Discussion:
Thunderbird
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Mike Ruddock
2019-10-08 08:30:46 UTC
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Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I open
it up again at a later date I invariably get a message:

Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.

And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?

Mike Ruddock
Sid Nuncius
2019-10-08 09:10:12 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I open
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
I'm afraid I can't help with that, Mike, but I did check my version of
Thunderbird. I'm on version 60.9.0 and it tells me that Thunderbird is
up to date.

Can anyrat explain how this can be up to date if Mike is on version 68.1.1?
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Nick Leverton
2019-10-08 09:30:39 UTC
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Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I open
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
I'm afraid I can't help with that, Mike, but I did check my version of
Thunderbird. I'm on version 60.9.0 and it tells me that Thunderbird is
up to date.
Can anyrat explain how this can be up to date if Mike is on version 68.1.1?
Thunderbird 60.9.0 is the current ESR release (Extended Support aka
long-term stable), whereas 68.x is from the ever changing leading-edge
release series.

Thunderbird ESR will at some point be updated to 68.x also, possibly
quite soon because Firefox ESR is also scheduled to jump to from v60 to
v68 later this month. But having done so, it will stay there for a good
year or more.

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996
Sid Nuncius
2019-10-08 16:50:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Leverton
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I open
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
I'm afraid I can't help with that, Mike, but I did check my version of
Thunderbird. I'm on version 60.9.0 and it tells me that Thunderbird is
up to date.
Can anyrat explain how this can be up to date if Mike is on version 68.1.1?
Thunderbird 60.9.0 is the current ESR release (Extended Support aka
long-term stable), whereas 68.x is from the ever changing leading-edge
release series.
Thunderbird ESR will at some point be updated to 68.x also, possibly
quite soon because Firefox ESR is also scheduled to jump to from v60 to
v68 later this month. But having done so, it will stay there for a good
year or more.
Thanks, Nick -that explains it. V. helpful.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Kate B
2019-10-08 09:44:06 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
I'm afraid I can't help with that, Mike, but I did check my version of
Thunderbird.  I'm on version 60.9.0 and it tells me that Thunderbird is
up to date.
Can anyrat explain how this can be up to date if Mike is on version 68.1.1?
I'm on TB 68.1.1 (32-bit, US version, will install GB once I get a
moment). It is a recent new install on a new W10 machine. Before that I
was happily running TB 60.8.0 (32-bit, GB version) on the old W7
machine, which got periodically updated. I now appear to be on something
called the 'release update channel', I'm not sure whether that was so
under the old dispensation. Are you on a release channel, Sid?

I don't get the behaviour Mike describes. I have had this message with
Firefox occasionally, when I'd shut it down and then immediately thought
of something else I needed to do and opened it again. I have also
noticed that TB takes longer than you might expect to close right down.
If you look at Task Manager/Performance/Resource Monitor/ after shutting
it, you can see it still beavering away to close down all its processes,
pinging various servers to tell them it's going away, generally
housekeeping.

Is it possible that TB really hasn't entirely closed down? For example
that some server (perhaps your email server? news server?) hasn't signed
itself off completely?
--
Kate B
London
Mike Ruddock
2019-10-08 10:50:39 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads
from T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old
Thunderbird process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
I'm afraid I can't help with that, Mike, but I did check my version of
Thunderbird.  I'm on version 60.9.0 and it tells me that Thunderbird
is up to date.
Can anyrat explain how this can be up to date if Mike is on version 68.1.1?
I'm on TB 68.1.1 (32-bit, US version, will install GB once I get a
moment). It is a recent new install on a new W10 machine. Before that I
was happily running TB 60.8.0 (32-bit, GB version) on the old W7
machine, which got periodically updated. I now appear to be on something
called the 'release update channel', I'm not sure whether that was so
under the old dispensation. Are you on a release channel, Sid?
I don't get the behaviour Mike describes. I have had this message with
Firefox occasionally, when I'd shut it down and then immediately thought
of something else I needed to do and opened it again. I have also
noticed that TB takes longer than you might expect to close right down.
If you look at Task Manager/Performance/Resource Monitor/ after shutting
it, you can see it still beavering away to close down all its processes,
pinging various servers to tell them it's going away, generally
housekeeping.
Is it possible that TB really hasn't entirely closed down? For example
that some server (perhaps your email server? news server?) hasn't signed
itself off completely?
Oh, thanks for that idea, Kate. I will try to be a little ser clsoing
down in future.

Mike Ruddock
Sid Nuncius
2019-10-08 16:53:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads
from T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old
Thunderbird process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
I'm afraid I can't help with that, Mike, but I did check my version of
Thunderbird.  I'm on version 60.9.0 and it tells me that Thunderbird
is up to date.
Can anyrat explain how this can be up to date if Mike is on version 68.1.1?
I'm on TB 68.1.1 (32-bit, US version, will install GB once I get a
moment). It is a recent new install on a new W10 machine. Before that I
was happily running TB 60.8.0 (32-bit, GB version) on the old W7
machine, which got periodically updated. I now appear to be on something
called the 'release update channel', I'm not sure whether that was so
under the old dispensation. Are you on a release channel, Sid?
I am on the release channel and get automatic updates. I don't know why
you're getting the leading edge releases while I'm on ESR, as helpfully
explained by Nick. I'm happy to be on the version which is known to be
long-term stable, though, and I hope this doesn't change.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Nick Leverton
2019-10-08 20:04:29 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Kate B
Post by Sid Nuncius
Can anyrat explain how this can be up to date if Mike is on version 68.1.1?
I'm on TB 68.1.1 (32-bit, US version, will install GB once I get a
moment). It is a recent new install on a new W10 machine. Before that I
was happily running TB 60.8.0 (32-bit, GB version) on the old W7
machine, which got periodically updated. I now appear to be on something
called the 'release update channel', I'm not sure whether that was so
under the old dispensation. Are you on a release channel, Sid?
I am on the release channel and get automatic updates. I don't know why
you're getting the leading edge releases while I'm on ESR, as helpfully
explained by Nick. I'm happy to be on the version which is known to be
long-term stable, though, and I hope this doesn't change.
It's down to which version was chosen for the original installation.
The upgrade series only changes if one explicitly installs the other
version, so you should be safe.

