Discussion:
Ask Technica Umratica: PC Failure
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Joe Kerr
2020-12-30 22:48:50 UTC
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No, not a gripe about the local constabulary.

The other day I was using the Win 10 desktop when the picture went all
multicoloured snowstorm and the PC shutdown.It now won't shut back up
again (if you see what I mean).

I've checked the monitor and that still works fine.The PC was trying to
boot about 3 times and then stopped. The screen was showing the
multicoloured snowstorm or vertical coloured bars before shutting down
due to no input signal. I think the PC was supposed to boot off a CD or
USB drive if appropriate And I think it tried when given the chance and
failed. I've also tried forcing it to boot into safe mode without
success. Without a screen it is very difficult to know what is
happening, and being unable to boot off another device there is no way
to run diagnostics. Now, when it tries to boot, it seems to try one and
beeps, which may mean that the mother board/Bios has a problem - I may
have (just possibly) screwed the BIOS by semi-random key presses during
boot in a vain attempt to get something on the screen.

I'm thinking graphics card failure (I think it has a separate card -
I'll get the screwdriver out tomorrow), but would that cause boot
problems? Is the motherboard toast? Is there any way to force it to boot
from USB without having a screen to see what the boot sequence is?
Removing the HDD might do that.

All suggestions (legal, painless, ideally helpful, and mindful of social
distancing) gratefully received.
--
Ric
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2020-12-31 01:41:24 UTC
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Post by Joe Kerr
No, not a gripe about the local constabulary.
The other day I was using the Win 10 desktop when the picture went all
multicoloured snowstorm and the PC shutdown.It now won't shut back up
again (if you see what I mean).
I've checked the monitor and that still works fine.The PC was trying to
boot about 3 times and then stopped. The screen was showing the
multicoloured snowstorm or vertical coloured bars before shutting down
due to no input signal. I think the PC was supposed to boot off a CD or
USB drive if appropriate And I think it tried when given the chance and
failed. I've also tried forcing it to boot into safe mode without
success. Without a screen it is very difficult to know what is
happening, and being unable to boot off another device there is no way
to run diagnostics. Now, when it tries to boot, it seems to try one and
beeps, which may mean that the mother board/Bios has a problem - I may
have (just possibly) screwed the BIOS by semi-random key presses during
boot in a vain attempt to get something on the screen.
I'm thinking graphics card failure (I think it has a separate card -
I'm thinking the same. Could have just worked loose - or, if it has one,
its heatsink and/or fan might have, which if it's a fancy graphics card
might cause it to shut down not long after starting to protect itself.

If it does have a separate graphics card, the motherboard may also have
a basic graphic card output; if it does, unplugging the separate card
may force the basic one to operate.

What sort of graphics connector is the monitor plugged in with? Probably
VGA if older, HDMI if newer. (Worth checking it hasn't just worked
loose, but the symptoms don't sound like that.)

Mobo trying to boot then beeping suggests it's detecting a fault - the
pattern of beeps will tell you what, if you can find a motherboard
manual (ideally printed and came with the PC, but might well be findable
online - but if you don't have it, you probably don't know the model
number or even the make, and they aren't obvious). From memory,
possibilities are memory, HD, graphics, and overheating. I've never had
memory fail but it does; trying reseating it does no harm. If more than
one memory stick, try removing one or the other or swapping them over.
Disconnecting HD should show whether it's that - without an HD I think
it should at least show some message. CPU heatsink and/or fan could
cause overheating - if the paste has dried out or the seal is otherwise
broken.
Post by Joe Kerr
I'll get the screwdriver out tomorrow), but would that cause boot
problems? Is the motherboard toast? Is there any way to force it to
boot from USB without having a screen to see what the boot sequence is?
If you mean see which order it's set to boot in, I've never heard of an
audio sequence to tell you that.
Post by Joe Kerr
Removing the HDD might do that.
Usually the boot sequence is "try this then that then the other", so if
one - the HDD - isn't there, it should indeed move on to the next.

When it tries to start up, does it shut down after beeping - all fans
stop - or do they stay running? If it seems to shut down, do you have
something simple that's USB-powered (like a light - or something that
just charges from USB, but has a light to show whether it's charging),
that you can plug into every USB socket in turn to see if USB power is
still being supplied to any of them?
Post by Joe Kerr
All suggestions (legal, painless, ideally helpful, and mindful of
social distancing) gratefully received.
_Sounds_ like a graphic card fault. (If the graphic card has removable
memory modules on it, worth waggling those too.) If the mobo _does_ have
on-board graphics, those might be usable for now. (Might be of different
connector type.)

I've been known to help via Skype on a 'phone to see what's happening,
but it's not ideal (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

`Ergonomic' =/= `dext-handed'
Joe Kerr
2020-12-31 14:52:13 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
No, not a gripe about the local constabulary.
The other day I was using the Win 10 desktop when the picture went all
multicoloured snowstorm and the PC shutdown.It now won't shut back up
again (if you see what I mean).
I've checked the monitor and that still works fine.The PC was trying
to boot about 3 times and then stopped. The screen was showing the
multicoloured snowstorm or vertical coloured bars before shutting down
due to no input signal. I think the PC was supposed to boot off a CD
or USB drive if appropriate And I think it tried when given the chance
and failed. I've also tried forcing it to boot into safe mode without
success. Without a screen it is very difficult to know what is
happening, and being unable to boot off another device there is no way
to run diagnostics. Now, when it tries to boot, it seems to try one
and beeps, which may mean that the mother board/Bios has a problem - I
may have (just possibly) screwed the BIOS by semi-random key presses
during boot in a vain attempt to get something on the screen.
I'm thinking graphics card failure (I think it has a separate card -
I'm thinking the same. Could have just worked loose - or, if it has one,
its heatsink and/or fan might have, which if it's a fancy graphics card
might cause it to shut down not long after starting to protect itself.
If it does have a separate graphics card, the motherboard may also have
a basic graphic card output; if it does, unplugging the separate card
may force the basic one to operate.
That has resolved the problem.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What sort of graphics connector is the monitor plugged in with? Probably
VGA if older, HDMI if newer. (Worth checking it hasn't just worked
loose, but the symptoms don't sound like that.)
VGA and it was screwed in.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Mobo trying to boot then beeping suggests it's detecting a fault - the
pattern of beeps will tell you what, if you can find a motherboard
manual (ideally printed and came with the PC, but might well be findable
online - but if you don't have it, you probably don't know the model
number or even the make, and they aren't obvious). From memory,
possibilities are memory, HD, graphics, and overheating. I've never had
memory fail but it does; trying reseating it does no harm. If more than
one memory stick, try removing one or the other or swapping them over.
Disconnecting HD should show whether it's that - without an HD I think
it should at least show some message. CPU heatsink and/or fan could
cause overheating - if the paste has dried out or the seal is otherwise
broken.
There should be a paper manual somewhere. It is a Dell bought direct
from them. There is a number on the back that takes you to the (partial)
information for the specific machine when entered into their support
site. It was bought 11 years and 3 weeks ago, so they say, so some of
the information is missing, but documentation was present. It did a
single beep which the manual rather vaguely says is a motherboard or
BIOS fault, but without a display to know where it had got to in the
boot process it could have been an error code or just a friendly greeting.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
I'll get the screwdriver out tomorrow), but would that cause boot
problems? Is the motherboard toast? Is there any way to force it to
boot from USB without having a screen to see what the boot sequence is?
If you mean see which order it's set to boot in, I've never heard of an
audio sequence to tell you that.
Nor me, but you never know.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
Removing the HDD might do that.
Usually the boot sequence is "try this then that then the other", so if
one - the HDD - isn't there, it should indeed move on to the next.
When it tries to start up, does it shut down after beeping - all fans
stop - or do they stay running? If it seems to shut down, do you have
something simple that's USB-powered (like a light - or something that
just charges from USB, but has a light to show whether it's charging),
that you can plug into every USB socket in turn to see if USB power is
still being supplied to any of them?
Main fan was still running.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
All suggestions (legal, painless, ideally helpful, and mindful of
social distancing) gratefully received.
_Sounds_ like a graphic card fault. (If the graphic card has removable
memory modules on it, worth waggling those too.) If the mobo _does_ have
on-board graphics, those might be usable for now. (Might be of different
connector type.)
I've been known to help via Skype on a 'phone to see what's happening,
I take it that was an offer. Thank you, but not required.
--
Ric
Sam Plusnet
2020-12-31 19:47:04 UTC
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Post by Joe Kerr
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
If it does have a separate graphics card, the motherboard may also
have a basic graphic card output; if it does, unplugging the separate
card may force the basic one to operate.
That has resolved the problem.
Hurrah! The Good Luck Fairy does know where your house is after all.
--
Sam Plusnet
Joe Kerr
2020-12-31 22:17:31 UTC
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Post by Joe Kerr
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
If it does have a separate graphics card, the motherboard may also
have a basic graphic card output; if it does, unplugging the separate
card may force the basic one to operate.
That has resolved the problem.
Hurrah!  The Good Luck Fairy does know where your house is after all.
The problem is that I haven't been home for over two weeks.

