Discussion:
There's a gransnet thread about jury service
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Vicky Ayech
2020-11-13 12:17:37 UTC
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Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times and otehrs said if
they had and did they like it. It made me wonder if that has been
suspended. B thinks it has in Scotland. How would they have it now if
it is 12 people from different bubbles? I do know the speeding course
that you can take if you get a ticket was only online during lockdown
but you can't do juries with zoom, can you?\
Jenny M Benson
2020-11-13 12:25:47 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times and otehrs said if
they had and did they like it. It made me wonder if that has been
suspended. B thinks it has in Scotland. How would they have it now if
it is 12 people from different bubbles? I do know the speeding course
that you can take if you get a ticket was only online during lockdown
but you can't do juries with zoom, can you?\
See
<https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-courts-and-tribunals-planning-and-preparation>.
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
BrritSki
2020-11-13 12:58:35 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times and otehrs said if
they had and did they like it. It made me wonder if that has been
suspended. B thinks it has in Scotland. How would they have it now if
it is 12 people from different bubbles? I do know the speeding course
that you can take if you get a ticket was only online during lockdown
but you can't do juries with zoom, can you?\
It is suspended. Norty Dorter was due to have done jury service last week.
Mike McMillan
2020-11-13 13:56:55 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times and otehrs said if
they had and did they like it. It made me wonder if that has been
suspended. B thinks it has in Scotland. How would they have it now if
it is 12 people from different bubbles? I do know the speeding course
that you can take if you get a ticket was only online during lockdown
but you can't do juries with zoom, can you?\
Might give an new meaning to the term ‘in camera’ I suppose.
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2020-11-14 13:23:32 UTC
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Permalink
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 13:56:55, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times and otehrs said if
they had and did they like it. It made me wonder if that has been
Called once, two cases. Certainly _interesting_; not sure I'd say I
_liked_ it.

We (in this thread) are probably all in deep trouble - aren't we not
supposed to talk about certain aspects? But since several others have:

First case was a rather nasty rape case. I don't mean it was nasty in
the sense normally shown (or hinted at) in CSU and other dramas, i. e.
excessive violence etc.: it was just nasty in the relationships. Couple
had been together for years - they had a small boy - though IIRR had
never actually married; going through a bad patch, one night she called
the cops, who had no option but to treat it seriously. Basically, my
impression was that it was really sad, and court was not the place to
sort it. Eventually not guilty - I can't remember whether they were
advised to take counselling; IMO things would have been far better if
they'd done so in the first place.

Second case was careless/dangerous driving - or something like that; we
had to choose between two of that sort of thing (or innocent of all of
course). Driver had pulled in front of another car (small 4WD) - IIRR,
to get to a slip road to leave the motorway, doing so in such a manner
that the latter had to break so sharply that it was hit by the lorry
behind. (Driver had just overtaken that lorry and car, then realised he
was closer to the exit he wanted to take than he thought.) Nobody killed
or AFAICR _seriously_ injured, though the back of the hit car pretty
mangled; lorry driver hurt his wrist enough to be in local hospital for
a few days. Trouble is, case was over a year later - that was nobody's
fault, that's just how overloaded the system is - _but_, (a) nobody'd
asked the lorry driver for his version before he went back to Poland,
(b) they'd delayed long enough before asking the mobile 'phone company
if the swerving driver was on the 'phone at the time, that their records
weren't available. Didn't help that the accused was the sort of person
we're programmed to dislike - company director or something, fancy car.
I hope we managed to suppress that. We _did_ find him guilty - I can't
remember, but I _think_ it was the more serious charge. (I think he got
disqualification, retests, and lots of financial penalty - I don't
_think_ any custodial; I don't think that would have helped anyone. But
I can't remember for sure.)

First case took about first week; second case took IIRR three or four
days. I had to attend for rest of second week, but wasn't called.

