Discussion:
Ask EU: Low eneergy lights and time machines
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Captain Paralytic
2008-03-17 11:10:18 UTC
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I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs for my dining room as
the lights in there tend to stay on for quite a time.

But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.

How do others cope with this?
ted msn
2008-03-17 12:06:24 UTC
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Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs for my dining room as
the lights in there tend to stay on for quite a time.
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Move the new lights to the bedroom(s)! Its much nicer to wake up with a low
light that gets brighter over time. Then get some new CFL that have a very
short warmup and put those in the dining room.
HTH
ted
Captain Paralytic
2008-03-17 12:18:05 UTC
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Post by ted msn
Post by Captain Paralytic
the lights in there tend to stay on for quite a time.
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Move the new lights to the bedroom(s)! Its much nicer to wake up with a low
light that gets brighter over time. Then get some new CFL that have a very
short warmup and put those in the dining room.
HTH
ted
But these are new. I only just bought 'em!
Jenny M Benson
2008-03-17 12:10:05 UTC
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In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs
I almost wish I was in the position of needing to buy them. I keep
getting sent them and have accumulated a stock of almost embarrassing
proportions. I've even turned down at least one offer of more free
ones.
Post by Captain Paralytic
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to reach
full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from a
cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see well
enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Put the light on, curse because I forgot it was a waste of time doing so
and grope in the gloom for what I went in for.
--
Jenny
"I always like to have the morning well-aired before I get up."
(Beau Brummel, 1778-1840)
Jo Lonergan
2008-03-17 16:11:48 UTC
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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:10:05 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs
I almost wish I was in the position of needing to buy them. I keep
getting sent them and have accumulated a stock of almost embarrassing
proportions. I've even turned down at least one offer of more free
ones.
Post by Captain Paralytic
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to reach
full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from a
cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see well
enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Put the light on, curse because I forgot it was a waste of time doing so
and grope in the gloom for what I went in for.
Same here, plus "make a mental note to stock up on normal bulbs before
they're banned".
--
Jo
Plusnet
2008-03-17 17:30:50 UTC
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Post by Jo Lonergan
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:10:05 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs
I almost wish I was in the position of needing to buy them. I keep
getting sent them and have accumulated a stock of almost embarrassing
proportions. I've even turned down at least one offer of more free
ones.
Post by Captain Paralytic
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to reach
full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from a
cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see well
enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Put the light on, curse because I forgot it was a waste of time doing so
and grope in the gloom for what I went in for.
Same here, plus "make a mental note to stock up on normal bulbs before
they're banned".
I like the idea of low energy lighting but this is a serious drawback.

I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.

Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
--
Sam
chris mcmillan
2008-03-17 20:43:14 UTC
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Post by Plusnet
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:10:05 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs
I almost wish I was in the position of needing to buy them. I keep
getting sent them and have accumulated a stock of almost embarrassing
proportions. I've even turned down at least one offer of more free
ones.
I like the idea of low energy lighting but this is a serious drawback.
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Http://www.pocklington-trust.org.uk/shared_asp_files/GFSR.asp?NodeID=8985
5

or
http://tinyurl.com/yqbo2f

Is a report I read today in a particular magazine on visual impairment.
I would have preferred to give you the University of Reading's report :
they did the work but were commissioned by Thomas Pocklington. But I
can't find Rdg's report on this project.

It was a project that me and Toodles took part in (and the sun was so
bright that day that hardly any of the readings taken could be used
because the sun was brighter than any of our lighting!)

It doesn't actually tell you *where* to get things, just that we don't
know such things are out there, IYSWIM.

Sincerely Chris
--
Chris McMillan
http://www.chinavision.org.uk/
http://www.oneplusone.org.cn 
Nick
2008-03-17 20:56:43 UTC
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Post by Plusnet
I like the idea of low energy lighting but this is a serious drawback.
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
That's what we have the in main living room. The lights in the centre
of the room are tungsten, and light the room up brightly and quickly for
when you want that sort of light. They tend only to be on for half an
hour at a time.

The uplighters round the edges are CFL, and tend to be on for ages when
whatching TV, computing etc.
Plusnet
2008-03-17 23:33:45 UTC
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In article <***@mid.individual.net>, 1-***@temporary-
address.org.uk says...
Post by Nick
Post by Plusnet
I like the idea of low energy lighting but this is a serious drawback.
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
That's what we have the in main living room. The lights in the centre
of the room are tungsten, and light the room up brightly and quickly for
when you want that sort of light. They tend only to be on for half an
hour at a time.
The uplighters round the edges are CFL, and tend to be on for ages when
whatching TV, computing etc.
That would be my approach, but my better half demands that every light
possible is switched on & then still complains about the gloom.
--
Sam
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-18 00:28:30 UTC
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In message <***@usenet.plus.net>, Plusnet
<***@home.com> writes
[]
Post by Plusnet
Post by Nick
The uplighters round the edges are CFL, and tend to be on for ages when
whatching TV, computing etc.
The uplighters in this lounge - four off - are two of each sort; they
were thus when I bought the house a year ago (tomorrow). I don't really
notice - looking now, the ones I think are the fluorescents are
definitely brighter, but then they've been on for hours.
Post by Plusnet
That would be my approach, but my better half demands that every light
possible is switched on & then still complains about the gloom.
My friend Len's house has ordinary (four-foot I think) tubes throughout;
to me, it's lovely and light. Some people would probably say it's
unsightly. (His wife Pauline seems perfectly happy with it too; she's
into some sort of handicrafts that involves a sewing machine, but the
lights are not just in the sewing room.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

Often at work I wish they'd pay me what I'm worth, but sometimes I'm glad they
don't. (BrritSki, in uk.media.radio.archers, on 2000-12-25.)
Nick
2008-03-18 19:32:46 UTC
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Post by Plusnet
address.org.uk says...
Post by Nick
Post by Plusnet
I like the idea of low energy lighting but this is a serious drawback.
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
That's what we have the in main living room. The lights in the centre
of the room are tungsten, and light the room up brightly and quickly for
when you want that sort of light. They tend only to be on for half an
hour at a time.
The uplighters round the edges are CFL, and tend to be on for ages when
whatching TV, computing etc.
That would be my approach, but my better half demands that every light
possible is switched on & then still complains about the gloom.
Oh yes, when I came in from work today everybody was in the kitchen, the
centre and wall lights were on in the "hall", ditto both sets in the
living room, and also the light in the downstairs toilet.

But then I live with 3 females, and they all believe that - oh I don't
know what they believe but it doesn't involve "off".
Chris J Dixon
2008-03-18 20:10:20 UTC
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Post by Nick
Oh yes, when I came in from work today everybody was in the kitchen, the
centre and wall lights were on in the "hall", ditto both sets in the
living room, and also the light in the downstairs toilet.
We have almost entirely low energy bulbs, and don't find them too
much of a problem. However, as part of the kitchen makeover I
have accepted the proposed LV halogen spots, but only with the
proviso that they are connected via a movement detector. This
surprised the designer, but they said they will fit it if I
supply.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/59/31 M B+ G+ A L(-) I S-- CH-(--) Ar++ T+ H0 ?Q Sh+
***@cdixon.me.uk
Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.
Jo Lonergan
2008-03-18 21:14:41 UTC
Reply
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Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Nick
Oh yes, when I came in from work today everybody was in the kitchen, the
centre and wall lights were on in the "hall", ditto both sets in the
living room, and also the light in the downstairs toilet.
We have almost entirely low energy bulbs, and don't find them too
much of a problem. However, as part of the kitchen makeover I
have accepted the proposed LV halogen spots, but only with the
proviso that they are connected via a movement detector. This
surprised the designer, but they said they will fit it if I
supply.
What a good idea! It would be great in a hall, if the light went on
all on its own as you backed in with your arms full of shopping. The
only problem might be that you got used to never having to think of
turning them off.
--
Jo
Plusnet
2008-03-19 17:48:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Nick
Oh yes, when I came in from work today everybody was in the kitchen, the
centre and wall lights were on in the "hall", ditto both sets in the
living room, and also the light in the downstairs toilet.
We have almost entirely low energy bulbs, and don't find them too
much of a problem. However, as part of the kitchen makeover I
have accepted the proposed LV halogen spots, but only with the
proviso that they are connected via a movement detector. This
surprised the designer, but they said they will fit it if I
supply.
What a good idea! It would be great in a hall, if the light went on
all on its own as you backed in with your arms full of shopping. The
only problem might be that you got used to never having to think of
turning them off.
I'm so glad that people are talking about a movement detector & not a
motion detector, because the only place I've found these being used was
in the toilets at a previous place of work.

There are times when it's not appropriate to go into a song & dance
routine to keep the lights on.
--
Sam
Jenny M Benson
2008-03-19 00:29:31 UTC
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Permalink
I have accepted the proposed LV halogen spots, but only with the
proviso that they are connected via a movement detector.
A few years ago I visited a couple who had an elderly Rough Collie. The
dog chose to lie outside while we sat in the front room and I noticed
that the outside light, over the front door, was mostly switched on, but
every now and then would go out briefly, before lighting again.

This seemed odd, until I noticed that every time the light went out the
dog would move a little and relax again as the light went on!
--
Jenny
"I always like to have the morning well-aired before I get up."
(Beau Brummel, 1778-1840)
Nick Odell
2008-03-19 01:17:05 UTC
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On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:29:31 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
I have accepted the proposed LV halogen spots, but only with the
proviso that they are connected via a movement detector.
A few years ago I visited a couple who had an elderly Rough Collie. The
dog chose to lie outside while we sat in the front room and I noticed
that the outside light, over the front door, was mostly switched on, but
every now and then would go out briefly, before lighting again.
This seemed odd, until I noticed that every time the light went out the
dog would move a little and relax again as the light went on!
Hmmm. Not connected (pardon the pun) with the story of the psychic dog
in the Australian outback, I suppose?

An old lady who lived way out back of Bourke claimed that her dog was
psychic: he knew when her telephone was going to ring. He would jump
to his feet and howl and then, lo, the phone would ring.

A telephone engineer was sent to investigate. He watched the dog react
several times, nodded wisely, fixed the fault, went away and the dog
never anticipated another call again.

There was a faulty earth connection on the telephone line. The dog was
chained to the telephone post. Every time someone phoned, the ringing
voltage was sent down the line but instead of making the bell ring,
because of the faulty earth connection, it sent an electric shock
through the dog. The dog jumped up, howled with pain and peed itself.
The urine soaked into the ground, completed the earth connection so
the next ring pulse went to the telephone bell. Easy.