Getting the car legal cost way more time, effort, worry and expense than
I needed. I just had to find a specialist and an MOT tester who actually
knew what he was doing.

The day after the PC packed up I hooked up the TV to the internet out of
curiosity and lost the ability to play anything other than from iPlayer.
Resolved, eventually, by unplugging from mains over lunch. I did learn
that you can test that an infra red remote is working by pointing it at
a digital camera. The camera can see it light up when you press a button
so you can check for flat batteries or sticking buttons.

I placed an order online in the middle of November but it wasn't
dispatched until mid December so is sitting in a warehouse waiting to be
delivered. They'll only deliver to me or somebody in my postcode but I
don't know any of my neighbours, or when I'll get home, and I really
wanted the parcel with me for Christmas. I can change the delivery date
but only by one week at a time so have to keep doing that till I get
home, but don't know how long I can delay for.

When I wake up I'll find I'm in Tier 4 so won't be allowed to go home
(to Tier 4), or stay overnight away from home, and if I do go home will
I be allowed to come back, or does being a carer override all the
restrictions.

As for Covid jabs: Do I count as being in an age bracket, vulnerable or
a carer and do I have to get the jab from my GP or can I get it here?

Then there is the legal stuff I'm dealing with where I really want to
get hold of and act on the documents that are, or soon will be, sitting
in my letter box at home, unless it is over flowing with redirected
Christmas cards intended for my Aunt from people who still need to be
told that she died.


I think I need more than just the one fairy.
--
Ric
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2020-12-31 23:08:19 UTC
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On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 at 22:17:31, Joe Kerr <***@cheerful.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
did learn that you can test that an infra red remote is working by
(I think the other sort of remote disappeared some decades ago!)
pointing it at a digital camera. The camera can see it light up when
you press a button so you can check for flat batteries or sticking
buttons.
[An analogue camera - such as a VHS or similar camcorder - will probably
work too.] Yes; they usually show up blue (which seems odd, as they're
off the red end of the spectrum; presumably the blue sensors are
sensitive to IR).
[]
When I wake up I'll find I'm in Tier 4 so won't be allowed to go home
(to Tier 4), or stay overnight away from home, and if I do go home will
I think in practice, they're not too bothered about travelling _within_
tier 4, though major journeys may be different.
I be allowed to come back, or does being a carer override all the
restrictions.
If the reason for your journey is to care, I suspect it would (IANAL).
As for Covid jabs: Do I count as being in an age bracket, vulnerable or
a carer and do I have to get the jab from my GP or can I get it here?
I doubt anyone is sure at the moment until they sort out the Aldi/Lidl
vaccine, as opposed to the Waitrose one we've had so far.
[]
I think I need more than just the one fairy.
I think so too. Hope things improve for you!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I asked a sample of people if they liked answering questionnaires, and 100% of
respondents said "Yes". - PMC @PmcRetired on twitter, 2020-11-18
Mike McMillan
2021-01-01 08:55:19 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I doubt anyone is sure at the moment until they sort out the Aldi/Lidl
vaccine, as opposed to the Waitrose one we've had so far.
You mean... When it’s gone... you’re a goner?
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2021-01-02 01:01:54 UTC
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Permalink
On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 at 08:55:19, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I doubt anyone is sure at the moment until they sort out the Aldi/Lidl
vaccine, as opposed to the Waitrose one we've had so far.
You mean... When it’s gone... you’re a goner?
(-:

I just meant it's cheap! [Not that that's any reflection on its
effectiveness.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Parkinson: "What caused your conversion to women - was it the love of a good
one?" George Melly: "No the love of several bad ones" (Lizbuff in UMRA
'01-4-25)
Anne B
2021-01-01 10:14:39 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
When I wake up I'll find I'm in Tier 4 so won't be allowed to go home
(to Tier 4), or stay overnight away from home, and if I do go home will
I think in practice, they're not too bothered about travelling _within_
tier 4, though major journeys may be different.
That would be a complete nonsense.

When the various levels were introduced here, travel from a Level 1 or
Level 2 area into or out of a Level 3 or Level 4 area was not
permitted*. So we would have been breaking the law if we had travelled
into most of central Scotland.

On 15 December we were in Level 1 and Aberdeenshire (nearest point 10
miles away) was in Level 2, so we were able to drive to a place in
Aberdeenshire for a walk, during which we saw just one other person, who
was pottering in his garden when we passed his house.

On 18 (or 19?) December Aberdeenshire was moved into Level 3, which
meant that the trip we had done a few days earlier was no longer
permitted*.

On 26 December we and Aberdeenshire were both moved into Level 4, the
same level as the rest of mainland Scotland. By your logic we would
then, having been barred from travelling* anywhere other than
Aberdeenshire and Highland 11 days earlier, have been allowed to travel
anywhere in Scotland.

Fortunately 'they' thought of that, and buried deep in the detail is a
prohibition on travelling* outwith one's own local authority boundary.

But plenty of people didn't think of it, didn't look for or find that
detail, rejoiced to be in the same level as Granny in Glasgow, and have
exercised their supposed freedom to go and bring the infection home with
them.

I think the guvmints of all the UK nations need to come clean and forbid
all travel* of more than say 10 miles from home.