Applied for and received the compensation available.
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Vicky Ayech
suspended. B thinks it has in Scotland. How would they have it now if
it is 12 people from different bubbles? I do know the speeding course
that you can take if you get a ticket was only online during lockdown
but you can't do juries with zoom, can you?\
Might give an new meaning to the term ‘in camera’ I suppose.
Origin of "camera" is of course just the word for a room - via perhaps
"camera obscura", "darkened room". (Same root as "chamber".) The camera
obscura was a Victorian (?) novelty - a darkened room, often placed in
or by a park, with a pivotable lens/mirror assembly on top; on a sunny
day, this projected an image of the surrounding scene onto a screen
inside, so that those inside the room could see it, unknown to anyone in
the location (allegedly including courting couples; I think the lens
assembly might have been telescopic). Photographic cameras are just a
darkened chamber.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anybody can garble quotations like that -- even with the Bible... Er... "And he
went and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5). Go, and do thou likewise (Luke 10:37)."
Anne B
2020-11-14 14:03:32 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 13:56:55, Mike McMillan
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times and otehrs said if
they had and did they like it.   It made me wonder if that has been
We (in this thread) are probably all in deep trouble - aren't we not
supposed to talk about certain aspects?
That's why I have said nothing about the content of the case.

Anne B
Philip Hole
2020-11-14 15:40:35 UTC
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Post by Anne B
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 13:56:55, Mike McMillan
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times and otehrs said if
they had and did they like it.   It made me wonder if that has been
We (in this thread) are probably all in deep trouble - aren't we not
supposed to talk about certain aspects?
That's why I have said nothing about the content of the case.
Anne B
IANAL but..

I believe that discussing the content of a trial is not illegal.

What cannot be reported is anything concerned with what goes on in the
jury room.
--
Flop
Mike McMillan
2020-11-16 15:43:44 UTC
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Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 13:56:55, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times and otehrs said if
they had and did they like it. It made me wonder if that has been
Called once, two cases. Certainly _interesting_; not sure I'd say I
_liked_ it.
We (in this thread) are probably all in deep trouble - aren't we not
First case was a rather nasty rape case. I don't mean it was nasty in
the sense normally shown (or hinted at) in CSU and other dramas, i. e.
excessive violence etc.: it was just nasty in the relationships. Couple
had been together for years - they had a small boy - though IIRR had
never actually married; going through a bad patch, one night she called
the cops, who had no option but to treat it seriously. Basically, my
impression was that it was really sad, and court was not the place to
sort it. Eventually not guilty - I can't remember whether they were
advised to take counselling; IMO things would have been far better if
they'd done so in the first place.
Second case was careless/dangerous driving - or something like that; we
had to choose between two of that sort of thing (or innocent of all of
course). Driver had pulled in front of another car (small 4WD) - IIRR,
to get to a slip road to leave the motorway, doing so in such a manner
that the latter had to break so sharply that it was hit by the lorry
behind. (Driver had just overtaken that lorry and car, then realised he
was closer to the exit he wanted to take than he thought.) Nobody killed
or AFAICR _seriously_ injured, though the back of the hit car pretty
mangled; lorry driver hurt his wrist enough to be in local hospital for
a few days. Trouble is, case was over a year later - that was nobody's
fault, that's just how overloaded the system is - _but_, (a) nobody'd
asked the lorry driver for his version before he went back to Poland,
(b) they'd delayed long enough before asking the mobile 'phone company
if the swerving driver was on the 'phone at the time, that their records
weren't available. Didn't help that the accused was the sort of person
we're programmed to dislike - company director or something, fancy car.
I hope we managed to suppress that. We _did_ find him guilty - I can't
remember, but I _think_ it was the more serious charge. (I think he got
disqualification, retests, and lots of financial penalty - I don't
_think_ any custodial; I don't think that would have helped anyone. But
I can't remember for sure.)
First case took about first week; second case took IIRR three or four
days. I had to attend for rest of second week, but wasn't called.
Applied for and received the compensation available.
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Vicky Ayech
suspended. B thinks it has in Scotland. How would they have it now if
it is 12 people from different bubbles? I do know the speeding course
that you can take if you get a ticket was only online during lockdown
but you can't do juries with zoom, can you?\
Might give an new meaning to the term ‘in camera’ I suppose.
Origin of "camera" is of course just the word for a room - via perhaps
"camera obscura", "darkened room". (Same root as "chamber".) The camera
obscura was a Victorian (?) novelty - a darkened room, often placed in
or by a park, with a pivotable lens/mirror assembly on top; on a sunny
day, this projected an image of the surrounding scene onto a screen
inside, so that those inside the room could see it, unknown to anyone in
the location (allegedly including courting couples; I think the lens
assembly might have been telescopic). Photographic cameras are just a
darkened chamber.
Jpeg, I endeavoured to send you a piccie of the Camera Obscura that
overlooks the Brissel Suspender Bridge but.... despite the Virgin Media’s
Mailer Daemon, it ‘twouldn’t drop into your mail box, Ho-Hum.
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2020-11-16 17:14:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 at 15:43:44, Mike McMillan
<***@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[]
Post by Mike McMillan
Jpeg, I endeavoured to send you a piccie of the Camera Obscura that
overlooks the Brissel Suspender Bridge but.... despite the Virgin Media’s
Mailer Daemon, it ‘twouldn’t drop into your mail box, Ho-Hum.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Clifton+Suspension+Bridge/@51.4566228,-2.6268106,43m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4870b536e385dd53:0xed9161d2e9
26ecce!8m2!3d51.4549089!4d-2.6278553
(I just put Bristol Suspension Bridge into Google Maps.) Thanks; looks
like a fine example. I've never actually been in one.