Nick O
--
real e-mail is nickodell (at) bigfoot (dot) com
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-18 00:14:08 UTC
Reply
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In message <***@usenet.plus.net>, Plusnet
<***@home.com> writes
[]
Post by Plusnet
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Captain Paralytic
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to reach
full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from a
cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see well
enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Put the light on, curse because I forgot it was a waste of time doing so
and grope in the gloom for what I went in for.
Indeed. Basically, use them in places where they're going to be on a
long time - in my (our, my mum did the same when alive) case, lounge
yes, bedroom maybe; hall and bathroom (where loo was) no.
Post by Plusnet
Post by Jo Lonergan
Same here, plus "make a mental note to stock up on normal bulbs before
they're banned".
Definitely. The eco-folks (etc.) do seem to have rather a high success
rate in getting things banned _before_ a suitable alternative can be
found. Lead-free solder is another one, assorted cleaning materials are
another. In the case of low-energy lightbulbs, I am particularly peeved,
because ordinary fluorescents - the sort that come in two to six foot
tubes, I mean - do not seem to have this problem; OK, a second or two's
flashing until they strike I can live with. So why can't they make curly
(or whatever) ones that behave the same? (I recently asked this
somewhere else - uk.tech.broadcast it might have been - and got a
comprehensive answer, which I've now forgotten; the principle still
applies, though, that if they can do it for one sort they should be able
to for another.)
Post by Plusnet
I like the idea of low energy lighting but this is a serious drawback.
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry that did
it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement process would be
a little more tedious).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

Often at work I wish they'd pay me what I'm worth, but sometimes I'm glad they
don't. (BrritSki, in uk.media.radio.archers, on 2000-12-25.)
Jo Lonergan
2008-03-18 11:50:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:14:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Plusnet
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry that did
it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement process would be
a little more tedious).
It's very common here to have a double switch, one half of which
controls the central light and the other anything that's plugged into
one socket of each group throughout the room. So you can turn off all
the lamps (and, I suppose, the iron etc.) when you go to bed, and turn
them all back on again in one go. In my kitchen you can turn on the
under-cabinet lights or the central light from the door, or both of
course. I've never seen such an arrangement in the UK, but it can't be
that difficult to install.
--
Jo
the Omrud
2008-03-18 12:11:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:14:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Plusnet
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry that did
it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement process would be
a little more tedious).
It's very common here to have a double switch, one half of which
controls the central light and the other anything that's plugged into
one socket of each group throughout the room. So you can turn off all
the lamps (and, I suppose, the iron etc.) when you go to bed, and turn
them all back on again in one go. In my kitchen you can turn on the
under-cabinet lights or the central light from the door, or both of
course. I've never seen such an arrangement in the UK, but it can't be
that difficult to install.
I'm guessing that "here" is France. It confuses the hell out of our
guests when they can't get the telly and DVD to work because somebody's
switched it off at the wall. I try to ensure that there's only a light
plugged into each switched socket, but people will move stuff.

It wouldn't work in the UK because of the different type of wiring used
in houses. UK lighting and socket rings are separated, have different
cables rated at different currents, and I'm sure the Regs would not
allow you to use a double switch with two separate rings. French houses
don't have ring mains - each spur is wired right back to the consumer unit.
--
David
Jo Lonergan
2008-03-18 17:52:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:14:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Plusnet
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry that did
it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement process would be
a little more tedious).
It's very common here to have a double switch, one half of which
controls the central light and the other anything that's plugged into
one socket of each group throughout the room. So you can turn off all
the lamps (and, I suppose, the iron etc.) when you go to bed, and turn
them all back on again in one go. In my kitchen you can turn on the
under-cabinet lights or the central light from the door, or both of
course. I've never seen such an arrangement in the UK, but it can't be
that difficult to install.
I'm guessing that "here" is France.
"Here" is Switzerland, so quite near. Are you a neighbour?
Post by the Omrud
It confuses the hell out of our
guests when they can't get the telly and DVD to work because somebody's
switched it off at the wall. I try to ensure that there's only a light
plugged into each switched socket, but people will move stuff.
I do like to come into a room and switch on all the lamps, without
having to bother with the central light, and to turn them all off in
one go when going to bed. Of course, these days I'm scrabbling behind
furniture turning off all the standbys, halogen lamps etc. at three
separate points, so the grand gesture wouldn't be so grand.

When I'm in England I regularly forget to switch on at the socket, so
find that, for instance, my mobile has not been charging itself up all
night. I've never been anywhere else than the UK that has this belt
and braces approach. The Swiss, with that gay abandon for which
they're so famous, even let you plug in anything you like (AFAICS) in
the bathroom.
Post by the Omrud
It wouldn't work in the UK because of the different type of wiring used
in houses. UK lighting and socket rings are separated, have different
cables rated at different currents, and I'm sure the Regs would not
allow you to use a double switch with two separate rings. French houses
don't have ring mains - each spur is wired right back to the consumer unit.
I don't know how it's done here, but it's presumably on the French
model.
--
Jo
Chris J Dixon
2008-03-18 20:13:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
I do like to come into a room and switch on all the lamps, without
having to bother with the central light, and to turn them all off in
one go when going to bed. Of course, these days I'm scrabbling behind
furniture turning off all the standbys, halogen lamps etc. at three
separate points, so the grand gesture wouldn't be so grand.
A set of remote control sockets could make this easier
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=42504&doy=18m11

I guess other national variants are available.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/59/31 M B+ G+ A L(-) I S-- CH-(--) Ar++ T+ H0 ?Q Sh+
***@cdixon.me.uk
Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.
the Omrud
2008-03-18 23:02:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:14:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Plusnet
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry that did
it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement process would be
a little more tedious).
It's very common here to have a double switch, one half of which
controls the central light and the other anything that's plugged into
one socket of each group throughout the room. So you can turn off all
the lamps (and, I suppose, the iron etc.) when you go to bed, and turn
them all back on again in one go. In my kitchen you can turn on the
under-cabinet lights or the central light from the door, or both of
course. I've never seen such an arrangement in the UK, but it can't be
that difficult to install.
I'm guessing that "here" is France.
"Here" is Switzerland, so quite near. Are you a neighbour?
Not really - we have two homes in France, but they are both far from
Switzerland. A holiday villa in a village near Perpignan, and an
as-yet-not-fully-renovated barn in a village in the Limousin.

However, we live in Cheshire and only visit occasionally 'cos of one of
us (not me) being a teacher. We will, however, be off to the Limousin
for Easter, to gaze at the renovation progress and choose the bathroom
fittings.
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by the Omrud
It confuses the hell out of our
guests when they can't get the telly and DVD to work because somebody's
switched it off at the wall. I try to ensure that there's only a light
plugged into each switched socket, but people will move stuff.
I do like to come into a room and switch on all the lamps, without
having to bother with the central light, and to turn them all off in
one go when going to bed. Of course, these days I'm scrabbling behind
furniture turning off all the standbys, halogen lamps etc. at three
separate points, so the grand gesture wouldn't be so grand.
When I'm in England I regularly forget to switch on at the socket, so
find that, for instance, my mobile has not been charging itself up all
night. I've never been anywhere else than the UK that has this belt
and braces approach. The Swiss, with that gay abandon for which
they're so famous, even let you plug in anything you like (AFAICS) in
the bathroom.
France, also. Makes us nervous that you can plug in a hairdryer and
drop it straight into the bath or sink.
--
David
carolet
2008-03-18 23:23:17 UTC
Reply
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Post by the Omrud
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:14:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Plusnet
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten
filament lighting for a quick response & another with low energy
lamps for long term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about
with twice as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry
that did it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement
process would be a little more tedious).
It's very common here to have a double switch, one half of which
controls the central light and the other anything that's plugged
into one socket of each group throughout the room. So you can turn
off all the lamps (and, I suppose, the iron etc.) when you go to
bed, and turn them all back on again in one go. In my kitchen you
can turn on the under-cabinet lights or the central light from the
door, or both of course. I've never seen such an arrangement in
the UK, but it can't be that difficult to install.
I'm guessing that "here" is France.
"Here" is Switzerland, so quite near. Are you a neighbour?
Not really - we have two homes in France, but they are both far from
Switzerland. A holiday villa in a village near Perpignan, and an
as-yet-not-fully-renovated barn in a village in the Limousin.
However, we live in Cheshire and only visit occasionally 'cos of one
of us (not me) being a teacher. We will, however, be off to the
Limousin for Easter, to gaze at the renovation progress and choose
the bathroom fittings.
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by the Omrud
It confuses the hell out of our
guests when they can't get the telly and DVD to work because
somebody's switched it off at the wall. I try to ensure that
there's only a light plugged into each switched socket, but people
will move stuff.
I do like to come into a room and switch on all the lamps, without
having to bother with the central light, and to turn them all off in
one go when going to bed. Of course, these days I'm scrabbling behind
furniture turning off all the standbys, halogen lamps etc. at three
separate points, so the grand gesture wouldn't be so grand.
When I'm in England I regularly forget to switch on at the socket, so
find that, for instance, my mobile has not been charging itself up
all night. I've never been anywhere else than the UK that has this
belt and braces approach. The Swiss, with that gay abandon for which
they're so famous, even let you plug in anything you like (AFAICS) in
the bathroom.
France, also. Makes us nervous that you can plug in a hairdryer and
drop it straight into the bath or sink.
Are there any statistics on how many people do that, or otherwise
electrocute themselves in French or Swiss bathrooms? And how does this
compare with a similar statistic for British bathrooms?
--
CaroleT
Penny
2008-03-18 23:29:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:23:17 -0000, "carolet"
Post by carolet
Post by the Omrud
France, also. Makes us nervous that you can plug in a hairdryer and
drop it straight into the bath or sink.
Are there any statistics on how many people do that, or otherwise
electrocute themselves in French or Swiss bathrooms? And how does this
compare with a similar statistic for British bathrooms?
I don't know any statistics but seem to remember meeting sockets in
bathrooms in Australia too.
--
Penny
Laughter is the dance of the spirit and the music of the soul.
umra Nicknames & Abbreviations http://www.umra.freeuk.com/nicks.html
Jenny M Benson
2008-03-19 00:34:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by carolet
Are there any statistics on how many people do that, or otherwise
electrocute themselves in French or Swiss bathrooms? And how does this
compare with a similar statistic for British bathrooms?
Mum bought a flat with a shower in the bathroom, which she knew she
would never use and she wanted to stand her twin-tub washing machine in
the shower tray. The electrician was not keen, but agreed provided the
wiring was such that the machine had to be switched on from a switch
outside the bathroom.