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996
Kate B
2019-10-08 22:27:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Leverton
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Kate B
Post by Sid Nuncius
Can anyrat explain how this can be up to date if Mike is on version 68.1.1?
I'm on TB 68.1.1 (32-bit, US version, will install GB once I get a
moment). It is a recent new install on a new W10 machine. Before that I
was happily running TB 60.8.0 (32-bit, GB version) on the old W7
machine, which got periodically updated. I now appear to be on something
called the 'release update channel', I'm not sure whether that was so
under the old dispensation. Are you on a release channel, Sid?
I am on the release channel and get automatic updates. I don't know why
you're getting the leading edge releases while I'm on ESR, as helpfully
explained by Nick. I'm happy to be on the version which is known to be
long-term stable, though, and I hope this doesn't change.
It's down to which version was chosen for the original installation.
The upgrade series only changes if one explicitly installs the other
version, so you should be safe.
I installed the version that downloaded itself when I clicked 'Download'
on the Thunderbird webpage. I was surprised when I got the US package as
I thought it might know where I was - I hadn't realised there were other
options available. I did notice that I now have two profiles, 'default'
and 'default-release', which is confusing. Only default-release actually
seems to work. I'd like to sort it all out neatly, but don't dare risk
losing it all by uninstalling or reinstalling over something crucial.
I'd much rather be strong and stable than a release-channel unmatched
genius.

I am also very miffed that the very useful 'Manually sort folders'
add-on isn't yet available for 68x.
--
Kate B
London
Nick Leverton
2019-10-09 09:39:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate B
I installed the version that downloaded itself when I clicked 'Download'
on the Thunderbird webpage. I was surprised when I got the US package as
I thought it might know where I was - I hadn't realised there were other
options available.
At this point I have to say I don't use Thunderbird, only Firefox.
However I found that the Google link for the download goes to the US
version, but if I go to the top level Thunderbird page it detects the
browser language and gives me the en-GB version. There is a "systems
and languages" link directly underneath to choose other alternatives if
that doesn't work.

I've found no problem in installing UK Firefox over the top of the US
one, and I hope this would also work for Thunderbird if one wanted.
It is possible to install language packs instead but apparently there's
also an obscure configuration item that needs to be found and changed.
Post by Kate B
I am also very miffed that the very useful 'Manually sort folders'
add-on isn't yet available for 68x.
Tardy updating by plugin authors is the main reason why I stick to the
ESR version of Firefox, it gives them several months extra to fix things
when Mozilla change stuff ...

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996
Sid Nuncius
2019-10-09 05:04:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Leverton
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Kate B
Post by Sid Nuncius
Can anyrat explain how this can be up to date if Mike is on version 68.1.1?
I'm on TB 68.1.1 (32-bit, US version, will install GB once I get a
moment). It is a recent new install on a new W10 machine. Before that I
was happily running TB 60.8.0 (32-bit, GB version) on the old W7
machine, which got periodically updated. I now appear to be on something
called the 'release update channel', I'm not sure whether that was so
under the old dispensation. Are you on a release channel, Sid?
I am on the release channel and get automatic updates. I don't know why
you're getting the leading edge releases while I'm on ESR, as helpfully
explained by Nick. I'm happy to be on the version which is known to be
long-term stable, though, and I hope this doesn't change.
It's down to which version was chosen for the original installation.
The upgrade series only changes if one explicitly installs the other
version, so you should be safe.
Phew! Thanks, Nick.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Nick Odell
2019-10-08 11:09:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:30:46 +0100, Mike Ruddock
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I open
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
Erme - I hate to ask but have you tried turning it off and turning it
back on again?

I get the impression that more and more people leave their computers
running 24/7 - only interrupted when an update requires a restart. I
find that everything runs much better all round if I shut down the
computer in an orderly way when I have finished with it and restart it
when I want to use it again. I suspect that the designers of Windows
software even intend it that way because I believe that unless you
tell it otherwise Windows shuts down in a manner that enables a fast
restart.

And just as a little aside: I'm sure I read recently that the largest
consumer of electricity in the world is no longer heavy industry but
data. Switching off our computers when they are not needed won't do
much to solve the energy crisis but every little helps.

Nick
Mike
2019-10-08 11:27:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:30:46 +0100, Mike Ruddock
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I open
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
Erme - I hate to ask but have you tried turning it off and turning it
back on again?
I get the impression that more and more people leave their computers
running 24/7 - only interrupted when an update requires a restart. I
find that everything runs much better all round if I shut down the
computer in an orderly way when I have finished with it and restart it
when I want to use it again. I suspect that the designers of Windows
software even intend it that way because I believe that unless you
tell it otherwise Windows shuts down in a manner that enables a fast
restart.
And just as a little aside: I'm sure I read recently that the largest
consumer of electricity in the world is no longer heavy industry but
data. Switching off our computers when they are not needed won't do
much to solve the energy crisis but every little helps.
Nick
MegaWatts are being consumed worldwide by servers sending cr*p to our
mailboxes so that we can use even more energy deleting it.
--
Toodle Pip
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2019-10-08 11:48:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:30:46 +0100, Mike Ruddock
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I open
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
(He did say "at a later date"; I was going to say - based on experience
with Firefox, but AIUI TB is mostly Firefox anyway - that it can take
ages to fully shut down [if you check in Task Manager], but "at a later
date" should eliminate that. Anotherrat has suggested that already
anyway.)
Post by Nick Odell
Erme - I hate to ask but have you tried turning it off and turning it
back on again?
I get the impression that more and more people leave their computers
running 24/7 - only interrupted when an update requires a restart. I
find that everything runs much better all round if I shut down the
computer in an orderly way when I have finished with it and restart it
I used to find that to some extent with XP; for the last few years of
using my XP, I shut it down anyway as the wifi tended to disconnect, and
a restart was the only way (that I found) to kick it into working again.
I haven't found much if any deterioration in 7 from leaving it on all
the time, so I do, as it takes so long to boot.
Post by Nick Odell
when I want to use it again. I suspect that the designers of Windows
software even intend it that way because I believe that unless you
tell it otherwise Windows shuts down in a manner that enables a fast
restart.
There are three sorts of shutdown/suspend/whatever, maybe four. If you
don't do anything for a while, the video goes off and the backlight
turns off, and the hard drive may stop spinning (you can set the times
for those); they come back instantly. Then there's (I think it's called)
suspend, when the above happen but also other things happen such as
processor slowing down and maybe some peripherals shut off, but the
running RAM is kept powered, so all can come back fairly quickly when
you want it. Then there's (I think) hibernate, where the contents of RAM
are dumped to disc, and everything does shut down, but on restart it
just reloads from RAM so you're back where you were - documents open,
whatever. Finally, there's the full shut down, where when you restart it
goes through a full boot, re-initialising (nearly) everything, which can
take a minute or two (for most of us; some showoffs, especially with
SSDs, manage quicker).