*Except essential travel (fsvo 'essential')

Anne B
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2021-01-02 01:16:19 UTC
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Post by Anne B
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
When I wake up I'll find I'm in Tier 4 so won't be allowed to go
home (to Tier 4), or stay overnight away from home, and if I do go
home will
I think in practice, they're not too bothered about travelling
_within_ tier 4, though major journeys may be different.
That would be a complete nonsense.
Agreed; however, I suspect that's what the police - who have better
things to do than police boundaries - are concentrating on. However, I
have no evidence either way.
[Silly results snipped.]
The _intention_ is obviously to prevent people from lower tiers going
into higher tiers, as they're more likely to get infected, and to
prevent people from higher tiers going into lower ones, as they're more
likely to infect. However, they really apply only to high-density parts
of any tier; low-density parts, the restrictions are somewhat
irritating. Smaller divisions would be better _from that point of view_
- in the limit, coming down to town (or even village) boundaries - but
that would be impossible to police, would cause huge resentment, and if
you're going to allow some movement for some reasons, would have too
many exceptions.
Post by Anne B
Fortunately 'they' thought of that, and buried deep in the detail is a
prohibition on travelling* outwith one's own local authority boundary.
That burying was bad. I mean it being buried (so hard to find) was bad:
the actual principle is good. (Is that only in Scotland?)
Post by Anne B
But plenty of people didn't think of it, didn't look for or find that
detail, rejoiced to be in the same level as Granny in Glasgow, and have
exercised their supposed freedom to go and bring the infection home
with them.
I think the guvmints of all the UK nations need to come clean and
forbid all travel* of more than say 10 miles from home.
I think we need to return to a full lockdown with furlough payments. But
that would cost a fortune - but then that was what I thought the first
time round. Now we have the vaccine(s), I personally think the
psychological - and educational - damage would not be as great as is
made out, now an end is in sight. But IANA psychologist _or_ economist.
Post by Anne B
*Except essential travel (fsvo 'essential')
Anne B
John G
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Parkinson: "What caused your conversion to women - was it the love of a good
one?" George Melly: "No the love of several bad ones" (Lizbuff in UMRA
'01-4-25)
Serena Blanchflower
2021-01-02 09:56:01 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Anne B
Post by Joe Kerr
When I wake up I'll find I'm in Tier 4 so won't be allowed to go
home  (to Tier 4), or stay overnight away from home, and if I do go
home will
 I think in practice, they're not too bothered about travelling
_within_  tier 4, though major journeys may be different.
That would be a complete nonsense.
Agreed; however, I suspect that's what the police - who have better
things to do than police boundaries - are concentrating on. However, I
have no evidence either way.
[Silly results snipped.]
The _intention_ is obviously to prevent people from lower tiers going
into higher tiers, as they're more likely to get infected, and to
prevent people from higher tiers going into lower ones, as they're more
likely to infect. However, they really apply only to high-density parts
of any tier; low-density parts, the restrictions are somewhat
irritating. Smaller divisions would be better _from that point of view_
- in the limit, coming down to town (or even village) boundaries - but
that would be impossible to police, would cause huge resentment, and if
you're going to allow some movement for some reasons, would have too
many exceptions.
If you look at the Tier 4 regulations for England (I haven't checked the
regs for Scotland, or the other parts of the union), they make it pretty
exlicit that, when you do leave home you must stay local. They then
define this as "meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village,
town or the part of a city where you live – and look to reduce the
number of journeys you make overall.".

They also make very clear that, in Tier 4, you should stay at home at
all times, unless you have good reason to go out.


You can see the full regulation at
<https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home>.
--
Best wishes, Serena
The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive.
(Thich Nhat Hanh)
Joe Kerr
2021-01-08 23:43:46 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
I think I need more than just the one fairy.
I think so too. Hope things improve for you!
The toilet unblocking fairy (is that a specialised role?) came by the
other night, which was nice, but I'll miss the little chap looking up at
me.

And .. err ... there was something else that went wrong and has become
fixed in the last week but I have no idea what.

And the volunteer who was due to visit my mother this week couldn't
because she is isolating as her (absent) step-children have the lurgy.
--
Ric
Mike McMillan
2021-01-09 08:39:04 UTC
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Post by Joe Kerr
The toilet unblocking fairy (is that a specialised role?)
No, just a bog standard role.
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
Joe Kerr
2021-01-09 12:26:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
I think I need more than just the one fairy.
I think so too. Hope things improve for you!
The toilet unblocking fairy (is that a specialised role?) came by the
other night, which was nice, but I'll miss the little chap looking up at
me.
And .. err ... there was something else that went wrong and has become
fixed in the last week but I have no idea what.
Correction: The toaster has become a carboniser and remains unfixed as I
lack the enthusiasm to go brush the snow off the car to find a suitable
screwdriver.
Post by Joe Kerr
And the volunteer who was due to visit my mother this week couldn't
because she is isolating as her (absent) step-children have the lurgy.
--
Ric
Nick Odell
2021-01-09 17:06:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
I think I need more than just the one fairy.
I think so too. Hope things improve for you!
The toilet unblocking fairy (is that a specialised role?) came by the
other night, which was nice, but I'll miss the little chap looking up at
me.
And .. err ... there was something else that went wrong and has become
fixed in the last week but I have no idea what.
Correction: The toaster has become a carboniser and remains unfixed as I
lack the enthusiasm to go brush the snow off the car to find a suitable
screwdriver.
Post by Joe Kerr
And the volunteer who was due to visit my mother this week couldn't
because she is isolating as her (absent) step-children have the lurgy.
That sounds like the sort of fault that can be fixed using the skills
I have honed on computer keyboards, DVD drives and microwave ovens.
You may need a toothbrush but I'd suggest you don't use your own.

2)Drop toaster into a sinkful of hot, soapy water.
1)Unplugfrom the socket before you do anything else.
3)Scrub away all the crud that is blocking up the mechanism
4)Rinse thoroughly in fresh, clean water
5)Allow to dry very, very thoroughly before using again.

My 1970s toaster just keeps going on and on but the nice 21st Century
electronic one that was given to me a few Christmasses ago has needed
two clean-up sessions like that. Which is why I still keep the 70s one
in a cupboard.


Nick
Penny
2021-01-09 18:52:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 17:06:22 +0000, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
I think I need more than just the one fairy.
I think so too. Hope things improve for you!
The toilet unblocking fairy (is that a specialised role?) came by the
other night, which was nice, but I'll miss the little chap looking up at
me.
And .. err ... there was something else that went wrong and has become
fixed in the last week but I have no idea what.
Correction: The toaster has become a carboniser and remains unfixed as I
lack the enthusiasm to go brush the snow off the car to find a suitable
screwdriver.
That sounds like the sort of fault that can be fixed using the skills
I have honed on computer keyboards, DVD drives and microwave ovens.
You may need a toothbrush but I'd suggest you don't use your own.
Gosh, before you touch it with a screwdriver, let alone perform the rather
drastic-sounding cleanse Nick suggests, I'd clean it dry.

Mine hovers between under and over toasting. For some years I found just
turning the timer to max and back to min (it probably has numbers but they
are usually meaningless beyond indicating which end of the range is which).
This would sort things out for a week or so.