Is your picture very large?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

What's really worth knowing is for the most part unlearnable until you have
enough experience to even recognise it as knowledge, let alone as useful
knowledge. - Wolf K <***@sympatico.ca>, in alt.windows7.general, 2017-4-30
Mike McMillan
2020-11-17 09:16:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 at 15:43:44, Mike McMillan
[]
Post by Mike McMillan
Jpeg, I endeavoured to send you a piccie of the Camera Obscura that
overlooks the Brissel Suspender Bridge but.... despite the Virgin Media’s
Mailer Daemon, it ‘twouldn’t drop into your mail box, Ho-Hum.
26ecce!8m2!3d51.4549089!4d-2.6278553
(I just put Bristol Suspension Bridge into Google Maps.) Thanks; looks
like a fine example. I've never actually been in one.
Is your picture very large?
About 2.5 MB ISTR.
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
Mike McMillan
2020-11-17 09:17:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 at 15:43:44, Mike McMillan
[]
Post by Mike McMillan
Jpeg, I endeavoured to send you a piccie of the Camera Obscura that
overlooks the Brissel Suspender Bridge but.... despite the Virgin Media’s
Mailer Daemon, it ‘twouldn’t drop into your mail box, Ho-Hum.
26ecce!8m2!3d51.4549089!4d-2.6278553
(I just put Bristol Suspension Bridge into Google Maps.) Thanks; looks
like a fine example. I've never actually been in one.
Is your picture very large?
A euphemism if ever I saw one!
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
Mike Ruddock
2020-11-17 09:30:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 at 15:43:44, Mike McMillan
[]
Post by Mike McMillan
Jpeg, I endeavoured to send you a piccie of the Camera Obscura that
overlooks the Brissel Suspender Bridge but.... despite the Virgin Media’s
Mailer Daemon, it ‘twouldn’t drop into your mail box, Ho-Hum.
26ecce!8m2!3d51.4549089!4d-2.6278553
(I just put Bristol Suspension Bridge into Google Maps.) Thanks; looks
like a fine example. I've never actually been in one.
Is your picture very large?
I went into the camera obscura at Clifton. This would be about 1976 or
so. As I recall the screen upon which the image was cast was about 20 x
8 (feet) and painted with (rather dingy) gloss white paint. The screen
was a shallow concave shape. Above the screen was a handle which was
attached to a rod going up to where the lens mechanism sat. Turning the
handle caused the lens to rotate about a vertical axis and the viewers
below saw the image of the Clifton Gorge and its surroundings pan slowly
across the screen.

Mike Ruddock
Tony Smith
2020-11-17 09:59:02 UTC
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Permalink
On Tuesday, 17 November 2020 at 09:31:35 UTC, ***@btinternet.com wrote:

<snipped>

I too have been to the one at Clifton, perhaps in the '60s.

There is also one in Dumfries, I believe.

Tony
Nick Odell
2020-11-17 12:29:27 UTC
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Permalink
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:59:02 -0800 (PST), Tony Smith
Post by Tony Smith
<snipped>
I too have been to the one at Clifton, perhaps in the '60s.
There is also one in Dumfries, I believe.
...and one on the top floor of the National Media Museum(1)in Bradford
too.