Windows 10, AIUI (I'm on 7) _defaults_ to hibernate when you shut it
down, i. e. never does a full restart unless you initiate it, or it
thinks it needs it itself.

(There's also a hybrid version for laptops, which I think is suspend by
default, but if it detects battery getting too low, does a hibernate.)
Post by Nick Odell
And just as a little aside: I'm sure I read recently that the largest
consumer of electricity in the world is no longer heavy industry but
data. Switching off our computers when they are not needed won't do
much to solve the energy crisis but every little helps.
Indeed, though I think the big consumers are data centres (Iceland and
similar climes are becoming popular places for such) and bitcoin (and
similar) mining. [Which I've always thought is a bad use: I've never
understood how bitcoins _work_. What are they backed by, and how on
earth do you produce ("mine") a new one?] Also, at this time of year
(UKrats), it's arguable that it just reduces what your heating has to do
(for those with thermostats, anyway) - though electric heating is more
expensive than gas for most of us.
Post by Nick Odell
Nick
John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Another lively meeting of thr 1922 Committee - the secret gathering of BBC
presenters that gets its name from the fact that no one is sober after
twenty-past seven. - Eddie Mair, RT 16-22 April 2011
Nick Odell
2019-10-08 16:58:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 12:48:58 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Nick Odell
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:30:46 +0100, Mike Ruddock
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I open
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
(He did say "at a later date"; I was going to say - based on experience
with Firefox, but AIUI TB is mostly Firefox anyway - that it can take
ages to fully shut down [if you check in Task Manager], but "at a later
date" should eliminate that. Anotherrat has suggested that already
anyway.)
@Mike R. Apologies if I misunderstood but I parsed your phrasing to
mean you closed Thunderbird but kept the computer running. And I
probably misunderstood it that way because that's what I tend to do
during a session.

@JPEG. Thunderbird has been separate from Firefox and Mozilla for
quite a long time but I presume there is still some legacy code in
there.

<snip>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
And just as a little aside: I'm sure I read recently that the largest
Post by Nick Odell
consumer of electricity in the world is no longer heavy industry but
data. Switching off our computers when they are not needed won't do
much to solve the energy crisis but every little helps.
Indeed, though I think the big consumers are data centres (Iceland and
similar climes are becoming popular places for such) and bitcoin (and
similar) mining. [Which I've always thought is a bad use: I've never
understood how bitcoins _work_. What are they backed by, and how on
earth do you produce ("mine") a new one?] Also, at this time of year
(UKrats), it's arguable that it just reduces what your heating has to do
(for those with thermostats, anyway) - though electric heating is more
expensive than gas for most of us.
I think I would rather "invest" in tulips or the South Sea Company
than Bitcoin.

Some years ago (I have to say that because the figures may have
changed since) I did some rule of thumb calculations and came to the
conclusion that the average value of Bitcoin over that period was
roughly equal to the average global cost of the electricity used to
"mine" it. So to my way of thinking the only ways of being certain of
making a profit would be to steal Bitcoin from somebody else or steal
the electricity you need to mine it and - surprise, surprise - that
seems to be what's going on.

Nick
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2019-10-08 22:39:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 12:48:58 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(He did say "at a later date"; I was going to say - based on experience
with Firefox, but AIUI TB is mostly Firefox anyway - that it can take
ages to fully shut down [if you check in Task Manager], but "at a later
date" should eliminate that. Anotherrat has suggested that already
anyway.)
@Mike R. Apologies if I misunderstood but I parsed your phrasing to
mean you closed Thunderbird but kept the computer running. And I
probably misunderstood it that way because that's what I tend to do
during a session.
I (this is JPG) have seen Firefox take many _minutes_ to shut down (or
occasionally just not do so at all if it's gone wrong), but never
(except under those circumstances) stay up until "a later date" - I'd
have thought an hour is normally fine.
Post by Nick Odell
@JPEG. Thunderbird has been separate from Firefox and Mozilla for
quite a long time but I presume there is still some legacy code in
there.
There's at least one (I think three) of the regulars in the XP/7 'groups
who often refer to TB as being mostly Firefox code, saying even the
basic layout (preview panes, etc.) are really HTML. I wouldn't know.
Though it having the ESR (infrequent updates) and normal (so frequent it
makes your head spin) parallel update methods sounds like it's not far
separated, unless (if it did) the forkers (!) decided to keep that
parallel update model.
Post by Nick Odell
<snip>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
And just as a little aside: I'm sure I read recently that the largest
Post by Nick Odell
consumer of electricity in the world is no longer heavy industry but
data. Switching off our computers when they are not needed won't do
much to solve the energy crisis but every little helps.
Indeed, though I think the big consumers are data centres (Iceland and
similar climes are becoming popular places for such) and bitcoin (and
similar) mining. [Which I've always thought is a bad use: I've never
understood how bitcoins _work_. What are they backed by, and how on
earth do you produce ("mine") a new one?] Also, at this time of year
(UKrats), it's arguable that it just reduces what your heating has to do
(for those with thermostats, anyway) - though electric heating is more
expensive than gas for most of us.
I think I would rather "invest" in tulips or the South Sea Company
than Bitcoin.
Some years ago (I have to say that because the figures may have
changed since) I did some rule of thumb calculations and came to the
conclusion that the average value of Bitcoin over that period was
roughly equal to the average global cost of the electricity used to
"mine" it. So to my way of thinking the only ways of being certain of
making a profit would be to steal Bitcoin from somebody else or steal
the electricity you need to mine it and - surprise, surprise - that
seems to be what's going on.
Nick
I've had this discussion somewhere else (might have been
uk.tech.broadcast), but it might be interesting to see if UMRA has a
take on it. My fundamental lack of understanding is that I don't
understand how bitcoins ever gained a value in the first place, let
alone how you can make more of them and create something people consider
to have value. (Saying "how does _any_ currency have value" _doesn't_
convince me; just because my answer to _that_ question is somewhat
fuzzy, doesn't invalidate, _or_ explain, my question of how
cryptocurrencies have value.) But it seems they _do_ have intrinsic
value, more than just emperor's new clothes/south sea bubble economics
would explain.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the God who endowed me with sense,
reason, and intellect intends me to forego their use". - Gallileo Gallilei
Flop
2019-10-09 11:54:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I (this is JPG) have seen Firefox take many _minutes_ to shut down (or
occasionally just not do so at all if it's gone wrong), but never
(except under those circumstances) stay up until "a later date" - I'd
have thought an hour is normally fine.
I have experienced this with both TB and FF.

