Discussion:
Police Memorial
(too old to reply)
Mike Ruddock
2021-07-29 13:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to those who tried to grapple with my "immer" problem. It seems
we are no further forward.

Meanwhile . . . Am I the only one to be staggered about the cost of the
newly unveiled (but I doubt it actually ever had a veil) memorial to the
police? It was said to have cost £4.5 million.

To put it in context: the Angel of the North cost less than a million.
Admittedly this was put up about 35 years ago so there's inflation to
consider but the Angel is far taller than the "portal" in Staffordshire
and has a far greater wind resistance. It was built to withstand winds
of 100 mph. It is located alongside the A1, a rather busy road.

The "portal" is far smaller and has a lot of holes in it and so has less
wind resistance. It is surrounded by a paved and grassed area in a quiet
park in the National Arboretum.

How can anyone defend the cost of this memorial? Where has all that
money gone? I am not against the memorial(my Dad was a copper,though
fortunately he did not die while on duty.)

Has some (hopefully a lot) of the money gone to the police benevolent
fund? Nobody said so.

Mike Ruddock
Mike McMillan
2021-07-29 15:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ruddock
Thanks to those who tried to grapple with my "immer" problem. It seems
we are no further forward.
Meanwhile . . . Am I the only one to be staggered about the cost of the
newly unveiled (but I doubt it actually ever had a veil) memorial to the
police? It was said to have cost £4.5 million.
To put it in context: the Angel of the North cost less than a million.
Admittedly this was put up about 35 years ago so there's inflation to
consider but the Angel is far taller than the "portal" in Staffordshire
and has a far greater wind resistance. It was built to withstand winds
of 100 mph. It is located alongside the A1, a rather busy road.
The "portal" is far smaller and has a lot of holes in it and so has less
wind resistance. It is surrounded by a paved and grassed area in a quiet
park in the National Arboretum.
How can anyone defend the cost of this memorial? Where has all that
money gone? I am not against the memorial(my Dad was a copper,though
fortunately he did not die while on duty.)
Has some (hopefully a lot) of the money gone to the police benevolent
fund? Nobody said so.
Mike Ruddock
I suspect that only a few coppers (see what I did there?) came via the PBF
and the rest was wrestled out of the paws of the NHS non-funding pot.:-(((
As to what I hear, the memorial depicts a door slightly ajar; danger is
only one interpretation that might be put on that. I suspect fingers in the
pie may have been involved.
--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan
krw
2021-07-29 15:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ruddock
To put it in context: the Angel of the North cost less than a million.
Admittedly this was put up about 35 years ago
Has it really been that long?

The police memorial was probably a Network Rail jobbie - they have no
concept of real costs either.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Peter
2021-07-29 16:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ruddock
Thanks to those who tried to grapple with my "immer" problem. It seems
we are no further forward.
Meanwhile . . .  Am I the only one to be staggered about the cost of the
newly unveiled (but I doubt it actually ever had a veil) memorial to the
police? It was said to have cost £4.5 million.
To put it in context: the Angel of the North cost less than a million.
Admittedly this was put up about 35 years ago so there's inflation to
consider but the Angel is far taller than the "portal" in Staffordshire
and has a far greater wind resistance. It was built to withstand winds
of 100 mph. It is located alongside the A1, a rather busy road.
The "portal" is far smaller and has a lot of holes in it and so has less
wind resistance. It is surrounded by a paved and grassed area in a quiet
park in the National Arboretum.
How can anyone defend the cost of this memorial? Where has all that
money gone? I am not against the memorial(my Dad was a copper,though
fortunately he did not die while on duty.)
Has some (hopefully a lot) of the money gone to the police benevolent
fund? Nobody said so.
Mike Ruddock
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well. Anyone would
think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
John Ashby
2021-07-29 19:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ruddock
Thanks to those who tried to grapple with my "immer" problem. It seems
we are no further forward.
Meanwhile . . .  Am I the only one to be staggered about the cost of
the newly unveiled (but I doubt it actually ever had a veil) memorial
to the police? It was said to have cost £4.5 million.
To put it in context: the Angel of the North cost less than a million.
Admittedly this was put up about 35 years ago so there's inflation to
consider but the Angel is far taller than the "portal" in
Staffordshire and has a far greater wind resistance. It was built to
withstand winds of 100 mph. It is located alongside the A1, a rather
busy road.
The "portal" is far smaller and has a lot of holes in it and so has
less wind resistance. It is surrounded by a paved and grassed area in
a quiet park in the National Arboretum.
How can anyone defend the cost of this memorial? Where has all that
money gone? I am not against the memorial(my Dad was a copper,though
fortunately he did not die while on duty.)
Has some (hopefully a lot) of the money gone to the police benevolent
fund? Nobody said so.
Mike Ruddock
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone would
think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Let's hope it won't get blasted. And let's not forget the gypsies,
homosexuals and socialists they also killed.

