old photographers like us might not give
much weight to these, I can see their usefulness (e. g. when combined
with autofocus - as long as they can be turned off!).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anyone can do any amount of work provided it isn't the work he is supposed to
be doing at the moment. -Robert Benchley, humorist, drama critic, and actor
(1889-1945)
krw
2018-07-13 12:41:11 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
That's not my experience - are you claiming that a screen in
sunlight is better than an eyepiece?
I would not claim that. I would say that the screens on the back of
cameras are not and I have adjusted to using it on the compact (as there
is no viewfinder). I think my attachment to viewfinders is very much
habit when I see everyone else using their screens.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Sid Nuncius
2018-07-13 17:18:24 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What's a bridge, in this context?
A bridge is forty quid, love. Specials is extra.[1]


[1] Just for old time's sake.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
the Omrud
2018-07-13 16:03:45 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Now that my Panasonic DMC-FZ18 is ten years old I was wondering
if it was time for replacement, but a quick look at the market
tells me that my desires may well not be met.
This camera is a bridge, with 18x optical zoom, but weighs only
360 g with dimensions of 115 x 75 x 105.
I guess my key requirements are a good optical zoom and a
viewfinder. This tends to rule out compacts, which I might
otherwise be willing to consider.
It seems that bridge cameras nowadays are mostly significantly
bigger and heavier than mine, which is already often left behind
because I don't want to carry it.
I had similar feelings and eventually bought a compact with an
electronic viewfinder. This looks like a viewfinder but is actually a
small screen which relays whatever the camera can see. It's wonderful,
although it does make the camera a little larger than a basic compact.

This is what I bought (mostly because I've had Canons for decades)

https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/canon-g5-x
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-PowerShot-G5-Compact-System/dp/B016MMF00E?

It's important to see one in the flesh to get the size. It's nowhere
near as large as an SLR, but it is bigger than a standard compact. I
have an SLR but I also wanted a camera which I didn't have to hang
around my neck when not using it - the G5X can fit in a coat pocket (but
not trousers) and is easily carried in a belt pouch.

It also has an articulated screen on the back which means you can hold
it over your head or down on the ground and still see what is in the frame.
--
David
Mike
2018-07-13 16:36:12 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
Post by Chris J Dixon
Now that my Panasonic DMC-FZ18 is ten years old I was wondering
if it was time for replacement, but a quick look at the market
tells me that my desires may well not be met.
This camera is a bridge, with 18x optical zoom, but weighs only
360 g with dimensions of 115 x 75 x 105.
I guess my key requirements are a good optical zoom and a
viewfinder. This tends to rule out compacts, which I might
otherwise be willing to consider.
It seems that bridge cameras nowadays are mostly significantly
bigger and heavier than mine, which is already often left behind
because I don't want to carry it.
I had similar feelings and eventually bought a compact with an
electronic viewfinder. This looks like a viewfinder but is actually a
small screen which relays whatever the camera can see. It's wonderful,
although it does make the camera a little larger than a basic compact.
This is what I bought (mostly because I've had Canons for decades)
https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/canon-g5-x
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-PowerShot-G5-Compact-System/dp/B016MMF00E?
It's important to see one in the flesh to get the size. It's nowhere
near as large as an SLR, but it is bigger than a standard compact. I
have an SLR but I also wanted a camera which I didn't have to hang
around my neck when not using it - the G5X can fit in a coat pocket (but
not trousers) and is easily carried in a belt pouch.
It also has an articulated screen on the back which means you can hold
it over your head or down on the ground and still see what is in the frame.
Inarticulate screens are useless, they never explain what they see.;-)))
--
Toodle Pip
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-13 17:40:36 UTC
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[]
Post by Mike
Post by the Omrud
It also has an articulated screen on the back which means you can hold
it over your head or down on the ground and still see what is in the frame.
That sounds like an excellent idea, and overcomes _one_ of the
shortcomings of fixed ones (it may in certain circumstances overcome the
sunlight-swamping aspect too). That particular aspect is also an
advantage over optical ones (I've _never_ seen an articulated one of
those).
Post by Mike
Inarticulate screens are useless, they never explain what they see.;-)))
(-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22
Chris J Dixon
2018-07-14 07:05:33 UTC
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Post by the Omrud
I had similar feelings and eventually bought a compact with an
electronic viewfinder. This looks like a viewfinder but is actually a
small screen which relays whatever the camera can see. It's wonderful,
although it does make the camera a little larger than a basic compact.
I'm quite happy with an electronic viewfinder.
Post by the Omrud
This is what I bought (mostly because I've had Canons for decades)
https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/canon-g5-x
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-PowerShot-G5-Compact-System/dp/B016MMF00E?
Thanks for the interesting suggestion, but it sadly only has 4x
optical zoom.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk
Plant amazing Acers.
Chris B
2018-07-15 09:05:59 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by the Omrud
I had similar feelings and eventually bought a compact with an
electronic viewfinder. This looks like a viewfinder but is actually a
small screen which relays whatever the camera can see. It's wonderful,
although it does make the camera a little larger than a basic compact.
I'm quite happy with an electronic viewfinder.
Post by the Omrud
This is what I bought (mostly because I've had Canons for decades)
https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/canon-g5-x
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-PowerShot-G5-Compact-System/dp/B016MMF00E?
Thanks for the interesting suggestion, but it sadly only has 4x
optical zoom.
Chris
I have looked long and hard at this range for light weight/compact/large
zoom/with a viewfinder but have not actually bit the bullet and got one
so I cant make any recommendation.