Now I just clean it more frequently and thoroughly than I used to, mostly
by taking it outside (after removing and emptying the crumb tray) and
banging it with one hand, then holding it upside-down with both hands and
shaking it. Repeat until it looks free of all combustibles. Reluctant
chunks of burnt bread can be broken up with a wooden skewer or chopstick
and removed by repeating the banging and shaking routine.
Post by Nick Odell
2)Drop toaster into a sinkful of hot, soapy water.
1)Unplugfrom the socket before you do anything else.
3)Scrub away all the crud that is blocking up the mechanism
4)Rinse thoroughly in fresh, clean water
5)Allow to dry very, very thoroughly before using again.
My 1970s toaster just keeps going on and on but the nice 21st Century
electronic one that was given to me a few Christmasses ago has needed
two clean-up sessions like that. Which is why I still keep the 70s one
in a cupboard.
I bought a new cheap one when I got fed up with the behaviour of the old
one referred to above. When it died after about 7 years, it did it
properly, and I revived the old one which keeps on going well, as long as
it's kept clean.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Nick Odell
2021-01-09 20:07:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 17:06:22 +0000, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
I think I need more than just the one fairy.
I think so too. Hope things improve for you!
The toilet unblocking fairy (is that a specialised role?) came by the
other night, which was nice, but I'll miss the little chap looking up at
me.
And .. err ... there was something else that went wrong and has become
fixed in the last week but I have no idea what.
Correction: The toaster has become a carboniser and remains unfixed as I
lack the enthusiasm to go brush the snow off the car to find a suitable
screwdriver.
That sounds like the sort of fault that can be fixed using the skills
I have honed on computer keyboards, DVD drives and microwave ovens.
You may need a toothbrush but I'd suggest you don't use your own.
Gosh, before you touch it with a screwdriver, let alone perform the rather
drastic-sounding cleanse Nick suggests, I'd clean it dry.
Yes. Amongst famous last words like "Don't worry men, they couldn't
hit a thing from that dist......." and "I think I could manage one of
Bellamy's veal pies" more common last words often take the form of
something like "Ah! I can see what's wrong with the toaster: pass me
that screwdriver, will you?"
Post by Penny
Mine hovers between under and over toasting. For some years I found just
turning the timer to max and back to min (it probably has numbers but they
are usually meaningless beyond indicating which end of the range is which).
This would sort things out for a week or so.
Now I just clean it more frequently and thoroughly than I used to, mostly
by taking it outside (after removing and emptying the crumb tray) and
banging it with one hand, then holding it upside-down with both hands and
shaking it. Repeat until it looks free of all combustibles. Reluctant
chunks of burnt bread can be broken up with a wooden skewer or chopstick
and removed by repeating the banging and shaking routine.
Post by Nick Odell
2)Drop toaster into a sinkful of hot, soapy water.
1)Unplugfrom the socket before you do anything else.
3)Scrub away all the crud that is blocking up the mechanism
4)Rinse thoroughly in fresh, clean water
5)Allow to dry very, very thoroughly before using again.
My 1970s toaster just keeps going on and on but the nice 21st Century
electronic one that was given to me a few Christmasses ago has needed
two clean-up sessions like that. Which is why I still keep the 70s one
in a cupboard.
I bought a new cheap one when I got fed up with the behaviour of the old
one referred to above. When it died after about 7 years, it did it
properly, and I revived the old one which keeps on going well, as long as
it's kept clean.
I reckon it is important to empty the crumb tray once in a while or
otherwise empty it out. The trouble is that things like bagels and
pannetone tend to leave a sticky residue behind and that gums up the
finely balanced ejection mechanism.

Nick
Penny
2021-01-09 23:50:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 20:07:11 +0000, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
I reckon it is important to empty the crumb tray once in a while or
otherwise empty it out. The trouble is that things like bagels and
pannetone tend to leave a sticky residue behind and that gums up the
finely balanced ejection mechanism.
This is true, but once caramelised it is easy to break it off the wires
without resorting to hot soapy water and a tooth brush!

I do make use of one of late great-aunt's rather worn down, long-handled,
bristle paint brushes - I've never seen one of her oils but her water
colours were lovely.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Mike McMillan
2021-01-10 09:03:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 20:07:11 +0000, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
I reckon it is important to empty the crumb tray once in a while or
otherwise empty it out. The trouble is that things like bagels and
pannetone tend to leave a sticky residue behind and that gums up the
finely balanced ejection mechanism.
This is true, but once caramelised it is easy to break it off the wires
without resorting to hot soapy water and a tooth brush!
I do make use of one of late great-aunt's rather worn down, long-handled,
bristle paint brushes - I've never seen one of her oils but her water
colours were lovely.
Burnt Ochre?
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
Mike McMillan
2021-01-10 09:01:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Nick Odell <***@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
The trouble is that things like bagels and
Post by Nick Odell
pannetone tend to leave a sticky residue behind and that gums up the
finely balanced ejection mechanism.
Nick
You toast Pat & Tony!???
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
Penny
2021-01-10 10:24:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 09:01:13 GMT, Mike McMillan <***@ntlworld.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Nick Odell
The trouble is that things like bagels and
Post by Nick Odell
pannetone tend to leave a sticky residue behind and that gums up the
finely balanced ejection mechanism.
Nick
You toast Pat & Tony!???
I tried making a pannetone bread & butter pudding the other day (I had a
very stale little one in the cupboard). It was not a great success - too
cakey to bake successfully - hot cross buns (back in the supermarket, I
notice) work much better.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Joe Kerr
2021-01-10 22:45:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Nick Odell
The trouble is that things like bagels and
Post by Nick Odell
pannetone tend to leave a sticky residue behind and that gums up the
finely balanced ejection mechanism.
Nick
You toast Pat & Tony!???
I tried making a pannetone bread & butter pudding the other day (I had a
very stale little one in the cupboard). It was not a great success - too
cakey to bake successfully - hot cross buns (back in the supermarket, I
notice) work much better.
I made one once that went down well (and stayed down). It was probably
this recipe:
www.ginodacampo.com/recipe/panettone-honey-pudding-with-chargrilled-fruits-ricotta
but I took the version from the TV programme site and swapped the honey
for maple syrup and lost the fruit.
--
Ric
Mike McMillan
2021-01-11 08:39:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Nick Odell
The trouble is that things like bagels and
Post by Nick Odell
pannetone tend to leave a sticky residue behind and that gums up the
finely balanced ejection mechanism.
Nick
You toast Pat & Tony!???
I tried making a pannetone bread & butter pudding the other day (I had a
very stale little one in the cupboard). It was not a great success - too
cakey to bake successfully - hot cross buns (back in the supermarket, I
notice) work much better.
I made one once that went down well (and stayed down). It was probably
www.ginodacampo.com/recipe/panettone-honey-pudding-with-chargrilled-fruits-ricotta
but I took the version from the TV programme site and swapped the honey
for maple syrup and lost the fruit.
But, apart from that, it was identical!
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
BrritSki
2021-01-11 09:50:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
I made one once that went down well (and stayed down). It was probably
www.ginodacampo.com/recipe/panettone-honey-pudding-with-chargrilled-fruits-ricotta
but I took the version from the TV programme site and swapped the honey
for maple syrup and lost the fruit.
Lost the fruit !?! The candied fruit is the point of Pat'n'Tony for me.

Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
Mike McMillan
2021-01-11 10:16:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Joe Kerr
I made one once that went down well (and stayed down). It was probably
www.ginodacampo.com/recipe/panettone-honey-pudding-with-chargrilled-fruits-ricotta
but I took the version from the TV programme site and swapped the honey
for maple syrup and lost the fruit.
Lost the fruit !?! The candied fruit is the point of Pat'n'Tony for me.
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
The Toodleses commented in a similar manner to eachother!
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
Tony Smith
2021-01-11 13:31:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
krw
2021-01-11 13:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
Well I was born some years later and managed a year of Latin in each of
two different schools.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Vicky Ayech
2021-01-11 18:04:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
Well I was born some years later and managed a year of Latin in each of
two different schools.
Second daughter did Latin as her language at GCSE as you didn't have
to speak it. Not a state school though. She later got quite good at
Spainish on her own and travelled round S America. :)
Nick Odell
2021-01-11 17:39:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 05:31:02 -0800 (PST), Tony Smith
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
I was born in 1949 and did two weeks of Latin (ie 2 hour-long periods)
during the General Studies classes on my A-level course.