john
Sid Nuncius
2021-07-30 05:30:21 UTC
Permalink
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone would
think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite. Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
--
Sid
(Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Vicky Ayech
2021-07-30 08:56:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:30:21 +0100, Sid Nuncius
Post by Sid Nuncius
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone would
think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite. Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
SWERVE
I've been watching the Hemingway programmes on BBC as Islands in the
Stream is one of my top favourite books and I liked him as an author,
but have rather gone off the man after seeing some of his hunting of
big animals and playing soldier during WW2.

I had not read anything by his third wife though and got The Face of
War, a later edition with the 6 Days War section added and her views
on the Palestinian situation both of which I turned to first as I Was
There and I thought her report excellent. I've now begun from the
introductions and she sets out her views, which are also clear-sighted
and very unlike how I see today's media operating.

I really recommend the book and think the sections on the Middle East
should be required reading for anyone talking about the area.
Peter
2021-07-30 15:00:57 UTC
Permalink
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone would
think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about them
than all the others? I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't treat the
Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
John Ashby
2021-07-30 18:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone would
think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about them
than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't treat the
Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews with
the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic to and
active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many others who fit
the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a situation where
precision and nuance are necessary.

Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make umratic
posts here as always.

john
Sid Nuncius
2021-07-31 05:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about them
than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't treat
the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews with
the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic to and
active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many others who fit
the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a situation where
precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make umratic
posts here as always.
Thank you John. Please accept this <languid wave>.

I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government did
not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians. He would still
dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though. I offer no further
comment.
--
Sid
(Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Vicky Ayech
2021-07-31 08:37:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 06:27:04 +0100, Sid Nuncius
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about them
than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't treat
the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews with
the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic to and
active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many others who fit
the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a situation where
precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make umratic
posts here as always.
Thank you John. Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government did
not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians. He would still
dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though. I offer no further
comment.
MTAAW.
Jenny M Benson
2021-07-31 08:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sid Nuncius
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government did
not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.
Presumably you are in no way responsible for the Israeli government, as
some of us perhaps are for the current British one.

(Writing that has just made me query something: as the Union is
entitled the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is it
correct to refer to "British something-or-other" when the something-or
other relates to the entirety, or if not what is the correct adjective?)
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
Penny
2021-07-31 13:35:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 09:47:07 +0100, Jenny M Benson <***@hotmail.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Sid Nuncius
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government did
not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.
Presumably you are in no way responsible for the Israeli government, as
some of us perhaps are for the current British one.
(Writing that has just made me query something: as the Union is
entitled the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is it
correct to refer to "British something-or-other" when the something-or
It's more complicated than that*.
NornIrn is part of the UK but not British.
Westminster/Central/UK Government has devolved some aspects of government
to the other nations - I'm not sure these devolved powers are the same in
each place.
Post by Jenny M Benson
other relates to the entirety, or if not what is the correct adjective?)
UK Government.

* especially when the Prime Liar hands out pandemic instructions amid many
references to 'the UK'**, forgetting that Health, and to some degree police
powers, are devolved.