https://www.johnlewis.com/panasonic-lumix-dmc-tz70-digital-camera-hd-1080p-12-1mp-30x-optical-zoom-nfc-wi-fi-manual-control-ring-evf-3-inch-lcd-screen/p1901695
--
Chris B (News)
Chris J Dixon
2018-07-15 09:32:01 UTC
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Post by Chris B
I have looked long and hard at this range for light weight/compact/large
zoom/with a viewfinder but have not actually bit the bullet and got one
so I cant make any recommendation.
https://www.johnlewis.com/panasonic-lumix-dmc-tz70-digital-camera-hd-1080p-12-1mp-30x-optical-zoom-nfc-wi-fi-manual-control-ring-evf-3-inch-lcd-screen/p1901695
Thanks, that certainly looks well worth closer investigation.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk
Plant amazing Acers.
BrritSki
2018-07-15 09:57:09 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Chris B
I have looked long and hard at this range for light weight/compact/large
zoom/with a viewfinder but have not actually bit the bullet and got one
so I cant make any recommendation.
https://www.johnlewis.com/panasonic-lumix-dmc-tz70-digital-camera-hd-1080p-12-1mp-30x-optical-zoom-nfc-wi-fi-manual-control-ring-evf-3-inch-lcd-screen/p1901695
Thanks, that certainly looks well worth closer investigation.
If this feature does what I think it does, it would certainly be
interesting - please report back ! :

Live view finder
Perfect for framing the image when light conditions make it difficult to
use the LED screen, the eye sensor automatically detects your viewing
preference and switches image display to the Live View Finder.
BrritSki
2018-07-15 09:45:54 UTC
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Post by Chris B
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by the Omrud
I had similar feelings and eventually bought a compact with an
electronic viewfinder.  This looks like a viewfinder but is actually a
small screen which relays whatever the camera can see.  It's wonderful,
although it does make the camera a little larger than a basic compact.
I'm quite happy with an electronic viewfinder.
Post by the Omrud
This is what I bought (mostly because I've had Canons for decades)
https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/canon-g5-x
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-PowerShot-G5-Compact-System/dp/B016MMF00E?
Thanks for the interesting suggestion, but it sadly only has 4x
optical zoom.
Chris
I have looked long and hard at this range for light weight/compact/large
zoom/with a viewfinder but have not actually bit the bullet and got one
so I cant make any recommendation.
https://www.johnlewis.com/panasonic-lumix-dmc-tz70-digital-camera-hd-1080p-12-1mp-30x-optical-zoom-nfc-wi-fi-manual-control-ring-evf-3-inch-lcd-screen/p1901695
This looks like a good deal if you're on Amazon Prime:
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00WSIAE4Y?ref_=pe_1725760_66985271_pmwn_15.7_dealasins_tre1_pd1_img1>

Good optical zoom and spec., but it doesn't have a viewfinder which
would be a killer for me...