I don't know: it might come in handy if I am ever elected by a surge
of populism to be Prime Minister. Tempus astra bodicum and all that.

Nick
Mike McMillan
2021-01-11 17:47:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 05:31:02 -0800 (PST), Tony Smith
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young
to have done Latin at school.
I was born in 1949 and did two weeks of Latin (ie 2 hour-long periods)
during the General Studies classes on my A-level course.
I don't know: it might come in handy if I am ever elected by a surge
of populism to be Prime Minister. Tempus astra bodicum and all that.
Nick
Do you mind Nick, this is a family newsgroup!
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
BrritSki
2021-01-11 17:47:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 05:31:02 -0800 (PST), Tony Smith
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
I was born in 1949 and did two weeks of Latin (ie 2 hour-long periods)
during the General Studies classes on my A-level course.
I don't know: it might come in handy if I am ever elected by a surge
of populism to be Prime Minister. Tempus astra bodicum and all that.
ITYM porci volaverit BAA BDH
Nick Odell
2021-01-11 18:12:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 17:47:48 +0000, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by Nick Odell
On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 05:31:02 -0800 (PST), Tony Smith
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
I was born in 1949 and did two weeks of Latin (ie 2 hour-long periods)
during the General Studies classes on my A-level course.
I don't know: it might come in handy if I am ever elected by a surge
of populism to be Prime Minister. Tempus astra bodicum and all that.
ITYM porci volaverit BAA BDH
:-)

N.
Rosemary Miskin
2021-01-11 23:37:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
He will still have needed Latin for entrance to Cambridge - that wasn't removed until some time later.

Rosemary
Tony Smith
2021-01-13 12:33:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
He will still have needed Latin for entrance to Cambridge - that wasn't removed until some time later.
Rosemary
I think it was removed in the '60s. But I had done my O Levels when I was 15 so I did have Latin when I applied to Cambridge even though by then I think two modern languages would have sufficed.

Latin is certainly still taught; my son did it at Little Boys' (and Little Girls') school and could have restarted at 11 but continued as a private pupil with his previous teacher.

As to the Prince's Latin itself, how about "terrae carta" or "carta ad(1) terram"?

(1) other prepositions are available
Sam Plusnet
2021-01-13 20:19:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Smith
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
He will still have needed Latin for entrance to Cambridge - that wasn't removed until some time later.
Rosemary
I think it was removed in the '60s. But I had done my O Levels when I was 15 so I did have Latin when I applied to Cambridge even though by then I think two modern languages would have sufficed.
Latin is certainly still taught; my son did it at Little Boys' (and Little Girls') school and could have restarted at 11 but continued as a private pupil with his previous teacher.
As to the Prince's Latin itself, how about "terrae carta" or "carta ad(1) terram"?
(1) other prepositions are available
If you need Latin for the judging, I'm pretty sure you would also need
it for the Princeing.
--
Sam Plusnet
Nick Odell
2021-01-13 21:51:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Smith
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
He will still have needed Latin for entrance to Cambridge - that wasn't removed until some time later.
Rosemary
I think it was removed in the '60s. But I had done my O Levels when I was 15 so I did have Latin when I applied to Cambridge even though by then I think two modern languages would have sufficed.
Latin is certainly still taught; my son did it at Little Boys' (and Little Girls') school and could have restarted at 11 but continued as a private pupil with his previous teacher.
As to the Prince's Latin itself, how about "terrae carta" or "carta ad(1) terram"?
(1) other prepositions are available
If you need Latin for the judging, I'm pretty sure you would also need
it for the Princeing.
Yebbut there aren't any examinations for the Princeing: one just sort
of makes it up as one goes along.

Nick
Sam Plusnet
2021-01-14 22:07:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Smith
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
He will still have needed Latin for entrance to Cambridge - that wasn't removed until some time later.
Rosemary
I think it was removed in the '60s. But I had done my O Levels when I was 15 so I did have Latin when I applied to Cambridge even though by then I think two modern languages would have sufficed.
Latin is certainly still taught; my son did it at Little Boys' (and Little Girls') school and could have restarted at 11 but continued as a private pupil with his previous teacher.
As to the Prince's Latin itself, how about "terrae carta" or "carta ad(1) terram"?
(1) other prepositions are available
If you need Latin for the judging, I'm pretty sure you would also need
it for the Princeing.
Yebbut there aren't any examinations for the Princeing: one just sort
of makes it up as one goes along.
There is a short oral exam.

"Who are your parents?"

(He got 75%)
--
Sam Plusnet
Nick Odell
2021-01-14 22:11:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Smith
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
He will still have needed Latin for entrance to Cambridge - that wasn't removed until some time later.
Rosemary
I think it was removed in the '60s. But I had done my O Levels when I was 15 so I did have Latin when I applied to Cambridge even though by then I think two modern languages would have sufficed.
Latin is certainly still taught; my son did it at Little Boys' (and Little Girls') school and could have restarted at 11 but continued as a private pupil with his previous teacher.
As to the Prince's Latin itself, how about "terrae carta" or "carta ad(1) terram"?
(1) other prepositions are available
If you need Latin for the judging, I'm pretty sure you would also need
it for the Princeing.
Yebbut there aren't any examinations for the Princeing: one just sort
of makes it up as one goes along.
There is a short oral exam.
"Who are your parents?"
(He got 75%)
He did better than Harry then.

Nick
Mike McMillan
2021-01-15 08:29:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Smith
Post by Rosemary Miskin
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too
young to have done Latin at school.
He will still have needed Latin for entrance to Cambridge - that
wasn't removed until some time later.
Rosemary
I think it was removed in the '60s. But I had done my O Levels when I
was 15 so I did have Latin when I applied to Cambridge even though by
then I think two modern languages would have sufficed.
Latin is certainly still taught; my son did it at Little Boys' (and
Little Girls') school and could have restarted at 11 but continued as
a private pupil with his previous teacher.
As to the Prince's Latin itself, how about "terrae carta" or "carta ad(1) terram"?
(1) other prepositions are available
If you need Latin for the judging, I'm pretty sure you would also need
it for the Princeing.
Yebbut there aren't any examinations for the Princeing: one just sort
of makes it up as one goes along.
There is a short oral exam.
"Who are your parents?"
(He got 75%)
He did better than Harry then.
Nick
Ah but he had a concrete excuse!
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
Chris J Dixon
2021-01-15 09:12:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
If you need Latin for the judging, I'm pretty sure you would also need
it for the Princeing.
Yebbut there aren't any examinations for the Princeing: one just sort
of makes it up as one goes along.
There is a short oral exam.
"Who are your parents?"
(He got 75%)
He did better than Harry then.
Ah but he had a concrete excuse!
BTN!