It turned out that someone who worked for him had a washing machine in
the bathroom, or something similar, and had been electrocuted and died.
--
Jenny
"I always like to have the morning well-aired before I get up."
(Beau Brummel, 1778-1840)
Jo Lonergan
2008-03-19 01:05:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:34:07 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by carolet
Are there any statistics on how many people do that, or otherwise
electrocute themselves in French or Swiss bathrooms? And how does this
compare with a similar statistic for British bathrooms?
Mum bought a flat with a shower in the bathroom, which she knew she
would never use and she wanted to stand her twin-tub washing machine in
the shower tray. The electrician was not keen, but agreed provided the
wiring was such that the machine had to be switched on from a switch
outside the bathroom.
It turned out that someone who worked for him had a washing machine in
the bathroom, or something similar, and had been electrocuted and died.
If the person had been an electrician you'd have thought he'd know how
to do it safely.

IMO a bathroom is a more logical place to have the washing machine
than a kitchen [1]. My newly created [2] shower room has the washing
machine and tumbler in it, right beside the shower. Their cables
vanish into the wall under a sort of cover, rather than ending in
plugs, so I presume they are plugged in at some deeper and safer
level.
--
Jo

[1] in Australia, or at least in South Australia, you're not allowed
to have it in the kitchen
[2] not by me, or I might know more about how it works
BrritSki
2008-03-19 08:13:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:34:07 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by carolet
Are there any statistics on how many people do that, or otherwise
electrocute themselves in French or Swiss bathrooms? And how does this
compare with a similar statistic for British bathrooms?
Mum bought a flat with a shower in the bathroom, which she knew she
would never use and she wanted to stand her twin-tub washing machine in
the shower tray. The electrician was not keen, but agreed provided the
wiring was such that the machine had to be switched on from a switch
outside the bathroom.
It turned out that someone who worked for him had a washing machine in
the bathroom, or something similar, and had been electrocuted and died.
If the person had been an electrician you'd have thought he'd know how
to do it safely.
IMO a bathroom is a more logical place to have the washing machine
than a kitchen
YANAOU. Our slimline top-loader is in the bathroom, with the laundry
basket right next to it.
Al Menzies
2008-03-19 11:54:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:34:07 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by carolet
Are there any statistics on how many people do that, or otherwise
electrocute themselves in French or Swiss bathrooms? And how does this
compare with a similar statistic for British bathrooms?
Mum bought a flat with a shower in the bathroom, which she knew she
would never use and she wanted to stand her twin-tub washing machine in
the shower tray. The electrician was not keen, but agreed provided the
wiring was such that the machine had to be switched on from a switch
outside the bathroom.
It turned out that someone who worked for him had a washing machine in
the bathroom, or something similar, and had been electrocuted and died.
It's normal to have the washing machine in the bathroom in Greece. In
the flat I have been using for the last three years, mine was
connected to the electricity by a dodgy old extension lead. Also
normal for Greece.
--
al
LSM
Licensed to flame
Al Menzies
2008-03-19 11:56:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:34:07 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by carolet
Are there any statistics on how many people do that, or otherwise
electrocute themselves in French or Swiss bathrooms? And how does this
compare with a similar statistic for British bathrooms?
Mum bought a flat with a shower in the bathroom, which she knew she
would never use and she wanted to stand her twin-tub washing machine in
the shower tray. The electrician was not keen, but agreed provided the
wiring was such that the machine had to be switched on from a switch
outside the bathroom.
It turned out that someone who worked for him had a washing machine in
the bathroom, or something similar, and had been electrocuted and died.
It's normal to have the washing machine in the bathroom in Greece. In
the flat I have been using for the last three years, mine was
connected to the electricity by a dodgy old extension lead. Also
normal for Greece.
Oh, and I forgot to mention, ther was a power point directly over the
kitchen sink!
--
al
LSM
Licensed to flame
Captain Paralytic
2008-03-19 12:19:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Al Menzies
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:34:07 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by carolet
Are there any statistics on how many people do that, or otherwise
electrocute themselves in French or Swiss bathrooms? And how does this
compare with a similar statistic for British bathrooms?
Mum bought a flat with a shower in the bathroom, which she knew she
would never use and she wanted to stand her twin-tub washing machine in
the shower tray. The electrician was not keen, but agreed provided the
wiring was such that the machine had to be switched on from a switch
outside the bathroom.
It turned out that someone who worked for him had a washing machine in
the bathroom, or something similar, and had been electrocuted and died.
It's normal to have the washing machine in the bathroom in Greece. In
the flat I have been using for the last three years, mine was
connected to the electricity by a dodgy old extension lead. Also
normal for Greece.
Oh, and I forgot to mention, ther was a power point directly over the
kitchen sink!
--
al
LSM
Licensed to flame
But in the UK we like the challenge of having to visit 3 different
supermarket checkouts so we can buy enough paracetamol to kill
ourselves.
Gumrat
2008-03-19 08:09:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by carolet
Post by the Omrud
Post by Jo Lonergan
When I'm in England I regularly forget to switch on at the socket, so
find that, for instance, my mobile has not been charging itself up
all night. I've never been anywhere else than the UK that has this
belt and braces approach. The Swiss, with that gay abandon for which
they're so famous, even let you plug in anything you like (AFAICS) in
the bathroom.
France, also. Makes us nervous that you can plug in a hairdryer and
drop it straight into the bath or sink.
Are there any statistics on how many people do that, or otherwise
electrocute themselves in French or Swiss bathrooms? And how does this
compare with a similar statistic for British bathrooms?
I always remember that Clo-Clo (Claude François, French "pop" star of
the Sixties and Seventies, author of "Comme d'Habitude", the original of
"My Way") electrocuted himself when changing a light bulb whilst
standing in the bath.

Don't know what that did to the statistics..
--
Tout de bonbon,
Anne, Seriously, Traditionally Built Curvey Gumrat
Linda Fox
2008-03-19 09:18:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gumrat
I always remember that Clo-Clo (Claude François, French "pop" star of
the Sixties and Seventies, author of "Comme d'Habitude", the original of
"My Way") electrocuted himself when changing a light bulb whilst
standing in the bath.
Don't know what that did to the statistics..
Increased the Number Of French "Pop" Stars Needed To Change A Light
Bulb, perhaps?

lff
Plusnet
2008-03-19 17:55:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Linda Fox
Post by Gumrat
I always remember that Clo-Clo (Claude François, French "pop" star of
the Sixties and Seventies, author of "Comme d'Habitude", the original of
"My Way") electrocuted himself when changing a light bulb whilst
standing in the bath.
Don't know what that did to the statistics..
Increased the Number Of French "Pop" Stars Needed To Change A Light
Bulb, perhaps?
Probably tripled sales of his records.
--
Sam
Rosalind Mitchell
2008-03-19 08:48:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:14:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Plusnet
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten
filament lighting for a quick response & another with low energy
lamps for long term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with
twice as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry that
did it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement process
would be a little more tedious).
It's very common here to have a double switch, one half of which
controls the central light and the other anything that's plugged into
one socket of each group throughout the room. So you can turn off all
the lamps (and, I suppose, the iron etc.) when you go to bed, and turn
them all back on again in one go. In my kitchen you can turn on the
under-cabinet lights or the central light from the door, or both of
course. I've never seen such an arrangement in the UK, but it can't be
that difficult to install.
I'm guessing that "here" is France.
"Here" is Switzerland, so quite near. Are you a neighbour?
Not really - we have two homes in France, but they are both far from
Switzerland. A holiday villa in a village near Perpignan, and an
as-yet-not-fully-renovated barn in a village in the Limousin.
However, we live in Cheshire and only visit occasionally 'cos of one of
us (not me) being a teacher. We will, however, be off to the Limousin
for Easter, to gaze at the renovation progress and choose the bathroom
fittings.
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by the Omrud
It confuses the hell out of our
guests when they can't get the telly and DVD to work because somebody's
switched it off at the wall. I try to ensure that there's only a light
plugged into each switched socket, but people will move stuff.
I do like to come into a room and switch on all the lamps, without
having to bother with the central light, and to turn them all off in
one go when going to bed. Of course, these days I'm scrabbling behind
furniture turning off all the standbys, halogen lamps etc. at three
separate points, so the grand gesture wouldn't be so grand.
When I'm in England I regularly forget to switch on at the socket, so
find that, for instance, my mobile has not been charging itself up all
night. I've never been anywhere else than the UK that has this belt
and braces approach. The Swiss, with that gay abandon for which
they're so famous, even let you plug in anything you like (AFAICS) in
the bathroom.
France, also. Makes us nervous that you can plug in a hairdryer and
drop it straight into the bath or sink.
In the UK you can take a 15cm cook's knife from the rack and disembowel
yourself with it, but that doesn't mean there should be a prohibition on
knives in the kitchen, does it?

Should people be protected from their own stupidity?