I think that the main problem is impatience (mine).

Obviously, the program must close the program interface first.
It doesn't want you to be changing parts of it whilst it is trying to
store them.

So the window shuts and the program continues tidying itself up.
This can take some time so whilst you think that it is closed and try to
open it again, it gently tells you to wait until it has finished.
(Though not in so many words).
--
Flop

Truly the Good Lord gave us computers that we might learn patience
Jenny M Benson
2019-10-08 12:25:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
I get the impression that more and more people leave their computers
running 24/7 - only interrupted when an update requires a restart. I
find that everything runs much better all round if I shut down the
computer in an orderly way when I have finished with it and restart it
when I want to use it again. I suspect that the designers of Windows
software even intend it that way because I believe that unless you
tell it otherwise Windows shuts down in a manner that enables a fast
restart.
Yes, I read some advice recently that said something along the lines of
"Restart your computer, and yes I do mean Restart, not close down
because otherwise Windows doesn't completely shut down." I was
surprised because it seemed contrary to what one would reasonably expect.
--
Jenny M Benson
http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/
Mike
2019-10-08 12:54:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Nick Odell
I get the impression that more and more people leave their computers
running 24/7 - only interrupted when an update requires a restart. I
find that everything runs much better all round if I shut down the
computer in an orderly way when I have finished with it and restart it
when I want to use it again. I suspect that the designers of Windows
software even intend it that way because I believe that unless you
tell it otherwise Windows shuts down in a manner that enables a fast
restart.
Yes, I read some advice recently that said something along the lines of
"Restart your computer, and yes I do mean Restart, not close down
because otherwise Windows doesn't completely shut down." I was
surprised because it seemed contrary to what one would reasonably expect.
Yes, that is something I realised years ago and when things go t*ts up, I
find a complete shut down is the only practical form of reset.
--
Toodle Pip
Mike
2019-10-08 12:55:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Nick Odell
I get the impression that more and more people leave their computers
running 24/7 - only interrupted when an update requires a restart. I
find that everything runs much better all round if I shut down the
computer in an orderly way when I have finished with it and restart it
when I want to use it again. I suspect that the designers of Windows
software even intend it that way because I believe that unless you
tell it otherwise Windows shuts down in a manner that enables a fast
restart.
Yes, I read some advice recently that said something along the lines of
"Restart your computer, and yes I do mean Restart, not close down
because otherwise Windows doesn't completely shut down." I was
surprised because it seemed contrary to what one would reasonably expect.
Yes, that is something I realised years ago and when things go t*ts up, I
find a complete shut down is the only practical form of reset.
Applies to Apple too!
--
Toodle Pip
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2019-10-08 22:50:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[]
Post by Mike
Post by Jenny M Benson
Yes, I read some advice recently that said something along the lines of
"Restart your computer, and yes I do mean Restart, not close down
because otherwise Windows doesn't completely shut down." I was
surprised because it seemed contrary to what one would reasonably expect.
Yes, that is something I realised years ago and when things go t*ts up, I
find a complete shut down is the only practical form of reset.
1. I know someone who, to clear down everything, shuts down, removes the
mains lead from the back (or switches off with the actual switch on the
back of the power supply if it has one), and then - with the power still
disconnected - turns the computer on (you may get a flash of an LED or a
whir of a fan) to discharge anything in the power supply.

2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read about
can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power on. This is
because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc, then reloads them
on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That - I think it's called
hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default; in contrast, telling W10
to do a restart will (even though it doesn't get to the power off stage,
though it can look like it for a second or two) initiate a proper boot
process, rather than just loading back what it saved.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bugger," said Pooh, feeling very annoyed.
BrritSki
2019-10-09 07:29:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read about
can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power on. This is
because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc, then reloads them
on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That - I think it's called
hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default; in contrast, telling W10
to do a restart will (even though it doesn't get to the power off stage,
though it can look like it for a second or two) initiate a proper boot
process, rather than just loading back what it saved.
That's why I turn my laptop off by holding down the power key for 4
seconds. Clears everything out nicely and restarts clean. Then I run
Glary to clear the Chrome cache and then I restart Chrome which says
there was an unusual shutdown and would I like to restore the tabs that
were open which is exactly what I want.

I leave my laptop running all the time, but do the above every few days
or when its seems to be running slow or having other problems.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2019-10-09 13:11:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read
about can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power
on. This is because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc,
then reloads them on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That
- I think it's called hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default;
in contrast, telling W10 to do a restart will (even though it doesn't
get to the power off stage, though it can look like it for a second
or two) initiate a proper boot process, rather than just loading back >>what it saved.
That's why I turn my laptop off by holding down the power key for 4
seconds. Clears everything out nicely and restarts clean. Then I run
If you have a Windows previous to 10, that's fine (unless you've
_manually_ switched the shutdown behaviour to [what I think is]
hibernate).