Nick
(1)Or whatever they are calling it this week.
Penny
2020-11-17 23:27:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:29:27 -0300, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:59:02 -0800 (PST), Tony Smith
Post by Tony Smith
<snipped>
I too have been to the one at Clifton, perhaps in the '60s.
There is also one in Dumfries, I believe.
...and one on the top floor of the National Media Museum(1)in Bradford
too.
Nick
(1)Or whatever they are calling it this week.
...and one at Dartington Hall - bro#1 made a short film (he only makes
short films) using it, about 20 years ago, there's a clip on
vimeo.com/tonyhillfilms/albums
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Anne B
2020-11-17 13:02:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Smith
<snipped>
I too have been to the one at Clifton, perhaps in the '60s.
There is also one in Dumfries, I believe.
Tony
I was in the one at Clifton in 2017, and I've been in the one in
Edinburgh and the one at Kirriemuir, but not the one in Dumfries.

Anne B
Penny
2020-11-13 23:34:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 12:17:37 +0000, Vicky Ayech <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?

I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
krw
2020-11-13 23:51:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I have been called for jury service twice. I served on one jury each
time. The first time the jury felt that the police evidence was
inadequate and found the individual not guilty on the main charge but
guilty on the far less serious second charge; better evidence might well
have led to a complete conviction (well I thought he was guilty) but no
doubt the reason we were there was because he felt he could argue enough
of a gap.

The second one was related to drugs and we had several hours of evidence
being presented by the prosecution about events and an allegation that
the individual was the member of a "group". Overnight I had a look
online at the what the law actually said on this matter and whilst I
suspected we were not being told the whole story for some reason it was
also my feeling that what we had been told did not meet the content of
the law as written. I was wondering what to do but the next morning was
a bit of a surprise. The judge had obviously had a discussion with the
barristers and the accused was discharged and released. She then felt
that there was a need both to explain to the jury that she could not see
that the evidence supported the charge and then with what seemed like
restrained fury told the prosecuting barrister that his case was
completely out of order and should never have been brought before her -
also directing her ire at the CPS solicitor. Clearly she knew more than
we did - but to give a barrister a public dressing down was hard to believe!
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Marmaduke Jinks
2020-11-14 09:07:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I have been called for jury service twice. I served on one jury each
time. The first time the jury felt that the police evidence was
inadequate and found the individual not guilty on the main charge but
guilty on the far less serious second charge; better evidence might well
have led to a complete conviction (well I thought he was guilty) but no
doubt the reason we were there was because he felt he could argue enough
of a gap.
The second one was related to drugs and we had several hours of evidence
being presented by the prosecution about events and an allegation that the
individual was the member of a "group". Overnight I had a look online at
the what the law actually said on this matter and whilst I suspected we
were not being told the whole story for some reason it was also my feeling
that what we had been told did not meet the content of the law as written.
I was wondering what to do but the next morning was a bit of a surprise.
The judge had obviously had a discussion with the barristers and the
accused was discharged and released. She then felt that there was a need
both to explain to the jury that she could not see that the evidence
supported the charge and then with what seemed like restrained fury told
the prosecuting barrister that his case was completely out of order and
should never have been brought before her - also directing her ire at the
CPS solicitor. Clearly she knew more than we did - but to give a
barrister a public dressing down was hard to believe!
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
I too was called for jury service in a case involving "handling" of stolen
goods. In jury discussions we thought the case as presented was pretty weak
and there difficulties in following it. Our decision was not guilty. As the
foreman gave our verdict the Judge made a "harumphing" noise. Then imagine
our surprise as we were told to keep our seats as 2 people were lead in
having been found guilty for stealing (the source crime) and were then
sentenced - our "accused" walked free. I imagine that if the case had been
presented to us in a more coherent way we might have found our accused
guilty.

MJ
John Ashby
2020-11-14 09:25:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marmaduke Jinks
Post by krw
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I have been called for jury service twice. I served on one jury each
time. The first time the jury felt that the police evidence was
inadequate and found the individual not guilty on the main charge but
guilty on the far less serious second charge; better evidence might well
have led to a complete conviction (well I thought he was guilty) but no
doubt the reason we were there was because he felt he could argue enough
of a gap.
The second one was related to drugs and we had several hours of evidence
being presented by the prosecution about events and an allegation that the
individual was the member of a "group". Overnight I had a look online at
the what the law actually said on this matter and whilst I suspected we
were not being told the whole story for some reason it was also my feeling
that what we had been told did not meet the content of the law as written.
I was wondering what to do but the next morning was a bit of a surprise.
The judge had obviously had a discussion with the barristers and the
accused was discharged and released. She then felt that there was a need
both to explain to the jury that she could not see that the evidence
supported the charge and then with what seemed like restrained fury told
the prosecuting barrister that his case was completely out of order and
should never have been brought before her - also directing her ire at the
CPS solicitor. Clearly she knew more than we did - but to give a
barrister a public dressing down was hard to believe!
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
I too was called for jury service in a case involving "handling" of stolen
goods. In jury discussions we thought the case as presented was pretty weak
and there difficulties in following it. Our decision was not guilty. As the
foreman gave our verdict the Judge made a "harumphing" noise. Then imagine
our surprise as we were told to keep our seats as 2 people were lead in
having been found guilty for stealing (the source crime) and were then
sentenced - our "accused" walked free. I imagine that if the case had been
presented to us in a more coherent way we might have found our accused
guilty.
MJ
Depending on which side of the Daily Mail/Guardian div^H^H^Hchasm you
sit this is either a gross miscarriage of justice or the system working
as it should.