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.
John Ashby
2021-01-15 11:45:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Sam Plusnet
If you need Latin for the judging, I'm pretty sure you would also need
it for the Princeing.
Yebbut there aren't any examinations for the Princeing: one just sort
of makes it up as one goes along.
There is a short oral exam.
"Who are your parents?"
(He got 75%)
He did better than Harry then.
Ah but he had a concrete excuse!
BTN!
Chris
Accepted

john

Min
2021-01-12 00:05:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Smith
Talking of Archers characters, is there a new one ? I caught the tail
end of a news item about Terror Carter this morning...
I wondered about the Prince's Latin. Born in 1948 he might be too young to have done Latin at school.
I was born a dozen years later and they attempted to teach me Latin....
--
Min
Joe Kerr
2021-01-10 23:06:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Penny
On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 17:06:22 +0000, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
My 1970s toaster just keeps going on and on but the nice 21st Century
electronic one that was given to me a few Christmasses ago has needed
two clean-up sessions like that. Which is why I still keep the 70s one
in a cupboard.
I bought a new cheap one when I got fed up with the behaviour of the old
one referred to above. When it died after about 7 years, it did it
properly, and I revived the old one which keeps on going well, as long as
it's kept clean.
I reckon it is important to empty the crumb tray once in a while or
otherwise empty it out. The trouble is that things like bagels and
pannetone tend to leave a sticky residue behind and that gums up the
finely balanced ejection mechanism.
Nick
Well, I read that last sentence twice to make sure I got it right.

Finely balanced! Hah! Sometimes it pops up normally. Sometimes the toast
turns through 45 degrees and pops up with a point on it. Sometimes the
toast clears the toaster and drops back into the slot. Sometimes the
toast ends up on the floor. On one occasion that I wouldn't have
believed if I hadn't actually seen it the toast popped up clear of the
toaster and dropped back slightly to the side and came to rest standing
vertically on the top of the toaster. The toast may be a nice brown, or
a light brown or a dark brown (or just plain black at the last few
uses). It may be evenly coloured, or graduated from brown to off white,
or striped. Both sides may be same, or not.

This toaster provides hours of fun. I reckon it was made back when
people had to make their own entertainment. Not everyone could afford a
piano.
--
Ric
Mike McMillan
2021-01-11 08:41:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Penny
On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 17:06:22 +0000, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
My 1970s toaster just keeps going on and on but the nice 21st Century
electronic one that was given to me a few Christmasses ago has needed
two clean-up sessions like that. Which is why I still keep the 70s one
in a cupboard.
I bought a new cheap one when I got fed up with the behaviour of the old
one referred to above. When it died after about 7 years, it did it
properly, and I revived the old one which keeps on going well, as long as
it's kept clean.
I reckon it is important to empty the crumb tray once in a while or
otherwise empty it out. The trouble is that things like bagels and
pannetone tend to leave a sticky residue behind and that gums up the
finely balanced ejection mechanism.
Nick
Well, I read that last sentence twice to make sure I got it right.
Finely balanced! Hah! Sometimes it pops up normally. Sometimes the toast
turns through 45 degrees and pops up with a point on it. Sometimes the
toast clears the toaster and drops back into the slot. Sometimes the
toast ends up on the floor. On one occasion that I wouldn't have
believed if I hadn't actually seen it the toast popped up clear of the
toaster and dropped back slightly to the side and came to rest standing
vertically on the top of the toaster. The toast may be a nice brown, or
a light brown or a dark brown (or just plain black at the last few
uses). It may be evenly coloured, or graduated from brown to off white,
or striped. Both sides may be same, or not.
This toaster provides hours of fun. I reckon it was made back when
people had to make their own entertainment. Not everyone could afford a
piano.
😂
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
Joe Kerr
2021-01-10 22:54:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 17:06:22 +0000, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
I think I need more than just the one fairy.
I think so too. Hope things improve for you!
The toilet unblocking fairy (is that a specialised role?) came by the
other night, which was nice, but I'll miss the little chap looking up at
me.
And .. err ... there was something else that went wrong and has become
fixed in the last week but I have no idea what.
Correction: The toaster has become a carboniser and remains unfixed as I
lack the enthusiasm to go brush the snow off the car to find a suitable
screwdriver.
That sounds like the sort of fault that can be fixed using the skills
I have honed on computer keyboards, DVD drives and microwave ovens.
You may need a toothbrush but I'd suggest you don't use your own.
Gosh, before you touch it with a screwdriver, let alone perform the rather
drastic-sounding cleanse Nick suggests, I'd clean it dry.
Mine hovers between under and over toasting. For some years I found just
turning the timer to max and back to min (it probably has numbers but they
are usually meaningless beyond indicating which end of the range is which).
This would sort things out for a week or so.
Now I just clean it more frequently and thoroughly than I used to, mostly
by taking it outside (after removing and emptying the crumb tray) and
banging it with one hand, then holding it upside-down with both hands and
shaking it. Repeat until it looks free of all combustibles. Reluctant
chunks of burnt bread can be broken up with a wooden skewer or chopstick
and removed by repeating the banging and shaking routine.
I wasn't expecting helpful suggestions. (Nobody expects ...)

I've done the turning upside down and giving a good shake and and a
thump or two. I was only going to use the screwdrivers (Phillips and
torx!) to give it a better clean and check for any obvious problems
jamming the works.
Post by Penny
Post by Nick Odell
2)Drop toaster into a sinkful of hot, soapy water.
1)Unplugfrom the socket before you do anything else.
3)Scrub away all the crud that is blocking up the mechanism
4)Rinse thoroughly in fresh, clean water
5)Allow to dry very, very thoroughly before using again.
My 1970s toaster just keeps going on and on but the nice 21st Century
electronic one that was given to me a few Christmasses ago has needed
two clean-up sessions like that. Which is why I still keep the 70s one
in a cupboard.
I bought a new cheap one when I got fed up with the behaviour of the old
one referred to above. When it died after about 7 years, it did it
properly, and I revived the old one which keeps on going well, as long as
it's kept clean.
--
Ric
krw
2020-12-31 23:18:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
When I wake up I'll find I'm in Tier 4 so won't be allowed to go home
(to Tier 4), or stay overnight away from home, and if I do go home will
I be allowed to come back, or does being a carer override all the
restrictions.
I believe that Tier 4 to Tier 4 is permitted and as a carer you are in a
bubble presumably so that is allowed as well.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
krw
2021-01-01 13:10:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Joe Kerr
When I wake up I'll find I'm in Tier 4 so won't be allowed to go home
(to Tier 4), or stay overnight away from home, and if I do go home
will I be allowed to come back, or does being a carer override all the
restrictions.
I believe that Tier 4 to Tier 4 is permitted and as a carer you are in a
bubble presumably so that is allowed as well.
PS In England there is an allowance to return home to a Tier 4 if in
another tier which is what I intended to say.