W10 defaults to that mode, in which when you shut down, it does the RAM
save thing, meaning when next started it just reloads, rather than
initialising everything.

If you mean you don't tell it to shut down _at all_, but just do so by
the hard reset method (holding the button in), that's _probably_ not a
good idea, in _whatever_ Windows version; more recent ones do recover
from that most of the time, but you'll eventually kill it while it's
doing an important write, or something.
Post by BrritSki
Glary to clear the Chrome cache and then I restart Chrome which says
there was an unusual shutdown and would I like to restore the tabs that
were open which is exactly what I want.
I leave my laptop running all the time, but do the above every few days
or when its seems to be running slow or having other problems.
Touch wood, I haven't found that happen much with this machine and W7
(Home Premium, 32 bit, Classic Shell): I think I've had it on for weeks.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Actors are fairly modest...A lot of us have quite a lot to be modest about. -
Simon Greenall (voice of Aleksandr the "Simples!" Meerkat), RT 11-17 Dec 2010
Nick Odell
2019-10-09 18:34:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:29:30 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read about
can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power on. This is
because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc, then reloads them
on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That - I think it's called
hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default; in contrast, telling W10
to do a restart will (even though it doesn't get to the power off stage,
though it can look like it for a second or two) initiate a proper boot
process, rather than just loading back what it saved.
That's why I turn my laptop off by holding down the power key for 4
seconds. Clears everything out nicely and restarts clean. Then I run
Glary to clear the Chrome cache and then I restart Chrome which says
there was an unusual shutdown and would I like to restore the tabs that
were open which is exactly what I want.
I leave my laptop running all the time, but do the above every few days
or when its seems to be running slow or having other problems.
I think my Win 8.1 shares some characteristics with Win 10 in that
there are several ways to force a complete shutdown.

When I first got this machine, I went into the Control Panel and
altered the items on the power menu so that shutdown doesn't just put
the machine into hibernation. Windows 10 will do the same so Exit
means Exit, as they say.

If you prefer the Strong and Stable approach, Win 10 advertises itself
as forcing a complete shutdown when you press and hold the <shift> key
before you select the Power button on the screen and click shutdown.
It's just another way to Get Exit Done.

I've not tried the <shift>+ power routine on my Win 8.1(because I
altered the Control Panel to do that for me instead. But I might give
it a go and see what happens when I close up here for the night.


Nick
Nick Odell
2019-10-10 00:22:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 19:34:45 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:29:30 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read about
can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power on. This is
because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc, then reloads them
on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That - I think it's called
hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default; in contrast, telling W10
to do a restart will (even though it doesn't get to the power off stage,
though it can look like it for a second or two) initiate a proper boot
process, rather than just loading back what it saved.
That's why I turn my laptop off by holding down the power key for 4
seconds. Clears everything out nicely and restarts clean. Then I run
Glary to clear the Chrome cache and then I restart Chrome which says
there was an unusual shutdown and would I like to restore the tabs that
were open which is exactly what I want.
I leave my laptop running all the time, but do the above every few days
or when its seems to be running slow or having other problems.
I think my Win 8.1 shares some characteristics with Win 10 in that
there are several ways to force a complete shutdown.
When I first got this machine, I went into the Control Panel and
altered the items on the power menu so that shutdown doesn't just put
the machine into hibernation. Windows 10 will do the same so Exit
means Exit, as they say.
If you prefer the Strong and Stable approach, Win 10 advertises itself
as forcing a complete shutdown when you press and hold the <shift> key
before you select the Power button on the screen and click shutdown.
It's just another way to Get Exit Done.
I've not tried the <shift>+ power routine on my Win 8.1(because I
altered the Control Panel to do that for me instead. But I might give
it a go and see what happens when I close up here for the night.
I've tried it now and it takes exactly as long from the appearance of
the HP logo to the sign-in screen either way. Which is what I suppose
it ought to do if I've altered the Control Panel settings correctly.

Nick
Kate B
2019-10-10 11:47:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 19:34:45 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:29:30 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read about
can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power on. This is
because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc, then reloads them
on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That - I think it's called
hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default; in contrast, telling W10
to do a restart will (even though it doesn't get to the power off stage,
though it can look like it for a second or two) initiate a proper boot
process, rather than just loading back what it saved.
That's why I turn my laptop off by holding down the power key for 4
seconds. Clears everything out nicely and restarts clean. Then I run
Glary to clear the Chrome cache and then I restart Chrome which says
there was an unusual shutdown and would I like to restore the tabs that
were open which is exactly what I want.
I leave my laptop running all the time, but do the above every few days
or when its seems to be running slow or having other problems.
I think my Win 8.1 shares some characteristics with Win 10 in that
there are several ways to force a complete shutdown.
When I first got this machine, I went into the Control Panel and
altered the items on the power menu so that shutdown doesn't just put
the machine into hibernation. Windows 10 will do the same so Exit
means Exit, as they say.
If you prefer the Strong and Stable approach, Win 10 advertises itself
as forcing a complete shutdown when you press and hold the <shift> key
before you select the Power button on the screen and click shutdown.
It's just another way to Get Exit Done.
I've not tried the <shift>+ power routine on my Win 8.1(because I
altered the Control Panel to do that for me instead. But I might give
it a go and see what happens when I close up here for the night.
I've tried it now and it takes exactly as long from the appearance of
the HP logo to the sign-in screen either way. Which is what I suppose
it ought to do if I've altered the Control Panel settings correctly.
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what to
choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose Shut Down
the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power button (currently
this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut Down available in the
default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on the Start menu.

Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact just a
dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and Restart,
but not Hibernate.