In my case two brothers were accused of GBH. On the balance of
probablities they were guilty but the case against one was much weaker
than the other, so one walked because of reasonable doubt and one was
sent down. I sometimes wonder what havoc that decision went on to cause
on the streets of Cardiff, but I still think it was the correct decision.

john
Marmaduke Jinks
2020-11-15 23:42:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marmaduke Jinks
Post by krw
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I have been called for jury service twice. I served on one jury each
time. The first time the jury felt that the police evidence was
inadequate and found the individual not guilty on the main charge but
guilty on the far less serious second charge; better evidence might well
have led to a complete conviction (well I thought he was guilty) but no
doubt the reason we were there was because he felt he could argue enough
of a gap.
The second one was related to drugs and we had several hours of evidence
being presented by the prosecution about events and an allegation that the
individual was the member of a "group". Overnight I had a look online at
the what the law actually said on this matter and whilst I suspected we
were not being told the whole story for some reason it was also my feeling
that what we had been told did not meet the content of the law as written.
I was wondering what to do but the next morning was a bit of a surprise.
The judge had obviously had a discussion with the barristers and the
accused was discharged and released. She then felt that there was a need
both to explain to the jury that she could not see that the evidence
supported the charge and then with what seemed like restrained fury told
the prosecuting barrister that his case was completely out of order and
should never have been brought before her - also directing her ire at the
CPS solicitor. Clearly she knew more than we did - but to give a
barrister a public dressing down was hard to believe!
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
I too was called for jury service in a case involving "handling" of stolen
goods. In jury discussions we thought the case as presented was pretty weak
and there difficulties in following it. Our decision was not guilty. As the
foreman gave our verdict the Judge made a "harumphing" noise. Then imagine
our surprise as we were told to keep our seats as 2 people were lead in
having been found guilty for stealing (the source crime) and were then
sentenced - our "accused" walked free. I imagine that if the case had been
presented to us in a more coherent way we might have found our accused
guilty.
MJ
Depending on which side of the Daily Mail/Guardian div^H^H^Hchasm you sit
this is either a gross miscarriage of justice or the system working as it
should.
In my case two brothers were accused of GBH. On the balance of
probablities they were guilty but the case against one was much weaker
than the other, so one walked because of reasonable doubt and one was sent
down. I sometimes wonder what havoc that decision went on to cause on the
streets of Cardiff, but I still think it was the correct decision.
john
Afterwards, in "my" case my thoughts went this way. They knew that 2 had
already been found guilty of stealing. Here was the guy who fenced it.
Couldn't they have explained it better for us as the jury. After all, he
had "fenced" their stolen goods. My remembrance is a bit hazy and perhaps he
had a good barrister. But no good prosecution was presented where A led to
B then to C.

MJ
Philip Hole
2020-11-14 10:57:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I have been called for jury service twice.  I served on one jury each
time.  The first time the jury felt that the police evidence was
inadequate and found the individual not guilty on the main charge but
guilty on the far less serious second charge; better evidence might well
have led to a complete conviction (well I thought he was guilty) but no
doubt the reason we were there was because he felt he could argue enough
of a gap.
The second one was related to drugs and we had several hours of evidence
being presented by the prosecution about events and an allegation that
the individual was the member of a "group".  Overnight I had a look
online at the what the law actually said on this matter and whilst I
suspected we were not being told the whole story for some reason it was
also my feeling that what we had been told did not meet the content of
the law as written.  I was wondering what to do but the next morning was
a bit of a surprise.  The judge had obviously had a discussion with the
barristers and the accused was discharged and released.  She then felt
that there was a need both to explain to the jury that she could not see
that the evidence supported the charge and then with what seemed like
restrained fury told the prosecuting barrister that his case was
completely out of order and should never have been brought before her -
also directing her ire at the CPS solicitor.  Clearly she knew more than
we did - but to give a barrister a public dressing down was hard to believe!
Called twice with two cases each.