I am far from convinced that tiers or lockdowns are having positive
effects on the virus spread whilst knowing that they are killing the
economy and having a huge deleterious impact on other aspects of health
(mental and physical). However TINA.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2020-12-31 22:58:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[]
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
If it does have a separate graphics card, the motherboard may also
have a basic graphic card output; if it does, unplugging the separate
card may force the basic one to operate.
That has resolved the problem.
Excellent! Does strongly suggest it was the graphic card at fault - or
something associated with it (card having worked loose, or its heatsink
if it has one, or its fan if it has one, or its memory modules [loose or
faulty]).
[]
Post by Joe Kerr
VGA and it was screwed in.
So not that then.
[]
Post by Joe Kerr
There should be a paper manual somewhere. It is a Dell bought direct
Ah, Dell make their own mobos, I think. They're quite good with online
manuals, even service ones, even for quite old models.
Post by Joe Kerr
from them. There is a number on the back that takes you to the
(partial) information for the specific machine when entered into their
[]
Post by Joe Kerr
did a single beep which the manual rather vaguely says is a motherboard
or BIOS fault, but without a display to know where it had got to in the
boot process it could have been an error code or just a friendly greeting.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
I'll get the screwdriver out tomorrow), but would that cause boot
problems? Is the motherboard toast? Is there any way to force it to
boot from USB without having a screen to see what the boot sequence is?
If you mean see which order it's set to boot in, I've never heard of
an audio sequence to tell you that.
Nor me, but you never know.
I keep thinking speech output of BIOS menus etc. is well overdue, for
the VH/VI community - which is quite large now; computers have been a
life-changer. Plus, of course, would be useful to us sighted folk, when
graphics hardware fails (including the monitor).
[]
Post by Joe Kerr
Main fan was still running.
That's a relief; usually means main processor isn't shutting down
immediately, which they can do due to overheating (which they can do in
a few seconds).
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
All suggestions (legal, painless, ideally helpful, and mindful of
social distancing) gratefully received.
_Sounds_ like a graphic card fault. (If the graphic card has
removable memory modules on it, worth waggling those too.) If the
mobo _does_ have on-board graphics, those might be usable for now.
(Might be of different connector type.)
I've been known to help via Skype on a 'phone to see what's
I take it that was an offer. Thank you, but not required.
Yes, but glad not to (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I asked a sample of people if they liked answering questionnaires, and 100% of
respondents said "Yes". - PMC @PmcRetired on twitter, 2020-11-18
Steve Hague
2020-12-31 06:02:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
No, not a gripe about the local constabulary.
The other day I was using the Win 10 desktop when the picture went all
multicoloured snowstorm and the PC shutdown.It now won't shut back up
again (if you see what I mean).
I've checked the monitor and that still works fine.The PC was trying to
boot about 3 times and then stopped. The screen was showing the
multicoloured snowstorm or vertical coloured bars before shutting down
due to no input signal. I think the PC was supposed to boot off a CD or
USB drive if appropriate And I think it tried when given the chance and
failed. I've also tried forcing it to boot into safe mode without
success. Without a screen it is very difficult to know what is
happening, and being unable to boot off another device there is no way
to run diagnostics. Now, when it tries to boot, it seems to try one and
beeps, which may mean that the mother board/Bios has a problem - I may
have (just possibly) screwed the BIOS by semi-random key presses during
boot in a vain attempt to get something on the screen.
I'm thinking graphics card failure (I think it has a separate card -
I'll get the screwdriver out tomorrow), but would that cause boot
problems? Is the motherboard toast? Is there any way to force it to boot
from USB without having a screen to see what the boot sequence is?
Removing the HDD might do that.
All suggestions (legal, painless, ideally helpful, and mindful of social
distancing) gratefully received.
I had a similar problem a few years ago, and the cause was indeed the
graphics card. Unfortunately the only way to find out for sure is by
replacement.
Steve
krw
2020-12-31 10:37:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hague
Post by Joe Kerr
No, not a gripe about the local constabulary.
The other day I was using the Win 10 desktop when the picture went all
multicoloured snowstorm and the PC shutdown.It now won't shut back up
again (if you see what I mean).
I've checked the monitor and that still works fine.The PC was trying
to boot about 3 times and then stopped. The screen was showing the
multicoloured snowstorm or vertical coloured bars before shutting down
due to no input signal. I think the PC was supposed to boot off a CD
or USB drive if appropriate And I think it tried when given the chance
and failed. I've also tried forcing it to boot into safe mode without
success. Without a screen it is very difficult to know what is
happening, and being unable to boot off another device there is no way
to run diagnostics. Now, when it tries to boot, it seems to try one
and beeps, which may mean that the mother board/Bios has a problem - I
may have (just possibly) screwed the BIOS by semi-random key presses
during boot in a vain attempt to get something on the screen.
I'm thinking graphics card failure (I think it has a separate card -
I'll get the screwdriver out tomorrow), but would that cause boot
problems? Is the motherboard toast? Is there any way to force it to
boot from USB without having a screen to see what the boot sequence
is? Removing the HDD might do that.
All suggestions (legal, painless, ideally helpful, and mindful of
social distancing) gratefully received.
I had a similar problem a few years ago, and the cause was indeed the
graphics card. Unfortunately the only way to find out for sure is by
replacement.
Steve
I would remove graphics card and connect the motherboard output to the
monitor. Then try booting. I lost the graphics card on the last PC and
used the basic motherboard video for a few months until the PC was
replaced. Graphic card failure could prevent boot up.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Marmaduke Jinks
2020-12-31 12:31:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Steve Hague
Post by Joe Kerr
No, not a gripe about the local constabulary.
The other day I was using the Win 10 desktop when the picture went all
multicoloured snowstorm and the PC shutdown.It now won't shut back up
again (if you see what I mean).
I've checked the monitor and that still works fine.The PC was trying to
boot about 3 times and then stopped. The screen was showing the
multicoloured snowstorm or vertical coloured bars before shutting down
due to no input signal. I think the PC was supposed to boot off a CD or
USB drive if appropriate And I think it tried when given the chance and
failed. I've also tried forcing it to boot into safe mode without
success. Without a screen it is very difficult to know what is
happening, and being unable to boot off another device there is no way
to run diagnostics. Now, when it tries to boot, it seems to try one and
beeps, which may mean that the mother board/Bios has a problem - I may
have (just possibly) screwed the BIOS by semi-random key presses during
boot in a vain attempt to get something on the screen.
I'm thinking graphics card failure (I think it has a separate card -
I'll get the screwdriver out tomorrow), but would that cause boot
problems? Is the motherboard toast? Is there any way to force it to boot
from USB without having a screen to see what the boot sequence is?
Removing the HDD might do that.
All suggestions (legal, painless, ideally helpful, and mindful of social
distancing) gratefully received.
I had a similar problem a few years ago, and the cause was indeed the
graphics card. Unfortunately the only way to find out for sure is by
replacement.
Steve
I would remove graphics card and connect the motherboard output to the
monitor. Then try booting. I lost the graphics card on the last PC and
used the basic motherboard video for a few months until the PC was
replaced. Graphic card failure could prevent boot up.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Normally 3 beeps on start up will tell you that the graphics card has gone.

MJ
Joe Kerr
2020-12-31 15:06:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Steve Hague
Post by Joe Kerr
No, not a gripe about the local constabulary.
The other day I was using the Win 10 desktop when the picture went
all multicoloured snowstorm and the PC shutdown.It now won't shut
back up again (if you see what I mean).
I've checked the monitor and that still works fine.The PC was trying
to boot about 3 times and then stopped. The screen was showing the
multicoloured snowstorm or vertical coloured bars before shutting
down due to no input signal. I think the PC was supposed to boot off
a CD or USB drive if appropriate And I think it tried when given the
chance and failed. I've also tried forcing it to boot into safe mode
without success. Without a screen it is very difficult to know what
is happening, and being unable to boot off another device there is no
way to run diagnostics. Now, when it tries to boot, it seems to try
one and beeps, which may mean that the mother board/Bios has a
problem - I may have (just possibly) screwed the BIOS by semi-random
key presses during boot in a vain attempt to get something on the
screen.
I'm thinking graphics card failure (I think it has a separate card -
I'll get the screwdriver out tomorrow), but would that cause boot
problems? Is the motherboard toast? Is there any way to force it to
boot from USB without having a screen to see what the boot sequence
is? Removing the HDD might do that.
All suggestions (legal, painless, ideally helpful, and mindful of
social distancing) gratefully received.
I had a similar problem a few years ago, and the cause was indeed the
graphics card. Unfortunately the only way to find out for sure is by
replacement.
Steve
I would remove graphics card and connect the motherboard output to the
monitor.  Then try booting.  I lost the graphics card on the last PC and
used the basic motherboard video for a few months until the PC was
replaced.  Graphic card failure could prevent boot up.
That was my plan/hope. Thanks for the confirmation. Graphics card
removed. Cunningly concealed graphics port on motherboard found. PC
booted. Now I'm curious as to why it came up with a stretched image
pre-logon and the post-logon screen was way off centre. Next job is to
clean all the dust out and work out why it runs so slowly.