Also this bear of little brain doesn't really understand what the
difference is technically between Sleep and Hibernation anyway :(
--
Kate B
London
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2019-10-10 12:30:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@mid.individual.net>, Kate B
<***@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
[]
Post by Kate B
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what to
choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose Shut
Down the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power button
(currently this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut Down
available in the default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on the Start
menu.
Interesting. The default being Sleep gels with what I'd heard about W10,
although I'd have expected Hibernate.
Post by Kate B
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact just
a dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and
Restart, but not Hibernate.
Sorry, can't help.
Post by Kate B
Also this bear of little brain doesn't really understand what the
difference is technically between Sleep and Hibernation anyway :(
I _think_ it's this: sleep is more or less turn everything off, but just
keep enough going to keep the RAM powered, so when "woken", everything
comes back to where it was. (Obviously it also has to keep going
whatever detects you trying to "wake" it, such as keyboard scanning and
listening to the mouse.) Hibernate dumps the RAM into a file on the
disc, then really does shut everything off - but leaves a marker
somewhere such that next time it is turned on, it doesn't go through the
normal complete boot sequence initialising everything, but just reloads
that file back into RAM, so it still comes back to where it was
(documents open, web page displayed, etc.). I think there's a "hybrid"
variation for laptops, which is sleep but if it detects battery about to
get too low to even keep RAM going, dump to disc and hibernate.
IANA Windows expert, though, so the above may be wrong.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The average age of a single mum in this country is 37
- Jane Rackham, RT 2016/5/28-6/3
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-10 18:33:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Kate B
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what to
choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose Shut
Down the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power button
(currently this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut Down
available in the default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on the
Start menu.
Interesting. The default being Sleep gels with what I'd heard about W10,
although I'd have expected Hibernate.
Post by Kate B
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact just
a dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and
Restart, but not Hibernate.
Sorry, can't help.
Post by Kate B
Also this bear of little brain doesn't really understand what the
difference is technically between Sleep and Hibernation anyway :(
I _think_ it's this: sleep is more or less turn everything off, but just
keep enough going to keep the RAM powered, so when "woken", everything
comes back to where it was. (Obviously it also has to keep going
whatever detects you trying to "wake" it, such as keyboard scanning and
listening to the mouse.) Hibernate dumps the RAM into a file on the
disc, then really does shut everything off - but leaves a marker
somewhere such that next time it is turned on, it doesn't go through the
normal complete boot sequence initialising everything, but just reloads
that file back into RAM, so it still comes back to where it was
(documents open, web page displayed, etc.). I think there's a "hybrid"
variation for laptops, which is sleep but if it detects battery about to
get too low to even keep RAM going, dump to disc and hibernate.
IANA Windows expert, though, so the above may be wrong.
Wofe used to have problems, because she would instruct her laptop to
close down - but then close the lid before it had time to complete the
whole sequence.
Thus it seemed to go into sleep (or hibernate?) mode, and the two things
(Close Down and Sleep) seemed to sometimes conflict in odd ways.
--
Sam Plusnet
Serena Blanchflower
2019-10-10 12:55:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate B
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what to
choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose Shut Down
the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power button (currently
this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut Down available in the
default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on the Start menu.
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact just a
dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and Restart,
but not Hibernate.
Do you have a variety of greyed out options, on the lower half of the
screen, for Shut-down settings. If you click on "Change settings that
are currently unavailable", they suddenly become available to change and
you can unclick "Turn on fast start-up".

I think this probably turns shut down into a more complete shut down but
I haven't done a timed comparison of with / without that option.
--
Best wishes, Serena
Christians shouldn't just be pulling people out of the river. We should
be going upstream to find out who's pushing them in. (Desmond Tutu)
Kate B
2019-10-10 14:33:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Kate B
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what to
choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose Shut
Down the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power button
(currently this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut Down
available in the default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on the
Start menu.
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact just
a dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and
Restart, but not Hibernate.
Do you have a variety of greyed out options, on the lower half of the
screen, for Shut-down settings.  If you click on "Change settings that
are currently unavailable", they suddenly become available to change and
you can unclick "Turn on fast start-up".
Where do you see that? I don't have anything greyed-out, and I don't
even seem to have anything called 'shutdown settings'.
Post by Serena Blanchflower
I think this probably turns shut down into a more complete shut down but
I haven't done a timed comparison of with / without that option.
--
Kate B
London
Serena Blanchflower
2019-10-10 14:42:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Kate B
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what to
choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose Shut
Down the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power button
(currently this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut Down
available in the default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on the
Start menu.
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact
just a dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and
Restart, but not Hibernate.
Do you have a variety of greyed out options, on the lower half of the
screen, for Shut-down settings.  If you click on "Change settings that
are currently unavailable", they suddenly become available to change
and you can unclick "Turn on fast start-up".
Where do you see that? I don't have anything greyed-out, and I don't
even seem to have anything called 'shutdown settings'.
In Win 10, Control Panel, System Settings, Choose what the Power Buttons
Do. You can see the screen I get at:


<Loading Image...
--
Best wishes, Serena
In order to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you first need a pair of
boots
Kate B
2019-10-10 16:41:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Kate B
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Kate B
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what
to choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose
Shut Down the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power
button (currently this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut
Down available in the default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on
the Start menu.
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact
just a dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and
Restart, but not Hibernate.
Do you have a variety of greyed out options, on the lower half of the
screen, for Shut-down settings.  If you click on "Change settings
that are currently unavailable", they suddenly become available to
change and you can unclick "Turn on fast start-up".
Where do you see that? I don't have anything greyed-out, and I don't
even seem to have anything called 'shutdown settings'.
In Win 10, Control Panel, System Settings, Choose what the Power Buttons
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/rzehxaohu6vqo8z/Screenshot%202019-10-10%2015.38.03.jpg?dl=0>
Oh yes, I can see it now. Weird, I'm sure it wasn't there before...