**It's time England had its own Statesman/Governor - though I suspect a lot
of England residents would still ignore the borders, especially when on
holiday.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Jenny M Benson
2021-07-31 14:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Sid Nuncius
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government did
not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.
Presumably you are in no way responsible for the Israeli government, as
some of us perhaps are for the current British one.
(Writing that has just made me query something: as the Union is
entitled the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is it
correct to refer to "British something-or-other" when the something-or
It's more complicated than that*.
NornIrn is part of the UK but not British.
Westminster/Central/UK Government has devolved some aspects of government
to the other nations - I'm not sure these devolved powers are the same in
each place.
Post by Jenny M Benson
other relates to the entirety, or if not what is the correct adjective?)
UK Government.
I wasn't thinking specifically of Government, but in the case of
anything that is relative to the entire UK of GB & MI.
Post by Penny
* especially when the Prime Liar hands out pandemic instructions amid many
references to 'the UK'**, forgetting that Health, and to some degree police
powers, are devolved.
**It's time England had its own Statesman/Governor - though I suspect a lot
of England residents would still ignore the borders, especially when on
holiday.
A propos of that, heard about this incident a couple of days ago. There
is a Bridal Gown shop near to where my sis lives. A prospective bride
turned up with small entourage which included her mother. PB was
wearing a mask but her mother wasn't, so was asked to do so by the
owner. "Oh, I live in Manchester. I don't need to wear a mask." she
said. Owner pointed out that she was in Wales and *did* need to.
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
Joe Kerr
2021-07-31 17:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Penny
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 09:47:07 +0100, Jenny M Benson
(Writing that has just made me query something:  as the Union is
entitled the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is it
correct to refer to "British something-or-other" when the something-or
It's more complicated than that*.
NornIrn is part of the UK but not British.
Westminster/Central/UK Government has devolved some aspects of government
to the other nations - I'm not sure these devolved powers are the same in
each place.
other relates to the entirety, or if not what is the correct adjective?)
UK Government.
I wasn't thinking specifically of Government, but in the case of
anything that is relative to the entire UK of GB & MI.
Post by Penny
When it comes to sport the UK team is known as Team GB, if that is of
any help. More generally, particularly in foreign parts, I think English
is used, but that quite understandably tends to upset some members of
the union.
--
Ric
Min
2021-07-31 17:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Penny
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 09:47:07 +0100, Jenny M Benson
(Writing that has just made me query something: as the Union is
entitled the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is it
correct to refer to "British something-or-other" when the something-or
It's more complicated than that*.
NornIrn is part of the UK but not British.
Westminster/Central/UK Government has devolved some aspects of government
to the other nations - I'm not sure these devolved powers are the same in
each place.
other relates to the entirety, or if not what is the correct adjective?)
UK Government.
I wasn't thinking specifically of Government, but in the case of
anything that is relative to the entire UK of GB & MI.
Post by Penny
When it comes to sport the UK team is known as Team GB, if that is of
any help. More generally, particularly in foreign parts, I think English
is used, but that quite understandably tends to upset some members of
the union.
--
Ric
In Olympic sport, yes - but it is no means widespread - nor even 100% accepted
in Baron Coubertin's playground (Was it London or Rio they worked out that
*Yorkshire* had more medals than some countries?!) Most sports we are
treated as separate countries - then you have interesting stuff like the "Ireland"
6 Nations team actually being NI and Eire..
--
Min
Olympics freak of this parish...who is now in favour of 'Mixed' events after
a few 'Bateman' moments....
Peter
2021-07-31 13:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about them
than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't treat
the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews with
the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic to and
active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many others who fit
the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a situation where
precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government did
not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would still
dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer no further
comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.