Rosiw
--
Currently Reading: INDRIĐASON, ARNALDUR: Silence of the Grave (Grafarpögn)
Bye bye Livejournal - keep up with my wibblings at Enitharmon's Cave:
http://enitharmon.wordpress.com
the Omrud
2008-03-19 09:19:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rosalind Mitchell
Post by the Omrud
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:14:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Plusnet
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten
filament lighting for a quick response & another with low energy
lamps for long term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with
twice as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry that
did it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement process
would be a little more tedious).
It's very common here to have a double switch, one half of which
controls the central light and the other anything that's plugged into
one socket of each group throughout the room. So you can turn off all
the lamps (and, I suppose, the iron etc.) when you go to bed, and turn
them all back on again in one go. In my kitchen you can turn on the
under-cabinet lights or the central light from the door, or both of
course. I've never seen such an arrangement in the UK, but it can't be
that difficult to install.
I'm guessing that "here" is France.
"Here" is Switzerland, so quite near. Are you a neighbour?
Not really - we have two homes in France, but they are both far from
Switzerland. A holiday villa in a village near Perpignan, and an
as-yet-not-fully-renovated barn in a village in the Limousin.
However, we live in Cheshire and only visit occasionally 'cos of one of
us (not me) being a teacher. We will, however, be off to the Limousin
for Easter, to gaze at the renovation progress and choose the bathroom
fittings.
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by the Omrud
It confuses the hell out of our
guests when they can't get the telly and DVD to work because somebody's
switched it off at the wall. I try to ensure that there's only a light
plugged into each switched socket, but people will move stuff.
I do like to come into a room and switch on all the lamps, without
having to bother with the central light, and to turn them all off in
one go when going to bed. Of course, these days I'm scrabbling behind
furniture turning off all the standbys, halogen lamps etc. at three
separate points, so the grand gesture wouldn't be so grand.
When I'm in England I regularly forget to switch on at the socket, so
find that, for instance, my mobile has not been charging itself up all
night. I've never been anywhere else than the UK that has this belt
and braces approach. The Swiss, with that gay abandon for which
they're so famous, even let you plug in anything you like (AFAICS) in
the bathroom.
France, also. Makes us nervous that you can plug in a hairdryer and
drop it straight into the bath or sink.
In the UK you can take a 15cm cook's knife from the rack and disembowel
yourself with it, but that doesn't mean there should be a prohibition on
knives in the kitchen, does it?
Should people be protected from their own stupidity?
I was thinking more of clumsiness than stupidity. But I accept that my
concern comes largely from having grown up in an environment where there
were never any power points in bathrooms.
--
David
BrritSki
2008-03-19 11:13:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
I was thinking more of clumsiness than stupidity. But I accept that my
concern comes largely from having grown up in an environment where there
were never any power points in bathrooms.
If this switch was a standard fitting we'd all be safe:

<Loading Image...>
Chris J Dixon
2008-03-19 11:41:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
<http://www.secondrow.adsl24.co.uk/JC.jpg>
Well, I thought Part P was based more on faith than fact ;-)

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/59/31 M B+ G+ A L(-) I S-- CH-(--) Ar++ T+ H0 ?Q Sh+
***@cdixon.me.uk
Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.
Ralph B
2008-03-19 14:47:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
I was thinking more of clumsiness than stupidity.  But I accept that my
concern comes largely from having grown up in an environment where there
were never any power points in bathrooms.
<http://www.secondrow.adsl24.co.uk/JC.jpg>
Suddenly the phrase "Suffer the little children to come unto me" is
replete with entendre.
BrritSki
2008-03-19 11:11:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Rosalind Mitchell
Post by the Omrud
France, also. Makes us nervous that you can plug in a hairdryer and
drop it straight into the bath or sink.
In the UK you can take a 15cm cook's knife from the rack and disembowel
yourself with it, but that doesn't mean there should be a prohibition on
knives in the kitchen, does it?
Perhaps the Blessed Delia can show us how next week ?
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-19 00:41:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:14:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Plusnet
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry that did
it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement process would be
a little more tedious).
It's very common here to have a double switch, one half of which
controls the central light and the other anything that's plugged into
one socket of each group throughout the room. So you can turn off all
the lamps (and, I suppose, the iron etc.) when you go to bed, and turn
them all back on again in one go. In my kitchen you can turn on the
under-cabinet lights or the central light from the door, or both of
course. I've never seen such an arrangement in the UK, but it can't be
that difficult to install.
This house (which I bought - hey, a year ago today!) - has an amazing
number of lightswitches, to me anyway. (They still manage to be in the
wrong place in the bedroom, mind.) Yes, the kitchen has two - one which
does indeed do the under-cabinet striplets (which are real fluorescents,
not those silly long filaments you sometimes find, especially in
bathrooms), and the other does the four big spots. (No, I wouldn't have
chosen spots myself: if there's one room above all else where an
ordinary tube fluorescent is IMO appropriate, it's the kitchen. The
spots do give a nice bright light, but at I presume a high energy cost.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. -Voltaire (1694-1778)
Kate Brown
2008-03-19 11:17:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:14:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Plusnet
I think I would like dual lighting circuits, one with tungsten filament
lighting for a quick response & another with low energy lamps for long
term use.
Unfortunately it would cost a lot to install & fumbling about with twice
as many light switches would be a constant pain.
Well, it would not be beyond the wit of man to device circuitry that did
it for you, so that it wouldn't (though the replacement process would be
a little more tedious).
It's very common here to have a double switch, one half of which
controls the central light and the other anything that's plugged into
one socket of each group throughout the room. So you can turn off all
the lamps (and, I suppose, the iron etc.) when you go to bed, and turn
them all back on again in one go. In my kitchen you can turn on the
under-cabinet lights or the central light from the door, or both of
course. I've never seen such an arrangement in the UK, but it can't be
that difficult to install.
This house (which I bought - hey, a year ago today!) - has an amazing
number of lightswitches, to me anyway. (They still manage to be in the
wrong place in the bedroom, mind.) Yes, the kitchen has two - one which
does indeed do the under-cabinet striplets (which are real
fluorescents, not those silly long filaments you sometimes find,
especially in bathrooms), and the other does the four big spots. (No, I
wouldn't have chosen spots myself: if there's one room above all else
where an ordinary tube fluorescent is IMO appropriate, it's the
kitchen. The spots do give a nice bright light, but at I presume a high
energy cost.)
Again, though, having only fluorescent light in the kitchen does
terrible things to the colour of food, particularly anything reddish.
The delicious cold roast beef we had last night, for example, looked a
dreadful greenish-grey under the fluorescent light, but turned back to
thoroughly edible rosy-pink under the tungsten light above the table.
--
Kate B

PS 'elvira' is spamtrapped - please reply to 'elviraspam' at cockaigne dot org dot uk if you
want to reply personally
badriya
2008-03-17 19:59:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:11:48 +0100, Jo Lonergan
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:10:05 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs
I almost wish I was in the position of needing to buy them. I keep
getting sent them and have accumulated a stock of almost embarrassing
proportions. I've even turned down at least one offer of more free
ones.
Post by Captain Paralytic
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to reach
full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from a
cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see well
enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Put the light on, curse because I forgot it was a waste of time doing so
and grope in the gloom for what I went in for.
Same here, plus "make a mental note to stock up on normal bulbs before
they're banned".
I did that :)
the Omrud
2008-03-17 22:44:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by badriya
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:11:48 +0100, Jo Lonergan
Post by Jo Lonergan
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:10:05 +0000, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs
I almost wish I was in the position of needing to buy them. I keep
getting sent them and have accumulated a stock of almost embarrassing
proportions. I've even turned down at least one offer of more free
ones.
Post by Captain Paralytic
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to reach
full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from a
cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see well
enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Put the light on, curse because I forgot it was a waste of time doing so
and grope in the gloom for what I went in for.
Same here, plus "make a mental note to stock up on normal bulbs before
they're banned".
I did that :)
It's only "standard" sized incandesent bulbs which will disappear. Less
common sizes, such as candle bulbs, will continue.
--
David
chris mcmillan
2008-03-17 20:31:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs
I almost wish I was in the position of needing to buy them. I keep
getting sent them and have accumulated a stock of almost embarrassing
proportions. I've even turned down at least one offer of more free ones.
Post by Captain Paralytic
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Put the light on, curse because I forgot it was a waste of time doing
so and grope in the gloom for what I went in for.
Keep one of those task lamps handy plugged in somewhere then you don't
need to bother with the main light. If you keep the light on in a hall
most of you would be able to see to walk to where the task light is
parked.

Sincerely Chris
--
Chris McMillan
http://www.chinavision.org.uk/
http://www.oneplusone.org.cn 
Serena Blanchflower
2008-03-19 19:46:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by chris mcmillan
Post by Jenny M Benson
In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs
I almost wish I was in the position of needing to buy them. I keep
getting sent them and have accumulated a stock of almost embarrassing
proportions. I've even turned down at least one offer of more free ones.
Post by Captain Paralytic
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights
on and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Put the light on, curse because I forgot it was a waste of time doing
so and grope in the gloom for what I went in for.
Keep one of those task lamps handy plugged in somewhere then you don't
need to bother with the main light. If you keep the light on in a hall
most of you would be able to see to walk to where the task light is parked.
Yes, I do that. Since changing most of my ceiling lights to low
energy ones, I need to use halogen spots far more for anything where i
actually need to be able to see properly.
--
Cheers, Serena
One of the universal rules of happiness is: always be wary of any
helpful item that weighs less than its operating manual.
(Terry Pratchett)
Penny
2008-03-17 15:56:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:10:18 -0700 (PDT), Captain Paralytic
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs for my dining room as
the lights in there tend to stay on for quite a time.
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.

I have another related problem - I want to replace three hideous light
fittings in my new house. Looking around locally and online at available
light fittings I am horrified to find (especially in the current
energy-saving climate) that fittings which will take (and hide) cheap LE
bulbs are really hard to come by. Most take very fancy non-standard bulbs.
The styles available are mostly as hideous as those I'm replacing but
that's another problem. I think I've solved it now although the wall
fittings I have just ordered only take edison screw bulbs but I think
£stretcher has a job-lot of these quite cheap at the moment.
--
Penny
Laughter is the dance of the spirit and the music of the soul.
umra Nicknames & Abbreviations http://www.umra.freeuk.com/nicks.html
Captain Paralytic
2008-03-17 16:01:59 UTC
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Post by Penny
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:10:18 -0700 (PDT), Captain Paralytic
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs for my dining room as
the lights in there tend to stay on for quite a time.
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
I have another related problem - I want to replace three hideous light
fittings in my new house. Looking around locally and online at available
light fittings I am horrified to find (especially in the current
energy-saving climate) that fittings which will take (and hide) cheap LE
bulbs are really hard to come by. Most take very fancy non-standard bulbs.
The styles available are mostly as hideous as those I'm replacing but
that's another problem. I think I've solved it now although the wall
fittings I have just ordered only take edison screw bulbs but I think
£stretcher has a job-lot of these quite cheap at the moment.
--
Penny
Laughter is the dance of the spirit and the music of the soul.
umra Nicknames & Abbreviationshttp://www.umra.freeuk.com/nicks.html
Another problem I have hit with nice light fittings is that, whilst
conventional bulbs will, even if in a fitting with the base downwards,
emit a lot of light downwards, the LE ones have a large opaque base.
So the bottom half of the lampshade remains dark and so sadly does the
room.
chris mcmillan
2008-03-17 20:47:55 UTC
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In message
Post by Penny
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:10:18 -0700 (PDT), Captain Paralytic
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs for my dining room as
the lights in there tend to stay on for quite a time.
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
I have another related problem - I want to replace three hideous light
fittings in my new house. Looking around locally and online at available
light fittings I am horrified to find (especially in the current
energy-saving climate) that fittings which will take (and hide) cheap LE
bulbs are really hard to come by. Most take very fancy non-standard bulbs.
The styles available are mostly as hideous as those I'm replacing but
that's another problem.
I'll admit that no energy saving light bulb I've ever had is *pretty*,
and small is definitely not the word. Fortunately I don't really care
or life would have been very difficult chez Toodles for many years but I
realise I am in a huge minority and they'll never catch on until they
can be made to blend in the way conventional bulbs do.