So my final question is 'Is the "Shut Down" command in the Start menu a
proper shut down, or should I enable one of these options?'
--
Kate B
London
Serena Blanchflower
2019-10-10 20:19:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Kate B
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Kate B
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what
to choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose
Shut Down the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power
button (currently this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut
Down available in the default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on
the Start menu.
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact
just a dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep
and Restart, but not Hibernate.
Do you have a variety of greyed out options, on the lower half of
the screen, for Shut-down settings.  If you click on "Change
settings that are currently unavailable", they suddenly become
available to change and you can unclick "Turn on fast start-up".
Where do you see that? I don't have anything greyed-out, and I don't
even seem to have anything called 'shutdown settings'.
In Win 10, Control Panel, System Settings, Choose what the Power
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/rzehxaohu6vqo8z/Screenshot%202019-10-10%2015.38.03.jpg?dl=0>
Oh yes, I can see it now. Weird, I'm sure it wasn't there before...
So my final question is 'Is the "Shut Down" command in the Start menu a
proper shut down, or should I enable one of these options?'
I'm not sure but I THINK that, if you switch off fast start-up, you get
a proper shut down while, if you have it switched on it will be more
like hibernation.
--
Best wishes, Serena
You cannot prevent the birds of sadness from flying overhead, but you
can prevent them from nesting in your hair. (Chinese proverb)
Nick Odell
2019-10-10 13:31:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 19:34:45 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:29:30 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read about
can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power on. This is
because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc, then reloads them
on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That - I think it's called
hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default; in contrast, telling W10
to do a restart will (even though it doesn't get to the power off stage,
though it can look like it for a second or two) initiate a proper boot
process, rather than just loading back what it saved.
That's why I turn my laptop off by holding down the power key for 4
seconds. Clears everything out nicely and restarts clean. Then I run
Glary to clear the Chrome cache and then I restart Chrome which says
there was an unusual shutdown and would I like to restore the tabs that
were open which is exactly what I want.
I leave my laptop running all the time, but do the above every few days
or when its seems to be running slow or having other problems.
I think my Win 8.1 shares some characteristics with Win 10 in that
there are several ways to force a complete shutdown.
When I first got this machine, I went into the Control Panel and
altered the items on the power menu so that shutdown doesn't just put
the machine into hibernation. Windows 10 will do the same so Exit
means Exit, as they say.
If you prefer the Strong and Stable approach, Win 10 advertises itself
as forcing a complete shutdown when you press and hold the <shift> key
before you select the Power button on the screen and click shutdown.
It's just another way to Get Exit Done.
I've not tried the <shift>+ power routine on my Win 8.1(because I
altered the Control Panel to do that for me instead. But I might give
it a go and see what happens when I close up here for the night.
I've tried it now and it takes exactly as long from the appearance of
the HP logo to the sign-in screen either way. Which is what I suppose
it ought to do if I've altered the Control Panel settings correctly.
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what to
choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose Shut Down
the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power button (currently
this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut Down available in the
default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on the Start menu.
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact just a
dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and Restart,
but not Hibernate.
I don't have Win 10, just 8.1, so I can't offer my own experience but
Windows describes it's normal shutdown as "hybrid." Google (without
quotes) "Win 10 hybrid shutdown" for a better description and
step-by-step instructions on how to avoid it.
Post by Kate B
Also this bear of little brain doesn't really understand what the
difference is technically between Sleep and Hibernation anyway :(
Best ask a hedgehog or a squirrel?

When a computer goes to sleep it keeps everything active in the memory
and continues to supply enough power to sustain everything there. When
it hibernates it saves all that information to the hard disk and
switches off the power. Becoming active again after sleep ought only
take a few seconds whilst hibernation takes a little longer to recover
from. I think.

Nick
Kate B
2019-10-10 14:33:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Kate B
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 19:34:45 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:29:30 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read about
can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power on. This is
because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc, then reloads them
on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That - I think it's called
hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default; in contrast, telling W10
to do a restart will (even though it doesn't get to the power off stage,
though it can look like it for a second or two) initiate a proper boot
process, rather than just loading back what it saved.
That's why I turn my laptop off by holding down the power key for 4
seconds. Clears everything out nicely and restarts clean. Then I run
Glary to clear the Chrome cache and then I restart Chrome which says
there was an unusual shutdown and would I like to restore the tabs that
were open which is exactly what I want.
I leave my laptop running all the time, but do the above every few days
or when its seems to be running slow or having other problems.
I think my Win 8.1 shares some characteristics with Win 10 in that
there are several ways to force a complete shutdown.
When I first got this machine, I went into the Control Panel and
altered the items on the power menu so that shutdown doesn't just put
the machine into hibernation. Windows 10 will do the same so Exit
means Exit, as they say.
If you prefer the Strong and Stable approach, Win 10 advertises itself
as forcing a complete shutdown when you press and hold the <shift> key
before you select the Power button on the screen and click shutdown.
It's just another way to Get Exit Done.
I've not tried the <shift>+ power routine on my Win 8.1(because I
altered the Control Panel to do that for me instead. But I might give
it a go and see what happens when I close up here for the night.
I've tried it now and it takes exactly as long from the appearance of
the HP logo to the sign-in screen either way. Which is what I suppose
it ought to do if I've altered the Control Panel settings correctly.
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what to
choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose Shut Down
the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power button (currently
this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut Down available in the
default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on the Start menu.
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact just a
dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and Restart,
but not Hibernate.
I don't have Win 10, just 8.1, so I can't offer my own experience but
Windows describes it's normal shutdown as "hybrid." Google (without
quotes) "Win 10 hybrid shutdown" for a better description and
step-by-step instructions on how to avoid it.
Post by Kate B
Also this bear of little brain doesn't really understand what the
difference is technically between Sleep and Hibernation anyway :(
Best ask a hedgehog or a squirrel?
When a computer goes to sleep it keeps everything active in the memory
and continues to supply enough power to sustain everything there. When
it hibernates it saves all that information to the hard disk and
switches off the power. Becoming active again after sleep ought only
take a few seconds whilst hibernation takes a little longer to recover
from. I think.
So what is the difference between hibernation and shutting down?
--
Kate B
London
John Ashby
2019-10-10 15:25:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Kate B
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 19:34:45 +0100, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:29:30 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read about
can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power on. This is
because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc, then reloads them
on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That - I think it's called
hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default; in contrast, telling W10
to do a restart will (even though it doesn't get to the power off stage,
though it can look like it for a second or two) initiate a proper boot
process, rather than just loading back what it saved.
That's why I turn my laptop off by holding down the power key for 4
seconds. Clears everything out nicely and restarts clean. Then I run
Glary to clear the Chrome cache and then I restart Chrome which says
there was an unusual shutdown and would I like to restore the tabs that
were open which is exactly what I want.
I leave my laptop running all the time, but do the above every few days
or when its seems to be running slow or having other problems.
I think my Win 8.1 shares some characteristics with Win 10 in that
there are several ways to force a complete shutdown.
When I first got this machine, I went into the Control Panel and
altered the items on the power menu so that shutdown doesn't just put
the machine into hibernation. Windows 10 will do the same so Exit
means Exit, as they say.
If you prefer the Strong and Stable approach, Win 10 advertises itself
as forcing a complete shutdown when you press and hold the <shift> key
before you select the Power button on the screen and click shutdown.
It's just another way to Get Exit Done.
I've not tried the <shift>+ power routine on my Win 8.1(because I
altered the Control Panel to do that for me instead. But I might give
it a go and see what happens when I close up here for the night.
I've tried it now and it takes exactly as long from the appearance of
the HP logo to the sign-in screen either way. Which is what I suppose
it ought to do if I've altered the Control Panel settings correctly.
I've been looking and now am really confused about this as to what to
choose. On W10, Advanced Power Options will allow me to choose Shut Down
the computer on closing the lid or pressing the power button (currently
this makes them Sleep). The only option to Shut Down available in the
default settings is to choose 'Shut Down' on the Start menu.
Is the Start menu 'Shut Down' a proper shutdown? Or is it in fact just a
dressed-up hibernation? The other options there are Sleep and Restart,
but not Hibernate.
I don't have Win 10, just 8.1, so I can't offer my own experience but
Windows describes it's normal shutdown as "hybrid." Google (without
quotes) "Win 10 hybrid shutdown" for a better description and
step-by-step instructions on how to avoid it.
Post by Kate B
Also this bear of little brain doesn't really understand what the
difference is technically between Sleep and Hibernation anyway :(
Best ask a hedgehog or a squirrel?
When a computer goes to sleep it keeps everything active in the memory
and continues to supply enough power to sustain everything there. When
it hibernates it saves all that information to the hard disk and
switches off the power. Becoming active again after sleep ought only
take a few seconds whilst hibernation takes a little longer to recover
from.  I think.
So what is the difference between hibernation and shutting down?
Shutting down will close all running programs (including the OS) and
switch off the power. On starting up again the OS will load from scratch
without any running application programs (unless any are specified to be
run on startup). Previous application states will only be available if
the application saved them before closing (e.g. a word processor may
have saved a recovery version of a document, a web browser may know what
tabs you had open and offer to reload them, etc.)