You will know that the Nazis also terrorised faggots, or Fagotts if you
prefer. Are they less deserving than jews?
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
John Ashby
2021-07-31 13:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about them
than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't treat
the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic to
and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many others who
fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a situation where
precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government
did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would still
dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer no further
comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
You will know that the Nazis also terrorised faggots, or Fagotts if you
prefer.  Are they less deserving than jews?
All woodwind matter.

john
John Ashby
2021-07-31 13:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about
them than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't
treat the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic to
and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many others
who fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a situation
where precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government
did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would still
dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer no
further comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
You will know that the Nazis also terrorised faggots, or Fagotts if
you prefer.  Are they less deserving than jews?
All woodwind matter.
john
Flippancy aside, Peter, a serious question: Do you need to consider
either a rebalancing of any medications you may be on or a rest from
social media. I ask because as I've said to you in the past there is a
pattern of behaviour where normal and valuable interactions with this
group tip over into troll territory. In others where I've witnessed such
behaviour it haas been a sign of deteriorating mental health or stress,
and I wonder if the same might be true for you. If it is, addressing the
problem sooner rather than later would be a good thing. If it isn't then
I don't like to think what darkness *does* drive comments such as the above.

john
Peter
2021-07-31 15:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about
them than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they
didn't treat the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic
to and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many
others who fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a
situation where precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government
did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would
still dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer no
further comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
You will know that the Nazis also terrorised faggots, or Fagotts if
you prefer.  Are they less deserving than jews?
All woodwind matter.
john
Flippancy aside, Peter, a serious question: Do you need to consider
either a rebalancing of any medications you may be on or a rest from
social media. I ask because as I've said to you in the past there is a
pattern of behaviour where normal and valuable interactions with this
group tip over into troll territory. In others where I've witnessed such
behaviour it haas been a sign of deteriorating mental health or stress,
and I wonder if the same might be true for you. If it is, addressing the
problem sooner rather than later would be a good thing. If it isn't then
I don't like to think what darkness *does* drive comments such as the above.
The comment above is asking - was the way Nazis treated the jews any
worse than the way they treated homosexuals? I think not, but no doubt
other views are possible.
Post by John Ashby
john
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
John Ashby
2021-07-31 16:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Snippage has occurred.
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
You will know that the Nazis also terrorised faggots, or Fagotts if
you prefer.  Are they less deserving than jews?
I don't like to think what darkness *does* drive
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
comments such as the above.
The comment above is asking - was the way Nazis treated the jews any
worse than the way they treated homosexuals?  I think not, but no doubt
other views are possible.
Expressed that way it is a reasonable question, though one might
question whether umra is an appropriate forum in which to debate it.
Expressed as in your first attempt, it is not since it uses inflammatory
and derogatory language. When this is done deliberately (which it seems
to be here as this has been pointed out to you several times before) it
becomes trolling.

HTH, HAND

john (you missed out Roma and socialists.)
Peter
2021-07-31 17:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Snippage has occurred.
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
You will know that the Nazis also terrorised faggots, or Fagotts if
you prefer.  Are they less deserving than jews?
I don't like to think what darkness *does* drive
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
comments such as the above.
The comment above is asking - was the way Nazis treated the jews any
worse than the way they treated homosexuals?  I think not, but no
doubt other views are possible.
Expressed that way it is a reasonable question, though one might
question whether umra is an appropriate forum in which to debate it.
It wasn't I who started this thread.
Post by John Ashby
Expressed as in your first attempt, it is not since it uses inflammatory
and derogatory language. When this is done deliberately (which it seems
to be here as this has been pointed out to you several times before) it
becomes trolling.
HTH, HAND
john (you missed out Roma and socialists
You'll not assume that me not mentioning certain groups means that I
wasn't aware of their victimhood.
Post by John Ashby
.)
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
Penny
2021-07-31 23:39:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 17:18:03 +0100, John Ashby <***@yahoo.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by John Ashby
john (you missed out Roma and socialists.)
And the mentally and physically disabled.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
John Ashby
2021-08-01 11:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by John Ashby
john (you missed out Roma and socialists.)
And the mentally and physically disabled.
Thank you, I acknowledge your amendment and apologise for the oversight.