Sincerely Chris
--
Chris McMillan
http://www.chinavision.org.uk/
http://www.oneplusone.org.cn 
Jenny M Benson
2008-03-17 21:37:57 UTC
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In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
Another problem I have hit with nice light fittings is that, whilst
conventional bulbs will, even if in a fitting with the base downwards,
emit a lot of light downwards, the LE ones have a large opaque base.
I eventually realised that LE stood for Low Energy; I had been fairly
certain it didn't stand for Light Emitting.
--
Jenny
"I always like to have the morning well-aired before I get up."
(Beau Brummel, 1778-1840)
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
2008-03-18 23:56:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
I eventually realised that LE stood for Low Energy; I had been fairly
certain it didn't stand for Light Emitting.
Actually, you're on the right path. LED lights are both low-energy
and full brightness immediately. Most of my CFL's hit full brightness
quickly, but there's one place where I have to plan ahead or be
patient. Learning patience is good for you.

73, doug
Robin Fairbairns
2008-03-19 19:25:03 UTC
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Post by Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
Learning patience is good for you.
yes: my father learned his favoured patience (demon) in the 30s, and
he recounts how it was whiling away time for him in india (1942-45),
in his letters.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge
Jo Lonergan
2008-03-17 16:37:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
Osram did well in a test last year by the Swiss consumer programme.
The winning bulb overall, the Osram EL Longlife, took 10 seconds to
reach maximum brightness, as did the Migros own-brand that was second.
The third placed, from Ikea, took 50 seconds to brighten up.
--
Jo
Captain Paralytic
2008-03-17 17:02:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Penny
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
Osram did well in a test last year by the Swiss consumer programme.
The winning bulb overall, the Osram EL Longlife, took 10 seconds to
reach maximum brightness, as did the Migros own-brand that was second.
The third placed, from Ikea, took 50 seconds to brighten up.
--
Jo
Mine came from IKEA, obviously wasn't one of the 50 second ones!
Thanks for the hint Jo.
Plusnet
2008-03-17 17:33:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Penny
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
Osram did well in a test last year by the Swiss consumer programme.
The winning bulb overall, the Osram EL Longlife, took 10 seconds to
reach maximum brightness, as did the Migros own-brand that was second.
The third placed, from Ikea, took 50 seconds to brighten up.
Did they also look at the colour cast of the lamps?

We have one type which gives out an adequate amount of light, be anyone
sitting beneath it looks like the living dead.
--
Sam
Kate Brown
2008-03-17 18:21:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Plusnet
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Penny
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
Osram did well in a test last year by the Swiss consumer programme.
The winning bulb overall, the Osram EL Longlife, took 10 seconds to
reach maximum brightness, as did the Migros own-brand that was second.
The third placed, from Ikea, took 50 seconds to brighten up.
Did they also look at the colour cast of the lamps?
We have one type which gives out an adequate amount of light, be anyone
sitting beneath it looks like the living dead.
Indeed. I like the idea of low-energy lighting too. But apart from the
delay (still noticeable even in the fastest ones I've found) the main
reason we don't use many of them is the horrible light they give. Even
though they claim it's equivalent either to daylight or tungsten
(depending on whose blurb you read. Mostly they refer to a colour
temperature of 2700, whatever that actually is), the light itself is
distinctly greenish, and renders anything yellow or red - anything
cheerful! - muddy. Very depressing, as our hall and stairways are all a
lovely primrose yellow that goes a nasty dull acidic colour. People too,
as you point out, also look decidedly off-colour.
--
Kate B

PS 'elvira' is spamtrapped - please reply to 'elviraspam' at cockaigne dot org dot uk if you
want to reply personally
Steve Hague
2008-03-17 19:25:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate Brown
Post by Plusnet
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Penny
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
Osram did well in a test last year by the Swiss consumer programme.
The winning bulb overall, the Osram EL Longlife, took 10 seconds to
reach maximum brightness, as did the Migros own-brand that was second.
The third placed, from Ikea, took 50 seconds to brighten up.
Did they also look at the colour cast of the lamps?
We have one type which gives out an adequate amount of light, be anyone
sitting beneath it looks like the living dead.
Indeed. I like the idea of low-energy lighting too. But apart from the
delay (still noticeable even in the fastest ones I've found) the main
reason we don't use many of them is the horrible light they give. Even
though they claim it's equivalent either to daylight or tungsten
(depending on whose blurb you read. Mostly they refer to a colour
temperature of 2700, whatever that actually is), the light itself is
distinctly greenish, and renders anything yellow or red - anything
cheerful! - muddy. Very depressing, as our hall and stairways are all a
lovely primrose yellow that goes a nasty dull acidic colour. People too,
as you point out, also look decidedly off-colour.
--
Kate B
It's just another example of how wonderful technological progress is. Has
anyrat managed to convince themselves that the picture from an LCD
television is anything like as good as that from a CRT type? How about the
relative power consumption? What about the life expectancy? The only
advantage the LCD type have is that they are slimmer and lighter. Don't get
me started on plasma screens.
Steve Hague
chris mcmillan
2008-03-17 20:57:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hague
Post by Kate Brown
Post by Plusnet
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Penny
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
Osram did well in a test last year by the Swiss consumer programme.
The winning bulb overall, the Osram EL Longlife, took 10 seconds to
reach maximum brightness, as did the Migros own-brand that was second.
The third placed, from Ikea, took 50 seconds to brighten up.
Did they also look at the colour cast of the lamps?
We have one type which gives out an adequate amount of light, be anyone
sitting beneath it looks like the living dead.
Indeed. I like the idea of low-energy lighting too. But apart from the
delay (still noticeable even in the fastest ones I've found) the main
reason we don't use many of them is the horrible light they give. Even
though they claim it's equivalent either to daylight or tungsten
(depending on whose blurb you read. Mostly they refer to a colour
temperature of 2700, whatever that actually is), the light itself is
distinctly greenish, and renders anything yellow or red - anything
cheerful! - muddy. Very depressing, as our hall and stairways are all a
lovely primrose yellow that goes a nasty dull acidic colour. People too,
as you point out, also look decidedly off-colour.
--
Kate B
It's just another example of how wonderful technological progress is. Has
anyrat managed to convince themselves that the picture from an LCD
television is anything like as good as that from a CRT type?
I think they're lovely. I've watched the one Hazel's got for short
whiles and its amazing how much 'rubbish' I can suddenly see. (She does
seem to watch some dross. I know quite a few visually impaired friends
have bought them because they can sit back and behave like sensible
people rather than rubbing their noses on the screen. (Gives the
children such bad habits y'know)
Post by Steve Hague
How about the
relative power consumption?
Oh yes. I probably wouldn't have one on that basis. I'm told it eats
leccy.

The day I buy a tele, is the day I'll consider myself old (like my
parents before me)

Sincerely Chris
--
Chris McMillan
http://www.chinavision.org.uk/
http://www.oneplusone.org.cn 
Gumrat
2008-03-17 20:18:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate Brown
Indeed. I like the idea of low-energy lighting too. But apart from the
delay (still noticeable even in the fastest ones I've found) the main
reason we don't use many of them is the horrible light they give. Even
though they claim it's equivalent either to daylight or tungsten
(depending on whose blurb you read. Mostly they refer to a colour
temperature of 2700, whatever that actually is), the light itself is
distinctly greenish, and renders anything yellow or red - anything
cheerful! - muddy. Very depressing, as our hall and stairways are all a
lovely primrose yellow that goes a nasty dull acidic colour. People too,
as you point out, also look decidedly off-colour.
Wot Kate sed (not that our colour scheme is anything like that, but all
the rest. Also, and apologies if it has already been discussed here,
but I've heard it said that peeps wot are prone to migraines suffer far
more when they are in an environment furnished with LE bulbs.
--
Tout de bonbon,
Anne, Seriously, Traditionally Built Curvey Gumrat
Jo Lonergan
2008-03-17 22:00:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gumrat
Post by Kate Brown
Indeed. I like the idea of low-energy lighting too. But apart from the
delay (still noticeable even in the fastest ones I've found) the main
reason we don't use many of them is the horrible light they give. Even
though they claim it's equivalent either to daylight or tungsten
(depending on whose blurb you read. Mostly they refer to a colour
temperature of 2700, whatever that actually is), the light itself is
distinctly greenish, and renders anything yellow or red - anything
cheerful! - muddy. Very depressing, as our hall and stairways are all a
lovely primrose yellow that goes a nasty dull acidic colour. People too,
as you point out, also look decidedly off-colour.
Wot Kate sed (not that our colour scheme is anything like that, but all
the rest. Also, and apologies if it has already been discussed here,
but I've heard it said that peeps wot are prone to migraines suffer far
more when they are in an environment furnished with LE bulbs.
Could it be the nasty colour? I have heard of coloured light being
beneficial for people with dyslexia, migraine and even autism, so
presumably the wrong light could have a negative effect.
--
Jo
chris mcmillan
2008-03-17 20:52:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kate Brown
Post by Plusnet
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Penny
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
Osram did well in a test last year by the Swiss consumer programme.
The winning bulb overall, the Osram EL Longlife, took 10 seconds to
reach maximum brightness, as did the Migros own-brand that was second.
The third placed, from Ikea, took 50 seconds to brighten up.
Did they also look at the colour cast of the lamps?
We have one type which gives out an adequate amount of light, be anyone
sitting beneath it looks like the living dead.
Indeed. I like the idea of low-energy lighting too. But apart from
the delay (still noticeable even in the fastest ones I've found) the
main reason we don't use many of them is the horrible light they give.
Which I don't really understand. Or maybe our big lighting (admittedly
its in the hall and stairway rather than a living area) also gives us
horrid colours, but no one has ever mentioned it over the past 15 years.
You'd have thought if they'd got it right in the big expensive (and
these were expensive) bulbs they could have still got it right in
conventional sized bulbs. Or is someone trying to mend what is not
broke?