john
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-10 18:28:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Also this bear of little brain doesn't really understand what the
difference is technically between Sleep and Hibernation anyway :(
Hiburniation is for PC owners residing in Ireland.

HTH HAND
--
Sam Plusnet
Jenny M Benson
2019-10-09 08:46:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
2. Counterintuitive though it may be, the restart Jenny has read about
can be more thorough than a shutdown to power off then power on. This is
because if the shutdown stores lots of things on disc, then reloads them
on next bootup, it can reload a wrong system. That - I think it's called
hibernate - is what Windows 10 does by default; in contrast, telling W10
to do a restart will (even though it doesn't get to the power off stage,
though it can look like it for a second or two) initiate a proper boot
process, rather than just loading back what it saved.
Thanks for that explanation, Jpeg. The idea makes sense now.
--
Jenny M Benson
http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/
Sid Nuncius
2019-10-08 16:49:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Nick Odell
I get the impression that more and more people leave their computers
running 24/7 - only interrupted when an update requires a restart. I
find that everything runs much better all round if I shut down the
computer in an orderly way when I have finished with it and restart it
when I want to use it again. I suspect that the designers of Windows
software even intend it that way because I believe that unless you
tell it otherwise Windows shuts down in a manner that enables a fast
restart.
Yes, I read some advice recently that said something along the lines of
"Restart your computer, and yes I do mean Restart, not close down
because otherwise Windows doesn't completely shut down."  I was
surprised because it seemed contrary to what one would reasonably expect.
I read that too when my Windows 10 notebook began behaving oddly even
though I always shut down when finished with it. A restart solved the
problem, so it sounds as though it's true.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Sid Nuncius
2019-10-08 16:56:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
I get the impression that more and more people leave their computers
running 24/7 - only interrupted when an update requires a restart. I
find that everything runs much better all round if I shut down the
computer in an orderly way when I have finished with it and restart it
when I want to use it again.
Agreed. I shut mine down each night and start it up again each morning.
That and running Glary every week or so seems to do the trick.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Peter Withey
2019-10-09 09:00:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:30:46 +0100, Mike Ruddock
Post by Mike Ruddock
Over the past few months I seem to have had a number of downloads from
T'bird. According to the "About" panel I have the latest version
(68.1.1) but it is a bit odd.
At the end of every session on umra I close down T'bird but when I open
Thunderbird is already running but not responding. The old Thunderbird
process must be closed to open a new window.
And I am asked if I wish to close Thunderbird or wish to cancel.
If I do either T'bird operates exactly as expected.
What is going on?
Mike Ruddock
I don't use thunderbird but if no umrat comes up with the answer and
you are still having the problem it might be worth asking in:

mozilla.support.thunderbird

hth
--
Pete
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2019-10-09 13:02:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@4ax.com>, Peter Withey
<***@never.here> writes:
[]
Post by Peter Withey
I don't use thunderbird but if no umrat comes up with the answer and
mozilla.support.thunderbird
hth
Note that to gain access to the mozilla newsgroups, you have to sign up
to the mozilla newsserver (which is free). [Some posts in some of those
'groups do leak out into the wild usenet, but to see all - and have
others see yours - you have to do the above.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Actors are fairly modest...A lot of us have quite a lot to be modest about. -
Simon Greenall (voice of Aleksandr the "Simples!" Meerkat), RT 11-17 Dec 2010
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