john
Penny
2021-07-31 23:29:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 14:41:20 +0100, John Ashby <***@yahoo.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about them
than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't treat
the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic to
and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many others who
fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a situation where
precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government
did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would still
dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer no further
comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
You will know that the Nazis also terrorised faggots, or Fagotts if you
prefer.  Are they less deserving than jews?
I love a good faggot, I used to buy them from the butcher - not sure
they're kosher though.
Post by John Ashby
All woodwind matter.
:)
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Vicky Ayech
2021-08-01 10:01:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
I love a good faggot, I used to buy them from the butcher - not sure
they're kosher though.
Could faggot just be a meatloaf or is it the thick gravy makes it one?
My mum used to do an ok meatloaf in the oven, out of beef. I think
that would be kosher if from a kosher butcher.
Post by Penny
Post by John Ashby
All woodwind matter.
:)
Rosemary Miskin
2021-08-01 13:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vicky Ayech
Could faggot just be a meatloaf or is it the thick gravy makes it one?
Round here, a faggot is a large meatball, served in various ways.

Other regions may vary.

Rosemary
Peter
2021-08-01 13:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Post by Vicky Ayech
Could faggot just be a meatloaf or is it the thick gravy makes it one?
Round here, a faggot is a large meatball, served in various ways.
Yes, my mum used to make them to use up left-overs. Did you know my
mum? Round here, they are also small pieces of wood used for kindling.
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Other regions may vary.
Rosemary
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
Tony Smith
2021-08-01 14:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Round here, they are also small pieces of wood used for kindling.
Same here (Gloucestershire)

Within living memory one of the village pubs used to do Faggots and Mash but now offers only fancy and expensive rubbish.
Sam Plusnet
2021-08-01 18:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Smith
Post by Peter
Round here, they are also small pieces of wood used for kindling.
Same here (Gloucestershire)
Within living memory one of the village pubs used to do Faggots and Mash but now offers only fancy and expensive rubbish.
If Bubble and Squeak appears on some fancy menus. I don't see why a
tarted up version of Faggots & Mash should be left out.
--
Sam Plusnet
Serena Blanchflower
2021-08-01 19:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Smith
Post by Peter
Round here, they are also small pieces of wood used for kindling.
Same here (Gloucestershire)
Within living memory one of the village pubs used to do Faggots and
Mash but now offers only fancy and expensive rubbish.
If Bubble and Squeak appears on some fancy menus. I don't see why a
tarted up version of Faggots & Mash should be left out.
I've certainly seen faggots and mash appearing on relatively fancy pub
menus.
--
Best wishes, Serena
A lie has gone around the world twice before truth has put its pants on
(Mark Twain)
Serena Blanchflower
2021-08-01 15:48:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
I love a good faggot, I used to buy them from the butcher - not sure
they're kosher though.
Could faggot just be a meatloaf or is it the thick gravy makes it one?
My mum used to do an ok meatloaf in the oven, out of beef. I think
that would be kosher if from a kosher butcher.
Not really, as faggots are mainly offal, while meatloaves are made from
mince. I think that, traditionally, faggots are largely pig based but I
don't see why they couldn't be made kosher, by using other animals to
source the offal.
--
Best wishes, Serena
It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning
to others.
Vicky Ayech
2021-08-01 17:44:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:48:54 +0100, Serena Blanchflower
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
I love a good faggot, I used to buy them from the butcher - not sure
they're kosher though.
Could faggot just be a meatloaf or is it the thick gravy makes it one?
My mum used to do an ok meatloaf in the oven, out of beef. I think
that would be kosher if from a kosher butcher.
Not really, as faggots are mainly offal, while meatloaves are made from
mince. I think that, traditionally, faggots are largely pig based but I
don't see why they couldn't be made kosher, by using other animals to
source the offal.
I'd have to check with someopne whether all offal is ok of if some is
not. I know liver is. My gran used lights and brains but was not that
strict. Ok my grandfather had to eat his ham off paper not her plates
and she had a second set of china for the passover but I didn't feel
she was very observant as in no wig etc.Same cutlery etc for
everything.
Penny
2021-08-01 22:07:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 01 Aug 2021 11:01:27 +0100, Vicky Ayech <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by Penny
I love a good faggot, I used to buy them from the butcher - not sure
they're kosher though.
Could faggot just be a meatloaf or is it the thick gravy makes it one?
My mum used to do an ok meatloaf in the oven, out of beef. I think
that would be kosher if from a kosher butcher.
I'm not certain of the ingredients in proper butcher's faggots but the
lines of fat (probably pig fat, for flavour) around the outside seem to be
essential. I think packaged faggots (an altogether inferior thing) may have
a picture which includes gravy but I never made gravy to go with mine, in
fact I sometimes ate one cold, for lunch.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Vicky Ayech
2021-08-02 08:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by Penny
I love a good faggot, I used to buy them from the butcher - not sure
they're kosher though.
Could faggot just be a meatloaf or is it the thick gravy makes it one?
My mum used to do an ok meatloaf in the oven, out of beef. I think
that would be kosher if from a kosher butcher.
I'm not certain of the ingredients in proper butcher's faggots but the
lines of fat (probably pig fat, for flavour) around the outside seem to be
essential. I think packaged faggots (an altogether inferior thing) may have
a picture which includes gravy but I never made gravy to go with mine, in
fact I sometimes ate one cold, for lunch.
I found this. Sounds like yours