Thanks for all suggestions.

This raises the question of why it had a separate graphics card. It came
pre-installed on a fairly low end general use domestic machine. Do I
need to replace it or am I good as I am? I don't do gaming or any heavy
graphic use.
--
Ric
krw
2020-12-31 15:14:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
This raises the question of why it had a separate graphics card. It came
pre-installed on a fairly low end general use domestic machine. Do I
need to replace it or am I good as I am? I don't do gaming or any heavy
graphic use.
My experience as previously mentioned for typical web browsing, emails,
spreadsheets and word processing is that the graphics card adds little
to the basic graphics. One reason for having one is that if it fails
then there is a fall back (as we have both found). On a machine of the
age you suggest my feeling would be that buying a new graphics card is
not worth the investment.

It is probably early warning that the machine is getting towards the end
of a normal life.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Joe Kerr
2020-12-31 15:32:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Joe Kerr
This raises the question of why it had a separate graphics card. It
came pre-installed on a fairly low end general use domestic machine.
Do I need to replace it or am I good as I am? I don't do gaming or any
heavy graphic use.
My experience as previously mentioned for typical web browsing, emails,
spreadsheets and word processing is that the graphics card adds little
to the basic graphics.  One reason for having one is that if it fails
then there is a fall back (as we have both found).
That thought crossed my mind but I can't see them having that level of
foresight.

On a machine of the
Post by krw
age you suggest my feeling would be that buying a new graphics card is
not worth the investment.
That also crossed my mind, especially when I saw that Curry's are
flogging them at 3 times what the entire PC cost in the first place (or
£20 at Amazon).
Post by krw
It is probably early warning that the machine is getting towards the end
of a normal life >
That is possible. It's a sort of spare that's not technically mine, even
though I'm the only person to use it. More problems to resolve.
--
Ric
Sam Plusnet
2020-12-31 19:53:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by krw
Post by Joe Kerr
This raises the question of why it had a separate graphics card. It
came pre-installed on a fairly low end general use domestic machine.
Do I need to replace it or am I good as I am? I don't do gaming or
any heavy graphic use.
My experience as previously mentioned for typical web browsing,
emails, spreadsheets and word processing is that the graphics card
adds little to the basic graphics.  One reason for having one is that
if it fails then there is a fall back (as we have both found).
That thought crossed my mind but I can't see them having that level of
foresight.
Dell want to sell a range of machines whilst actually making as few
different 'bits' as possible (cheaper for them).
They can sell a basic (perhaps commercial) model just using the built-in
graphics - or add a graphics card for retail.
By having a range of graphics cards, different amounts of RAM, size &
type of hard disc, they can offer a dozen different models which are
essentially the same box.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2020-12-31 23:17:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by krw
Post by Joe Kerr
This raises the question of why it had a separate graphics card. It
came pre-installed on a fairly low end general use domestic machine.
Do I need to replace it or am I good as I am? I don't do gaming or
any heavy graphic use.
I would have said not.
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by krw
My experience as previously mentioned for typical web browsing,
emails, spreadsheets and word processing is that the graphics card
adds little to the basic graphics.  One reason for having one is that
if it fails then there is a fall back (as we have both found).
That thought crossed my mind but I can't see them having that level of
foresight.
No, even for Dell, of whom I think reasonably highly. Mainly a way to
sell more hardware (and/or up the claimed specifications).
Post by Joe Kerr
On a machine of the
Post by krw
age you suggest my feeling would be that buying a new graphics card
is not worth the investment.
That also crossed my mind, especially when I saw that Curry's are
flogging them at 3 times what the entire PC cost in the first place (or
£20 at Amazon).
PC World aren't unknown to be way behind the market, so be still selling
things at way over the odds.
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by krw
It is probably early warning that the machine is getting towards the
end of a normal life >
That is possible. It's a sort of spare that's not technically mine,
even though I'm the only person to use it. More problems to resolve.
I wouldn't dismiss it - especially if, as by the sound of it, it's not
had much use. (Though if it's XP, it might be difficult to upgrade; XP
will still work fine for almost everything except web browsing, where
_some_ - unfortunately including many popular ones - websites will only
work with [versions of] browsers that won't install on XP. If you don't
visit those sites, XP will go on and on.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I asked a sample of people if they liked answering questionnaires, and 100% of
respondents said "Yes". - PMC @PmcRetired on twitter, 2020-11-18
Joe Kerr
2021-01-09 12:43:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Joe Kerr
 It is probably early warning that the machine is getting towards the
end  of a normal life >
That is possible. It's a sort of spare that's not technically mine,
even though I'm the only person to use it. More problems to resolve.
I wouldn't dismiss it - especially if, as by the sound of it, it's not
had much use. (Though if it's XP, it might be difficult to upgrade; XP
will still work fine for almost everything except web browsing, where
_some_ - unfortunately including many popular ones - websites will only
work with [versions of] browsers that won't install on XP. If you don't
visit those sites, XP will go on and on.)
I'll keep it going as long as it cooperates. It may have been Vista
originally. It definitely used to be Win 7 and is now a bodged Win 10,
that, as I recently mentioned somewhere, runs mind-numbingly slowly,
even though it appears (from a superficial check) to be well above
minimum spec. It used to get extensive use but now I have inherited it
it only used if I need Windows or for printing (as it is hooked up to
the printer).

When I get the time I need to sort out the install and then the performance.

Both my XP boxes have decided to refuse to boot - another task for when
I have time.
--
Ric
Mike McMillan
2020-12-31 16:10:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Joe Kerr
This raises the question of why it had a separate graphics card. It came
pre-installed on a fairly low end general use domestic machine. Do I
need to replace it or am I good as I am? I don't do gaming or any heavy
graphic use.
My experience as previously mentioned for typical web browsing, emails,
spreadsheets and word processing is that the graphics card adds little
to the basic graphics. One reason for having one is that if it fails
then there is a fall back (as we have both found). On a machine of the
age you suggest my feeling would be that buying a new graphics card is
not worth the investment.
It is probably early warning that the machine is getting towards the end
of a normal life.
In fact, it is pointing out its’ age to you in as graphic a way as it
can.;-)))
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2020-12-31 23:10:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 at 06:02:24, Steve Hague <***@gmail.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
Post by Steve Hague
I had a similar problem a few years ago, and the cause was indeed the
graphics card. Unfortunately the only way to find out for sure is by
replacement.
Steve
Or trying the suspect card in another machine, though there's the small
but not zero chance, depending what the fault is, that it might harm the
trial machine.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I asked a sample of people if they liked answering questionnaires, and 100% of
respondents said "Yes". - PMC @PmcRetired on twitter, 2020-11-18
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