This one also has a good spec. and reviews AND a viewfinder and is 10g
lighter than your own camera, but only 6X optical zoom which may not be
enough for you:
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-PowerShot-14-7MP-Digital-Camera/dp/B001FWYT9K/ref=sr_1_13?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1531647368&sr=1-13&keywords=compact+camera+with+viewfinder>

Good luck. I might even get one myself !
Penny
2018-07-15 12:00:04 UTC
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On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 10:05:59 +0100, Chris B <***@salis.co.uk> scrawled in
the dust...
Post by Chris B
I have looked long and hard at this range for light weight/compact/large
zoom/with a viewfinder but have not actually bit the bullet and got one
so I cant make any recommendation.
https://www.johnlewis.com/panasonic-lumix-dmc-tz70-digital-camera-hd-1080p-12-1mp-30x-optical-zoom-nfc-wi-fi-manual-control-ring-evf-3-inch-lcd-screen/p1901695
I have been impressed by results from the Lumix TZ series and am currently
on my third (I think I've now learnt how NOT to suck dirt onto the sensor).
The last two were bought second hand on ebay, most recent was £35. But I've
not seen one with a view finder before and so sensibly placed so you can
avoid getting a noseprint on the screen.

The last compact I had with a viewfinder was a Sony and, to my surprise, I
very rarely used it. This summer there have been several times when I've
wanted one because of bright sunlight but I just take/review/discard and
take again if necessary.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Clive Arthur
2018-07-14 16:20:44 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Now that my Panasonic DMC-FZ18 is ten years old I was wondering
if it was time for replacement, but a quick look at the market
tells me that my desires may well not be met.
This camera is a bridge, with 18x optical zoom, but weighs only
360 g with dimensions of 115 x 75 x 105.
I guess my key requirements are a good optical zoom and a
viewfinder. This tends to rule out compacts, which I might
otherwise be willing to consider.
It seems that bridge cameras nowadays are mostly significantly
bigger and heavier than mine, which is already often left behind
because I don't want to carry it.
Chris
I was thinking that maybe an add-on device to cover the screen and with
a lens to allow it to be used as a viewfinder wouldn't be too hard to
design! I'm in the money!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SevenOak-Viewfinder-Magnifier-Olympus-LF613/dp/B00PFG6IC8

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-Viewfinder-Magnifier-Hood-Extender-Universal-for-3-Screen-Nikon-Canon-SONY/232522525225?hash=item36236c2a29:g:dHYAAOSwekhZ4PyQ

Damn.

Cheers
--
Clive
Nick Odell
2018-07-15 14:03:51 UTC
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Now that my Panasonic DMC-FZ18 is ten years old I was wondering
if it was time for replacement, but a quick look at the market
tells me that my desires may well not be met.
This camera is a bridge, with 18x optical zoom, but weighs only
360 g with dimensions of 115 x 75 x 105.
I guess my key requirements are a good optical zoom and a
viewfinder. This tends to rule out compacts, which I might
otherwise be willing to consider.
It seems that bridge cameras nowadays are mostly significantly
bigger and heavier than mine, which is already often left behind
because I don't want to carry it.
I absolutely agree about viewfinders: Liliana has a Sony DSC H300 which
produces some really good pictures but it has no viewfinder and she has
to take a pair of reading glasses in the camera case to view the screen.
If you'd consider that compromise, do take a look.

I can squint through a viewfinder in my distance glasses but I can't see
more than a blur on a screen without reading glasses. Changing glasses
is too much faff for me so a viewfinder it has to be.

I assume you don't want to try using wet film again My Canon half-frame
outperforms my 10Mp Fujifilm Bridge camera in optical quality and whilst
I'd agree that the 3.5Kg of my Bronica outfit with motordrive is
probably not going to fit into even one of Joe Grundy's poacher's
pockets, there is other stuff in between - and the Bronica does take
rather nice snaps.

I'm sure you know that it's not just megapixels but the size of the
sensor and the optical quality of the lens that matter. My favourite
digital is a fifteen-year-old Minolta Dimage G500 compact and it's a
favourite because I can slip it into a pocket and take it anywhere. Only
5Mp - but they are good Mp produced with a generously-sized sensor and
it has an excellent lens to take advantage of it. You can enlarge up to
about 13"x17" before you notice pixel degradation. It also has an
optical viewfinder - in a compact - but only 3x optical zoom, I'm afraid.

Nick

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