https://www.thespruceeats.com/classic-british-faggots-recipe-435283
and you could leave the tomatoes and cheese off this
https://www.thespruceeats.com/old-fashioned-homemade-meatloaf-3058286
Sid Nuncius
2021-07-31 14:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about them
than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't treat
the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic to
and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many others who
fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a situation where
precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government
did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would still
dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer no further
comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
This simply won't wash. I invite you to complete the following syllogism:
Peter dislikes Jews.
Sid is a Jew.
Therefore...

I have cut the remainder of your post because I do not wish to repeat
the use of such deliberately offensive language. I agree with John's
remarks and the same thoughts had occurred to me.

I shall now withdraw from this discussion, having probably engaged with
trollery for too long.
--
Sid
(Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Peter
2021-07-31 15:09:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about
them than all the others?  I'd dislike the jews less if they didn't
treat the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic to
and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many others
who fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a situation
where precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government
did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would still
dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer no
further comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
Peter dislikes Jews.
Rather than complete it, may I ask you to justify your first premise?
Post by Sid Nuncius
Sid is a Jew.
Therefore...
I have cut the remainder of your post because I do not wish to repeat
the use of such deliberately offensive language.  I agree with John's
remarks and the same thoughts had occurred to me.
I shall now withdraw from this discussion, having probably engaged with
trollery for too long.
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
John Ashby
2021-07-31 16:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
them than all the others? *** I'd dislike the jews less *** if they
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
didn't treat the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic
to and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many
others who fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a
situation where precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government
did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would
still dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer no
further comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
Peter dislikes Jews.
Rather than complete it, may I ask you to justify your first premise?
Since Sid has withdrawn, I have highlighted your own words which justify
his first premise. If some action would cause you to reduce your dislike
of Jews, then your dislike must be > 0. Were it >= 0 you would have said
"I'd like Jews more if..." Does that help?