Jury service is absolutely fascinating as a window on two contrasting
social statuses.

The wealthy barrister and judge against a poor, uneducated criminal.

First time, first case:

Officer 1 asked how they apprehended the thief -
"We pulled up beside him and asked him to accompany us to the station."

Officer 2 - "We grabbed him and pushed him up against a wall".

Not withstanding other differences, the man was found guilty. Although
the two Boom boxes was a bit of a give away.

First time, second case:

A, B, C and D were drinking at A's house.

At some point, A went to bed and the others carried on.

B (A's wife) passed out and C was accused of raping her.

A lot of discussion took place about how drunk they all were.

Found guilty.

The elephant in the room was that there was never any mention of D
during the whole case.


Second time, first case:

Accused was thought to have been sending emails to himself. These were
allegedly from a third party and they demonstrated the innocence of the
accused.

The jury was given a summary of all the emails.

One of the jury asked if the original emails still existed.

Expert IT witness - "They were".

"Have you compared the headers of all the emails?".

"I wasn't asked to".


Second time, second case:

Had to bring our own lunches which were stored in our lockers in the
assembly room.

We had to stay in the jury room for four hours whilst lawyers debated.

Starved.


Final comment. Think of it as the army. Never volunteer.

We had done ten days on one case so there was only two days left of our
two week stint.

OK, I could do two more. Several (especially the self-employed) wanted
to get away ASAP.

Did my two days but then the case went on for another week :-(
--
Flop
Anne B
2020-11-13 23:58:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I've been cited several times, but on all but one of those occasions I
got a phone call the day before saying the accused had changed his/her
plea to guilty so the trial would not be going ahead.

The last time I turned up as instructed, because I could not ask to be
excused on any of the grounds that would be accepted. There were many
more people than the 15 needed for the jury - maybe 50 or 60. They drew
lots and came up with 15 names (including me). The defence challenged
one or two, and they were discharged and more names were taken out of
the hat. We were asked to tell the clerk if there was a reason why we
should not serve, for example if we were acquainted with the accused or
any of the witnesses. Some more people were discharged and more names
drawn. Eventually it boiled down to 15 people who could not be objected
to and who could not be excused, including me. The rest of the people
cited were told they could go, but might be called again. I was more
than a little peeved because I was just 6 weeks short of a birthday that
would have allowed me to refuse to serve!

It was all pretty tedious. We had to watch and listen to a witness, and
then retire to the jury room while 'legal matters' were gone through in
the courtroom. Then troop back in and hear another witness, then retire
again, and so on all day for 3 days. We weren't allowed out for lunch or
anything, but we were allowed to go home at night, under strict
instructions not to discuss the case with anyone. They kept us supplied
with food, tea, coffee etc, and eventually we insisted on being allowed
to go to the back door for some air because it got very stuffy in the
jury room. After all the evidence the Sheriff gave us a lecture on the
points of law involved, and we retired yet again, elected a spokesman
and decided on a verdict.

Having done so, we were told that we would not be called again for x
years. I forget how many x is because as long as it was more than 5
weeks it was of no further interest to me.

Anne
Penny
2020-11-14 08:36:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 23:58:15 +0000, Anne B <***@btinternet.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Anne B
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I've been cited several times, but on all but one of those occasions I
got a phone call the day before saying the accused had changed his/her
plea to guilty so the trial would not be going ahead.
It seems odd to me that some people get called several times and others
never get called at all.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Sam Plusnet
2020-11-14 19:01:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Anne B
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I've been cited several times, but on all but one of those occasions I
got a phone call the day before saying the accused had changed his/her
plea to guilty so the trial would not be going ahead.
It seems odd to me that some people get called several times and others
never get called at all.
That's random for you (I'm pretty sure they no longer stick a pin in a
copy of the electoral register & use something a tad more high tech).