Mr McT knows about lighting. I don't.

Sincerely Chris
--
Chris McMillan
http://www.chinavision.org.uk/
http://www.oneplusone.org.cn 
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-18 01:04:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@nospam.demon.co.uk>, Kate Brown
<***@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
[]
Post by Kate Brown
Indeed. I like the idea of low-energy lighting too. But apart from
the delay (still noticeable even in the fastest ones I've found) the
main reason we don't use many of them is the horrible light they give.
Even though they claim it's equivalent either to daylight or tungsten
(depending on whose blurb you read. Mostly they refer to a colour
temperature of 2700, whatever that actually is), the light itself is
distinctly greenish, and renders anything yellow or red - anything
cheerful! - muddy. Very depressing, as our hall and stairways are all
a lovely primrose yellow that goes a nasty dull acidic colour. People
too, as you point out, also look decidedly off-colour.
Colour temperature: equivalent "black body" temperature. If you draw a
graph of wavelength of emitted light against intensity of same, you get
something with a spiky spectrum in the case of a pure discharge tube
(like the old sodium streetlights, or neon or other "coloured" tube
lights); if you heat a body to a certain temperature (either by playing
a flame on it, or heating it directly as in the case of a tungsten
filament), you get a broader spectrum, but the centre of the spectrum is
still based around somewhere (redder for cooler, bluer for hotter). The
"colour temperature" is the equivalent temperature you'd have to heat
something to to make it glow in a particular manner (I can't remember if
it's Celsius or Kelvin). Fluorescents - both the old striplights and the
modern compact ones - are basically discharge tubes, which emit a narrow
peak (often in the ultraviolet), with a "phosphor" - a powder - on the
inside of the tube, which when exposed to ultraviolet light, glows in
the visible spectrum. They try to use a mix of phosphors that mimics the
normal black body type of light. The colour temperature is the
temperature of the black body they're claiming to mimic.

The eye has only three types of colour sensors (basically red, blue, and
green), and additionally the brain adjusts anyway. (You can demonstrate
this by exposing yourself [!] to strongly coloured light for a while,
then going into more neutral lighting; I remember at school, the main
hall had heavy red curtains. Once or twice I'd been in there for a while
on a very sunny day, but with the curtains drawn for some reason - play
rehearsals or something; when I came out into central hall, the world
seemed most disconcertingly green for a few minutes!). Therefore, if you
have mainly white or creamy walls, the lighting doesn't matter that much
- except that, some of the things you might want to look at (including
people!) have a colour mix that doesn't match the spectrum of the
artificial source (its peaks are in the gaps of the source or whatever),
so look decidedly odd.

LED lamps - which are still expensive - have a fairly narrow spectrum,
and are mostly still just used where a coloured lamp is actually wanted.
So-called white ones are actually blue LEDs with phosphors in them, like
fluorescents, which glow in an approximation to white again.

Sorry, I got carried away there! I think I'm a teacher underneath (well,
both my parents were, though language [briefly mentioned in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gilliver, pictures on
www.soft255.demon.co.uk]), especially on science subjects.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

10.0 times 0.1 is hardly ever 1.0.
Robin Fairbairns
2008-03-18 09:33:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
LED lamps - which are still expensive - have a fairly narrow spectrum,
and are mostly still just used where a coloured lamp is actually wanted.
So-called white ones are actually blue LEDs with phosphors in them, like
fluorescents, which glow in an approximation to white again.
but appear a rather unpleasant pale blue to me. i presume this is to
do with my difficulties with yellow[*]-blue comparisons.

[*] yellow isn't a primary colour, but there's a neural circuit that
(more or less[**]) compares the sum of the red and green signals with
the blue signal.
[**] the more you learn about the anatomy and physiology of the
eye[***], the more odd the idea of an intelligent designer becomes:
surely no *intelligent* entity would *design* anything remotely like
the human eye?
[***] i know rather little, but i get this feeling even more than i do
with many other oddities of human anatomy, such as the appendix.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge
Penny
2008-03-18 11:14:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 18 Mar 2008 09:33:39 GMT, ***@cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns) scrawled
in the dust...
Post by Robin Fairbairns
[*] yellow isn't a primary colour
Isn't it?
It is in the subtractive primary group.

But I suppose the subject was light not pigments - as you were.
--
Penny
Laughter is the dance of the spirit and the music of the soul.
umra Nicknames & Abbreviations http://www.umra.freeuk.com/nicks.html
Robin Fairbairns
2008-03-18 11:44:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
in the dust...
(actually, not. lff never notices if i do that.)
Post by Penny
Post by Robin Fairbairns
[*] yellow isn't a primary colour
Isn't it?
It is in the subtractive primary group.
But I suppose the subject was light not pigments - as you were.
does black count in that set? (as in cmyk, that is?) tbh, i've never
encountered the term "subtractive primary" before. i was taught most
of the colour theory i know by a physiologist, at a computer graphics
conference, and he explained the differences between what you can
represent in print and on screen, but he didn't go into the theory of
printing, much.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge
Penny
2008-03-18 19:46:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 18 Mar 2008 11:44:25 GMT, ***@cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns) scrawled
in the dust...
Post by Robin Fairbairns
Post by Penny
in the dust...
(actually, not. lff never notices if i do that.)
Post by Penny
Post by Robin Fairbairns
[*] yellow isn't a primary colour
Isn't it?
It is in the subtractive primary group.
But I suppose the subject was light not pigments - as you were.
does black count in that set? (as in cmyk, that is?) tbh, i've never
encountered the term "subtractive primary" before. i was taught most
of the colour theory i know by a physiologist, at a computer graphics
conference, and he explained the differences between what you can
represent in print and on screen, but he didn't go into the theory of
printing, much.
I was first taught about primary colours at, erm, primary school where we
learnt they were red, yellow and blue and, they said, you could make all
the colours there were from these three. I was very sceptical since I had
great difficulty mixing the colours I wanted to use from the powder colours
we were given.

I probably went home and queried these assertions. My mother (the botanist
who painted a bit) said it was true but you had to have the right colours
in the right sort of paint. My father, the physicist, said a great deal
(as always*) about coloured light and the difference between additive and
subtractive primaries, most of which went right over my head. He probably
also produced his colour-mixing tops at that point - I think I may have
them somewhere and I've certainly seen something similar in the Hawkin
catalogue in the past. I think when it's light it is addition and pigment
it is subtraction because with pigment the colour mixing can only reduce
the parts of the spectrum that are reflected BIMBAM.

As for printing - you can't really make a decent black from 100% yellow +
100% cyan + 100% magenta - I don't think anyone tries these days - the
additional set-up costs for a fourth colour on anything but a tiny run
would be negligible. For 'proper' colour printing it's ala ways four
colour, I think (but I was never an actual printer and never got involved
(beyond producing artwork that someone else would deal with) in colour
separation work).

*colour perception and optics were things that particularly interest(ed)
him but in general he always answered a simple, childish question with a
lecture which wasn't really what I wanted.
--
Penny
Laughter is the dance of the spirit and the music of the soul.
umra Nicknames & Abbreviations http://www.umra.freeuk.com/nicks.html
Jim Easterbrook
2008-03-18 20:49:36 UTC
Reply
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Post by Penny
I think when
it's light it is addition and pigment it is subtraction because with
pigment the colour mixing can only reduce the parts of the spectrum
that are reflected BIMBAM.
That's my understanding as well.

Some of my colleagues know a great deal about colourimetry, little of
which has rubbed off on me. However, I do know that a TV with three
primary colours (red, green and blue) cannot reproduce every colour there
is. There's a thing called a chromaticity diagram (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space) that shows pure
colours from red to violet around the edge of a curve. Any set of three
primary colours form a triangle on this diagram, and can only reproduce
colours within the triangle, known as the gamut.
Post by Penny
As for printing - you can't really make a decent black from 100%
yellow + 100% cyan + 100% magenta - I don't think anyone tries these
days - the additional set-up costs for a fourth colour on anything but
a tiny run would be negligible. For 'proper' colour printing it's ala
ways four colour, I think (but I was never an actual printer and never
got involved (beyond producing artwork that someone else would deal
with) in colour separation work).
I'm sure similar gamut problems occur in printing. I believe some
printing uses many more "primaries" than just CMYK, e.g. for expensive
art books, and the flesh tone reference pictures used for lining up TV
cameras.
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-19 01:03:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@130.133.1.4>, Jim
Easterbrook <***@jim-easterbrook.me.uk> writes
[]
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Some of my colleagues know a great deal about colourimetry, little of
which has rubbed off on me. However, I do know that a TV with three
primary colours (red, green and blue) cannot reproduce every colour there
No, it can only produce mixtures of the three colours, nothing else.
However, since the human eye just has the three types of colour sensor,
it can produce the same effect (if the tube phosphors are a pretty good
match to the eye's receptors), i. e. such that there's no way a human
can tell the difference - other than lighting a coloured object with the
screen. Take a pure yellow light (such as from a sodium light tube):
this produces a narrow (very narrow) spectrum; however, in the human
eye, it activates the red sensors to some extent and the green sensors
to some extent. The telly with the red and green dots turned on in the
same proportions will produce an effect that's the same _to a human_.
For viewing pictures, then, it can make the same impression on the
brain. If, however, you get an object which reflects only the pure
yellow - some pigments do; other pigments reflect a broad spectrum which
_looks_ yellow - and use the light from the telly to illuminate it, it
will look dark, or at least not the same as if lit by true white (i. e.
broad spectrum) light. The three colour sensors in TV cameras try to be
the same response as the human ones, but can be broader or narrower, so
things aren't always perfect.
[]
Post by Jim Easterbrook
I'm sure similar gamut problems occur in printing. I believe some
printing uses many more "primaries" than just CMYK, e.g. for expensive
It's not just very expensive - I've seen (the dots in the edge of)
printing for even humble things like Sunday supplements, and certainly
for wallpaper and fabric designs. (Sometimes not that many colours, but
they're not the usual primaries - depends on what's in the design.)
Post by Jim Easterbrook
art books, and the flesh tone reference pictures used for lining up TV
cameras.
You hardly ever see Carole these days!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