john
Peter
2021-07-31 16:40:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
them than all the others? *** I'd dislike the jews less *** if they
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
didn't treat the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic
to and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many
others who fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a
situation where precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government
did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would
still dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer
no further comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
Peter dislikes Jews.
Rather than complete it, may I ask you to justify your first premise?
Since Sid has withdrawn, I have highlighted your own words which justify
his first premise. If some action would cause you to reduce your dislike
of Jews, then your dislike must be > 0. Were it >= 0 you would have said
"I'd like Jews more if..." Does that help?
john
The objection seems to be that I say 'the jews treat the Palestinians
badly' instead of enumerating the individuals that have treated them
badly. Consider, if you will, this statement (which I think is no less
true): 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly.' I'll assume you're
British. Would you object to 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly'
because you are a British person who never treated any Mau Mau badly? I
doubt it. 'the jews treat the Palestinians badly' is necessary
shorthand because I am unable to enumerate those individuals who treat
them badly. In the case of 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly' that
would be understood, why is it a problem in the jew case?
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
Min
2021-07-31 16:59:08 UTC
Permalink
The objection seems to be that I say 'the jews treat the Palestinians
badly' instead of enumerating the individuals that have treated them
badly. Consider, if you will, this statement (which I think is no less
true): 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly.' I'll assume you're
British. Would you object to 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly'
because you are a British person who never treated any Mau Mau badly? I
doubt it. 'the jews treat the Palestinians badly' is necessary
shorthand because I am unable to enumerate those individuals who treat
them badly. In the case of 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly' that
would be understood, why is it a problem in the jew case?
It should be boodly obvious to you that nobody cares what you think
and that this is not the newsgroup for your trollery. Unlike umrats nicer
than me, I don't give a toss whether you're off your meds or not. Shut up,
nugger off, or preferably both.
--
Min
Peter
2021-07-31 17:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Min
The objection seems to be that I say 'the jews treat the Palestinians
badly' instead of enumerating the individuals that have treated them
badly. Consider, if you will, this statement (which I think is no less
true): 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly.' I'll assume you're
British. Would you object to 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly'
because you are a British person who never treated any Mau Mau badly? I
doubt it. 'the jews treat the Palestinians badly' is necessary
shorthand because I am unable to enumerate those individuals who treat
them badly. In the case of 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly' that
would be understood, why is it a problem in the jew case?
It should be boodly obvious to you that nobody cares what you think
I wouldn't mind if that were so. But the responses I've got suggests
that it isn't so.
Post by Min
and that this is not the newsgroup for your trollery. Unlike umrats nicer
than me, I don't give a toss whether you're off your meds or not. Shut up,
nugger off, or preferably both.
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
Joe Kerr
2021-07-31 17:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.
Anyone would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to
kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
them than all the others? *** I'd dislike the jews less *** if they
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
didn't treat the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic
to and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many
others who fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a
situation where precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli
government did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.
He would still dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.
I offer no further comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
Peter dislikes Jews.
Rather than complete it, may I ask you to justify your first premise?
Since Sid has withdrawn, I have highlighted your own words which
justify his first premise. If some action would cause you to reduce
your dislike of Jews, then your dislike must be > 0. Were it >= 0 you
would have said "I'd like Jews more if..." Does that help?
john
The objection seems  to be that I say 'the jews treat the Palestinians
badly' instead of enumerating the individuals that have treated them
badly.  Consider, if you will, this statement (which I think is no less
true): 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly.'  I'll assume you're
British.  Would you object to 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly'
because you are a British person who never treated any Mau Mau badly?  I
doubt it.  'the jews treat the Palestinians badly' is necessary
shorthand because I am unable to enumerate those individuals who treat
them badly.  In the case of 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly' that
would be understood, why is it a problem in the jew case?
According to The World fact Book
(www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/israel) the Israeli population
is Jewish 74.1%, Muslim 17.9%, Christian 1.9%, Druze 1.6%, other 4.5%
(2019 est.). It appears that Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and others
treat the Palestinians badly. Presumably quite a few Jews, Muslims,
Christians, Druze and others have no involvement with the Palestinians.
--
Ric
Peter
2021-07-31 17:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.
Anyone would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to
kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
them than all the others? *** I'd dislike the jews less *** if they