I've been called once, & served on three juries during my 'call up'
period.
Perhaps it will be another 40-odd years before I'm called up again.
--
Sam Plusnet
Mike McMillan
2020-11-14 08:39:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anne B
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I've been cited several times, but on all but one of those occasions I
got a phone call the day before saying the accused had changed his/her
plea to guilty so the trial would not be going ahead.
The last time I turned up as instructed, because I could not ask to be
excused on any of the grounds that would be accepted. There were many
more people than the 15 needed for the jury - maybe 50 or 60. They drew
lots and came up with 15 names (including me). The defence challenged
one or two, and they were discharged and more names were taken out of
the hat. We were asked to tell the clerk if there was a reason why we
should not serve, for example if we were acquainted with the accused or
any of the witnesses. Some more people were discharged and more names
drawn. Eventually it boiled down to 15 people who could not be objected
to and who could not be excused, including me. The rest of the people
cited were told they could go, but might be called again. I was more
than a little peeved because I was just 6 weeks short of a birthday that
would have allowed me to refuse to serve!
It was all pretty tedious. We had to watch and listen to a witness, and
then retire to the jury room while 'legal matters' were gone through in
the courtroom. Then troop back in and hear another witness, then retire
again, and so on all day for 3 days. We weren't allowed out for lunch or
anything, but we were allowed to go home at night, under strict
instructions not to discuss the case with anyone. They kept us supplied
with food, tea, coffee etc, and eventually we insisted on being allowed
to go to the back door for some air because it got very stuffy in the
jury room. After all the evidence the Sheriff gave us a lecture on the
points of law involved, and we retired yet again, elected a spokesman
and decided on a verdict.
Having done so, we were told that we would not be called again for x
years. I forget how many x is because as long as it was more than 5
weeks it was of no further interest to me.
Anne
I’ve never been called and, having reached the ripe old age of 73 years,
doubt that I need concern myself of the likelihood in the future.
--
Toodle Pip (My other iPad is an old Pro)
Jenny M Benson
2020-11-14 10:36:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike McMillan
I’ve never been called and, having reached the ripe old age of 73 years,
doubt that I need concern myself of the likelihood in the future.
As I've only got 40 more qualifying days, I can probably concern myself
even less! (I hope we're not tempting fate!)
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
Sam Plusnet
2020-11-14 19:03:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Mike McMillan
I’ve never been called and, having reached the ripe old age of 73 years,
doubt that I need concern myself of the likelihood in the future.
As I've only got 40 more qualifying days, I can probably concern myself
even less!  (I hope we're not tempting fate!)
Since they would have to give you some advance warning, & suspect you're
pretty safe already.
--
Sam Plusnet
Vicky Ayech
2020-11-14 10:25:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
4 occasions. And at least one person said 5. I've never been called.
Still a year to go apparently. It goes to 76
Anne B
2020-11-14 10:31:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
4 occasions. And at least one person said 5. I've never been called.
Still a year to go apparently. It goes to 76
In Scotland, you are excused at a younger age than 76.

Anne B
Peter
2020-11-14 18:51:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
Randomly from the electoral register.
--
When, once, reference was made to a statesman almost universally
recognized as one of the villains of this century, in order to
induce him to a negative judgment, he replied: "My situation is
so different from his, that it is not for me to pass judgment".
Ernst Specker on Paul Bernays
Kate B
2020-11-15 15:00:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Vicky Ayech
Someone asked who had done it as they had 4 times
Did they really mean they had been called on 4 separate occasions, or that
they sat on 4 cases during their one service?
I only know a couple of people who have been called for jury service and
one of those was dismissed without being part of a jury. How are people
selected?
I have only been called once, just before Easter one year. Sat in the
jury room and read and wrote and read again for three days, then got
called up for a case of shoplifting in Oxford Street, which was stopped
when the policeman said 'I knew he was a wrong'un from the start'. We
sat around for a while and then it was declared a mistrial and we went
back to the jury room, where I sat for another couple of days and then
was sent home because it was Easter, and was not called back again. It
was all very boring and unimpressive. But I was extremely relieved that
it was over so soon because, being freelance, I was deeply anxious that
a job would come up and I wouldn't be able to get off jury service if I
was in the middle of some long drawn-out trial.
--
Kate B
London
Tony Smith
2020-11-15 21:56:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Mysteriously, the voters' lists are not made up simultaneously in England and Northern Ireland. One year we were in each area on the respective magic day. Although we had ticked some box to say our Belfast location was not our normal address, we were put on both lists and they tried to call my wife up for jury service in Belfast. We successfully challenged whether our names should have been on the Belfast list.
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