Nothing fixes a thing so intensely in the memory as the wish to forget it.
-Michel de Montaigne, essayist (1533-1592)
Kate Brown
2008-03-19 11:12:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Some of my colleagues know a great deal about colourimetry, little of
which has rubbed off on me. However, I do know that a TV with three
primary colours (red, green and blue) cannot reproduce every colour there
No, it can only produce mixtures of the three colours, nothing else.
However, since the human eye just has the three types of colour sensor,
it can produce the same effect (if the tube phosphors are a pretty good
match to the eye's receptors), i. e. such that there's no way a human
can tell the difference - other than lighting a coloured object with
the screen. Take a pure yellow light (such as from a sodium light
tube): this produces a narrow (very narrow) spectrum; however, in the
human eye, it activates the red sensors to some extent and the green
sensors to some extent. The telly with the red and green dots turned on
in the same proportions will produce an effect that's the same _to a
human_. For viewing pictures, then, it can make the same impression on
the brain. If, however, you get an object which reflects only the pure
yellow - some pigments do; other pigments reflect a broad spectrum
which _looks_ yellow - and use the light from the telly to illuminate
it, it will look dark, or at least not the same as if lit by true white
(i. e. broad spectrum) light. The three colour sensors in TV cameras
try to be the same response as the human ones, but can be broader or
narrower, so things aren't always perfect.
[]
Is that the reason for the invariably blue colour of the flicker of
reflected television light seen through other people's windows? Always
looks really eerie.
--
Kate B

PS 'elvira' is spamtrapped - please reply to 'elviraspam' at cockaigne dot org dot uk if you
want to reply personally
Robin Fairbairns
2008-03-19 20:00:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Some of my colleagues know a great deal about colourimetry, little of
which has rubbed off on me. However, I do know that a TV with three
primary colours (red, green and blue) cannot reproduce every colour there
No, it can only produce mixtures of the three colours, nothing else.
However, since the human eye just has the three types of colour sensor,
it can produce the same effect (if the tube phosphors are a pretty good
match to the eye's receptors), i. e. such that there's no way a human
can tell the difference
this is in fact fiendishly difficult. the "colour" sensors in the eye
actually react over rather a broad spectrum; and the "red" and "green"
overlap an awful lot. and then there's the curious business of the
"blue-yellow" sensor (a neural circuit that that sums red+green, and
reports the difference between that and the output of the blue cones
-- this is the only signal derived from the blue cones that actually
goes to the brain).
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
- other than lighting a coloured object with the
objection: even pure sodium lamps (as in a skule physics lab -- street
lights have neon in there as a starter) produce an orange colour. the
visible spectrum is the 2 "d" lines, which are rather close to each
other.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
this produces a narrow (very narrow) spectrum; however, in the human
eye, it activates the red sensors to some extent and the green sensors
to some extent. The telly with the red and green dots turned on in the
same proportions will produce an effect that's the same _to a human_.
well, almost.

i suspect that we've all programmed ourselves to accept the
differences between the screen and real life, just as we used to smile
at the early colour printing from our cameras. the representation
gets better all the time, but it'll almost certainly look different to
you than it does to me (faulty blue-yellow circuitry, i suspect), and
we'll both see things differently from the way lff sees them, whose
eyesight is differently broken, again.

i think the best attitude for anyone who's not an expert (like jim's
colleagues) is that "things seem to look ok". dogmatic assertions
about the way it can be "made to work" seem to me mostly to sound like
whistling into the wind.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge
Jim Easterbrook
2008-03-19 20:51:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robin Fairbairns
i suspect that we've all programmed ourselves to accept the
differences between the screen and real life, just as we used to smile
at the early colour printing from our cameras. the representation
gets better all the time, but it'll almost certainly look different to
you than it does to me (faulty blue-yellow circuitry, i suspect), and
we'll both see things differently from the way lff sees them, whose
eyesight is differently broken, again.
The chromaticity diagram is based on the response of an average, normal,
human. Individuals will see colours differently, even "normal" individuals.
That wikipedia page
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space> also has a graph
showing the spectral overlap of the eye's colour sensors. The linked page
on metamerism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_%28color%29> also
has something to say on the problems of flourescent lights.

For a bit more on how TV cameras analyse colour (and some idea of how much
of the gamut is beyond them) see this paper
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP034.pdf> by one of my
colleagues (now retired).
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-19 00:49:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@4ax.com>, Penny
<***@labyrinth.freeuk.com> writes
[]
Post by Penny
I was first taught about primary colours at, erm, primary school where we
learnt they were red, yellow and blue and, they said, you could make all
the colours there were from these three. I was very sceptical since I had
great difficulty mixing the colours I wanted to use from the powder colours
we were given.
I think this was one of the tenets of the expressionists (school/style
of painting - Monet, Degas, and that crowd).
[]
Post by Penny
As for printing - you can't really make a decent black from 100% yellow +
100% cyan + 100% magenta - I don't think anyone tries these days - the
additional set-up costs for a fourth colour on anything but a tiny run
Well, some inkjet printers do it - some as a way of producing black when
you've run out of black ink just so you can go on printing until you buy
a new black cartridge, some (which the ink sellers must love) having
only the colour cartridge and no black. I'd heard it said that it tends
to produce rather a brownish black, but the one example I've seen looked
OK - it was just slow (and I was aware of the ink being wasted!).
[]
Post by Penny
*colour perception and optics were things that particularly interest(ed)
him but in general he always answered a simple, childish question with a
lecture which wasn't really what I wanted.
Oh dear, I tend to do that ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

Nothing fixes a thing so intensely in the memory as the wish to forget it.
-Michel de Montaigne, essayist (1533-1592)
Penny
2008-03-19 19:37:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:49:54 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<***@soft255.demon.co.uk> scrawled in the dust...

I wrote, of my father
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Penny
*colour perception and optics were things that particularly interest(ed)
him but in general he always answered a simple, childish question with a
lecture which wasn't really what I wanted.
Oh dear, I tend to do that ...
Many people do, especially about subjects they have a passion for. When you
have a deep understanding of and interest in a subject it is natural to
react in this way to anyone who shows any interest.

When the person showing an interest is your pre-teen child the long term
effects are:
a) they will stop asking you about anything
b) they will decide at a very early age that the whole subject is beyond
their comprehension so they won't bother trying to understand it unless it
impinges upon their life later on
c) they will still have no idea of the answer to the original question

I had a lecturer at college who had the same tendency although he usually
gave the short answer first which was an improvement.
--
Penny
Laughter is the dance of the spirit and the music of the soul.
umra Nicknames & Abbreviations http://www.umra.freeuk.com/nicks.html
Plusnet
2008-03-18 15:06:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <fro29j$n9j$***@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>, ***@cl.cam.ac.uk
says...
Post by Robin Fairbairns
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
LED lamps - which are still expensive - have a fairly narrow spectrum,
and are mostly still just used where a coloured lamp is actually wanted.
So-called white ones are actually blue LEDs with phosphors in them, like
fluorescents, which glow in an approximation to white again.
but appear a rather unpleasant pale blue to me. i presume this is to
do with my difficulties with yellow[*]-blue comparisons.
We had one lamp - Ikea 11 Watt - which I swear emitted grey light.

It's no longer in use.
--
Sam
Jo Lonergan
2008-03-17 19:20:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Plusnet
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Penny
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
Osram did well in a test last year by the Swiss consumer programme.
The winning bulb overall, the Osram EL Longlife, took 10 seconds to
reach maximum brightness, as did the Migros own-brand that was second.
The third placed, from Ikea, took 50 seconds to brighten up.
I've just had a look at the original test report (in German)
http://www.energieeffizienz.ch/files/Sparlampen_07_Schlussbericht_191107_2.pdf

Three Ikea models were well-placed, and reached maximum efficiency in
under a minute, but a fourth took at least 30 mins. How are we to
know, when we just go shopping without a printout?
Post by Plusnet
Did they also look at the colour cast of the lamps?
"Code 827" is recommended for a warm white colour.

They did report that bulbs with a life of 6000 to 8000 hours should
only be used when they aren't being turned on and off a lot, optimally
burning for at least an hour at a time. Otherwise their life is
radically reduced.

Also the stick-shaped ones are better than the traditional bulb shape.

They recommend Power Factor Correction, whatever that may be, if
you're sensitive to electromagnetic fields. This is something that
people seem to be more concerned about here in Switzerland than in the
UK.

I found a site with a buyer's guide to bulbs:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=BuyGuide/LightBulbBG.html#1
Post by Plusnet
We have one type which gives out an adequate amount of light, be anyone
sitting beneath it looks like the living dead.
And they never mention these things when they're trying to get us all
to change. Or that if you break one they give off mercury vapour, and
you should leave the room for a bit while it disperses.
--
Jo
Jim Easterbrook
2008-03-17 19:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
They recommend Power Factor Correction, whatever that may be, if
you're sensitive to electromagnetic fields.
We did power factors here last week. Keep up at the back, there. Put as
simply as I can, a purely resistive load such as an electric fire or an
incandescent light bulb, draws its current in the same phase as the
voltage, and the watts it consumes can be calculated by multiplying the
amps by the volts.

A reactive load, such as an electric motor or a traditional flourescent
tube (the sort that goes dink a couple of times before coming on) draws
its current partly out of phase with the voltage, and the watts it
consumes are less than the amps times the volts, by a scale factor known
as the power factor.

I don't know what the power factor of an energy saving bulb is, but I
fail to see how it could have any effect on electromagnetic field
radiation. I'm also not aware of any human sensitivity to EM fields at
this sort of level.
Post by Jo Lonergan
This is something that
people seem to be more concerned about here in Switzerland than in the
UK.
I'd always assumed the Swiss to be a bit more rational than that. You
live and learn.
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
Mike McMillan
2008-03-17 20:21:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jim Easterbrook
I don't know what the power factor of an energy saving bulb is, but I
fail to see how it could have any effect on electromagnetic field
radiation. I'm also not aware of any human sensitivity to EM fields at
this sort of level.
Ah now, this is something on which I could (but won't) spout for a
number of boring minutes but, partly because the matter would breach
confidentiality matters, I'll just say:

I had dealings with a person who cannot use electronic equipment (inc.
fluorescent lighting) if the equipment came within say 1.5 metre of him.
I had to arrange for an extension keyboard and a larger TFT screen that
was set to a lower res. mode and used from a distance. Telephones are
also difficult and I arranged for a loudspeaking phone ...