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
didn't treat the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the
Jews with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are
sympathetic to and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there
are many others who fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate.
This is a situation where precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli
government did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.
He would still dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.
I offer no further comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
Peter dislikes Jews.
Rather than complete it, may I ask you to justify your first premise?
Since Sid has withdrawn, I have highlighted your own words which
justify his first premise. If some action would cause you to reduce
your dislike of Jews, then your dislike must be > 0. Were it >= 0 you
would have said "I'd like Jews more if..." Does that help?
john
The objection seems  to be that I say 'the jews treat the Palestinians
badly' instead of enumerating the individuals that have treated them
badly.  Consider, if you will, this statement (which I think is no
less true): 'the British treated the Mau Mau badly.'  I'll assume
you're British.  Would you object to 'the British treated the Mau Mau
badly' because you are a British person who never treated any Mau Mau
badly?  I doubt it.  'the jews treat the Palestinians badly' is
necessary shorthand because I am unable to enumerate those individuals
who treat them badly.  In the case of 'the British treated the Mau Mau
badly' that would be understood, why is it a problem in the jew case?
According to The World fact Book
(www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/israel) the Israeli population
is Jewish 74.1%, Muslim 17.9%, Christian 1.9%, Druze 1.6%, other 4.5%
(2019 est.). It appears that Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and others
treat the Palestinians badly
Why is it that when I mention the first of those groups I am criticized
for doing so? A, B and C to D surely implies that A does D.
Post by Joe Kerr
. Presumably quite a few Jews, Muslims,
Christians, Druze and others have no involvement with the Palestinians.
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
Peter
2021-07-31 17:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
And we are to get a blasted holocaust memorial as well.  Anyone
would think that the only wrong the Nazis did was to kill jews.
Well, quite.  Who cares about Jews - sorry, jews - for heavens sake?
The question is, rather, why are we supposed to care more about
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
them than all the others? *** I'd dislike the jews less *** if they
***********************************************************************
Post by Peter
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Peter
Post by John Ashby
Post by Peter
didn't treat the Palestinians as badly as the Nazis treated them.
This is a category error; you are incorrectly conflating the Jews
with the Israeli government. I know many Jews who are sympathetic
to and active in the Palestinian cause. I know there are many
others who fit the stereotype you seek to perpetuate. This is a
situation where precision and nuance are necessary.
Now go and troll elsewhere. You are, of course, welcome to make
umratic posts here as always.
Thank you John.  Please accept this <languid wave>.
I note that Peter would dislike me "less" if the Israeli government
did not behave so dreadfully toward the Palestinians.  He would
still dislike me because I have Jewish heritage, though.  I offer
no further comment.
I have no reasons to dislike you or dislike you less.
Peter dislikes Jews.
Rather than complete it, may I ask you to justify your first premise?
Since Sid has withdrawn, I have highlighted your own words which justify
his first premise. If some action would cause you to reduce your dislike
of Jews, then your dislike must be > 0. Were it >= 0 you would have said
"I'd like Jews more if..." Does that help?
You are getting perilously close to sophistry.
Post by John Ashby
john
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
Nick Odell
2021-07-29 17:52:32 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:45:24 +0100, Mike Ruddock
Post by Mike Ruddock
Thanks to those who tried to grapple with my "immer" problem. It seems
we are no further forward.
Meanwhile . . . Am I the only one to be staggered about the cost of the
newly unveiled (but I doubt it actually ever had a veil) memorial to the
police? It was said to have cost £4.5 million.
To put it in context: the Angel of the North cost less than a million.
Admittedly this was put up about 35 years ago so there's inflation to
consider but the Angel is far taller than the "portal" in Staffordshire
and has a far greater wind resistance. It was built to withstand winds
of 100 mph. It is located alongside the A1, a rather busy road.
The "portal" is far smaller and has a lot of holes in it and so has less
wind resistance. It is surrounded by a paved and grassed area in a quiet
park in the National Arboretum.
How can anyone defend the cost of this memorial? Where has all that
money gone? I am not against the memorial(my Dad was a copper,though
fortunately he did not die while on duty.)
Has some (hopefully a lot) of the money gone to the police benevolent
fund? Nobody said so.
Unfortunately, I find the cost completely believable. How much does
the sculptor and their team of construction engineers work for? That
bit of the National Arboretum will never again have trees growing on
it nor be able to support a multi-storey gifte shoppe so the value of
the location will have to be compensated for. Then there will be the
committees. The commissioning committee will have lots of
sub-committees such as the metallurgical committee who will write a
report determining whether 12% or 12.5% bronze would be more
appropriate; the planning committee will want to have their say and so
on, etc etc. And all their costs will be loaded onto the cost of the
project. I'm surprised that they got away with doing it so cheaply.

If I sound a tad cynical nay, bitter even, it might be because of a
previous experience. Imagine a charity being enticed to buy a building
for - say £300K with the promise of a £400K grant to refurbish it.
Imagine then being told - after a lot of effort to force the grant
giver to actually keep their promise and come up with the cash -
"here's the £180k we promised you - we spent the rest on
administration."

Nick
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