Such experiences are by no means common but the person concerned carries
a letter from a consultant that explained that they had hyper
sensitivity to EMF. Ya lives an' lurnz dontcha?
--
Mike McMillan,
The email address is spam trapped but any genuine communications may be sent to
mike dot mcmillan at ntlworld dot com

"Let's all calm down shall we? Let's forget there is a llama in here at all."
(Lynda Snell, 010603)

Tel: (+44) 0118 9265450. website: <http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mike.mcmillan/>
Jim Easterbrook
2008-03-17 20:45:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike McMillan
I had dealings with a person who cannot use electronic equipment (inc.
fluorescent lighting) if the equipment came within say 1.5 metre of him.
I had to arrange for an extension keyboard and a larger TFT screen that
was set to a lower res. mode and used from a distance. Telephones are
also difficult and I arranged for a loudspeaking phone ...
I'd love to know if this had been tested in a double blind controlled
environment. 1 metre allows plenty of room for the supposed problem
equipment to be hidden.
Post by Mike McMillan
Such experiences are by no means common but the person concerned carries
a letter from a consultant that explained that they had hyper
sensitivity to EMF. Ya lives an' lurnz dontcha?
Does the consultant offer any possible physical cause? I'm sorry Mike, I
don't want to disbelieve you but I'm very sceptical about this.
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
Mike McMillan
2008-03-17 21:46:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by Mike McMillan
I had dealings with a person who cannot use electronic equipment (inc.
fluorescent lighting) if the equipment came within say 1.5 metre of him.
I had to arrange for an extension keyboard and a larger TFT screen that
was set to a lower res. mode and used from a distance. Telephones are
also difficult and I arranged for a loudspeaking phone ...
I'd love to know if this had been tested in a double blind controlled
environment. 1 metre allows plenty of room for the supposed problem
equipment to be hidden.
Post by Mike McMillan
Such experiences are by no means common but the person concerned carries
a letter from a consultant that explained that they had hyper
sensitivity to EMF. Ya lives an' lurnz dontcha?
Does the consultant offer any possible physical cause? I'm sorry Mike, I
don't want to disbelieve you but I'm very sceptical about this.
I think we are still at the stage whereby, if the patient says they
experience discomfort, muddled mindednes and fatigue, they take their
word that summat isn't right with the situation. I am not sure one way
or the other but just looked for means of ameliorating a stated problem
...
--
Mike McMillan,
The email address is spam trapped but any genuine communications may be sent to
mike dot mcmillan at ntlworld dot com

"Let's all calm down shall we? Let's forget there is a llama in here at all."
(Lynda Snell, 010603)

Tel: (+44) 0118 9265450. website: <http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mike.mcmillan/>
Plusnet
2008-03-17 23:29:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <HP6$***@mike.mcmillan>, ***@ntlworld.com
says...
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by Mike McMillan
I had dealings with a person who cannot use electronic equipment (inc.
fluorescent lighting) if the equipment came within say 1.5 metre of him.
I had to arrange for an extension keyboard and a larger TFT screen that
was set to a lower res. mode and used from a distance. Telephones are
also difficult and I arranged for a loudspeaking phone ...
I'd love to know if this had been tested in a double blind controlled
environment. 1 metre allows plenty of room for the supposed problem
equipment to be hidden.
Post by Mike McMillan
Such experiences are by no means common but the person concerned carries
a letter from a consultant that explained that they had hyper
sensitivity to EMF. Ya lives an' lurnz dontcha?
Does the consultant offer any possible physical cause? I'm sorry Mike, I
don't want to disbelieve you but I'm very sceptical about this.
I think we are still at the stage whereby, if the patient says they
experience discomfort, muddled mindednes and fatigue, they take their
word that summat isn't right with the situation. I am not sure one way
or the other but just looked for means of ameliorating a stated problem
...
I do wonder what exactly is the consultant's field of expertise which
covers this ailment?
--
Sam
Mike McMillan
2008-03-18 18:29:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Plusnet
says...
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by Mike McMillan
I had dealings with a person who cannot use electronic equipment (inc.
fluorescent lighting) if the equipment came within say 1.5 metre of him.
I had to arrange for an extension keyboard and a larger TFT screen that
was set to a lower res. mode and used from a distance. Telephones are
also difficult and I arranged for a loudspeaking phone ...
I'd love to know if this had been tested in a double blind controlled
environment. 1 metre allows plenty of room for the supposed problem
equipment to be hidden.
Post by Mike McMillan
Such experiences are by no means common but the person concerned carries
a letter from a consultant that explained that they had hyper
sensitivity to EMF. Ya lives an' lurnz dontcha?
Does the consultant offer any possible physical cause? I'm sorry Mike, I
don't want to disbelieve you but I'm very sceptical about this.
I think we are still at the stage whereby, if the patient says they
experience discomfort, muddled mindednes and fatigue, they take their
word that summat isn't right with the situation. I am not sure one way
or the other but just looked for means of ameliorating a stated problem
...
I do wonder what exactly is the consultant's field of expertise which
covers this ailment?
Current Affairs
--
Mike McMillan,
The email address is spam trapped but any genuine communications may be sent to
mike dot mcmillan at ntlworld dot com

"Let's all calm down shall we? Let's forget there is a llama in here at all."
(Lynda Snell, 010603)

Tel: (+44) 0118 9265450. website: <http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mike.mcmillan/>
Plusnet
2008-03-18 20:40:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <G6XcuuDEmA4HFAV+@mike.mcmillan>, ***@ntlworld.com
says...
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Plusnet
I do wonder what exactly is the consultant's field of expertise which
covers this ailment?
Current Affairs
Chris. Hit him.
--
Sam
chris mcmillan
2008-03-18 22:33:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Plusnet
says...
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Plusnet
I do wonder what exactly is the consultant's field of expertise which
covers this ailment?
Current Affairs
Chris. Hit him.
He's bigger than me, Sam. And he might cut off my rations.

Sincerely Chris
--
Chris McMillan
http://www.chinavision.org.uk/
http://www.oneplusone.org.cn 
Jenny M Benson
2008-03-19 00:35:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by chris mcmillan
He's bigger than me, Sam. And he might cut off my rations.
Lysistrata in reverse, as it were?
--
Jenny
"I always like to have the morning well-aired before I get up."
(Beau Brummel, 1778-1840)
chris mcmillan
2008-03-19 18:34:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by chris mcmillan
He's bigger than me, Sam. And he might cut off my rations.
Lysistrata in reverse, as it were?
Who? What? Why?

Sincerely Chris
--
Chris McMillan
http://www.chinavision.org.uk/
http://www.oneplusone.org.cn 
Serena Blanchflower
2008-03-19 19:03:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by chris mcmillan
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by chris mcmillan
He's bigger than me, Sam. And he might cut off my rations.
Lysistrata in reverse, as it were?
Who? What? Why?
Take a look at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata>.
--
Cheers, Serena
Experience is not what happens to you, it is what you do with what
happens to you. (Aldous Huxley)
chris mcmillan
2008-03-18 19:49:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Plusnet
says...
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by Mike McMillan
I had dealings with a person who cannot use electronic equipment (inc.
fluorescent lighting) if the equipment came within say 1.5 metre of him.
I had to arrange for an extension keyboard and a larger TFT screen that
was set to a lower res. mode and used from a distance. Telephones are
also difficult and I arranged for a loudspeaking phone ...
I'd love to know if this had been tested in a double blind controlled
environment. 1 metre allows plenty of room for the supposed problem
equipment to be hidden.
Post by Mike McMillan
Such experiences are by no means common but the person concerned carries
a letter from a consultant that explained that they had hyper
sensitivity to EMF. Ya lives an' lurnz dontcha?
Does the consultant offer any possible physical cause? I'm sorry Mike, I
don't want to disbelieve you but I'm very sceptical about this.
I think we are still at the stage whereby, if the patient says they
experience discomfort, muddled mindednes and fatigue, they take their
word that summat isn't right with the situation. I am not sure one way
or the other but just looked for means of ameliorating a stated problem
...
I do wonder what exactly is the consultant's field of expertise which
covers this ailment?
There are a lot of 'things' which don't yet have a name if they're
particularly 'rare'. And some 'things' which get a name, but because
there are only a few known people (relatively) in the whole world with
the condition, only the symptoms are noted and treated if possible. No
research is carried out because there are not enough people with the
condition to make it worth while.

My friend whose funeral I went to in Cheltenham the other week was born
with a very rare condition: he was one of just less than a thousand
people known in the world with it. And he was one of the most severely
disabled with it. I fully expected his body to be snapped up for
research purposes as he died unexpectedly, and he knew everything there
was to know about his condition. But Carole said no research, no money,
not enough people to be able to raise the awareness to do so.

I often wonder what's happened to some of the very severely disabled
people I grew up with: mostly they will have had what are now well known
conditions, but Jim won't have been the only one with what in the 1960s
was an unknown condition.

And there's an awful lot more of those 'unknowns' out there today.

Sincerely Chris
--
Chris McMillan
http://www.chinavision.org.uk/
http://www.oneplusone.org.cn 
Plusnet
2008-03-18 21:02:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@chris.mcmillan>, ***@ntlworld.com
says...
Post by chris mcmillan
Post by Plusnet
says...
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by Mike McMillan
I had dealings with a person who cannot use electronic equipment (inc.
fluorescent lighting) if the equipment came within say 1.5 metre of him.
I had to arrange for an extension keyboard and a larger TFT screen that
was set to a lower res. mode and used from a distance. Telephones are
also difficult and I arranged for a loudspeaking phone ...
I'd love to know if this had been tested in a double blind controlled
environment. 1 metre allows plenty of room for the supposed problem
equipment to be hidden.
Post by Mike McMillan
Such experiences are by no means common but the person concerned carries
a letter from a consultant that explained that they had hyper
sensitivity to EMF. Ya lives an' lurnz dontcha?
Does the consultant offer any possible physical cause? I'm sorry Mike, I
don't want to disbelieve you but I'm very sceptical about this.
I think we are still at the stage whereby, if the patient says they
experience discomfort, muddled mindednes and fatigue, they take their
word that summat isn't right with the situation. I am not sure one way
or the other but just looked for means of ameliorating a stated problem
...
I do wonder what exactly is the consultant's field of expertise which
covers this ailment?
There are a lot of 'things' which don't yet have a name if they're
particularly 'rare'. And some 'things' which get a name, but because
there are only a few known people (relatively) in the whole world with
the condition, only the symptoms are noted and treated if possible. No
research is carried out because there are not enough people with the
condition to make it worth while.
My friend whose funeral I went to in Cheltenham the other week was born
with a very rare condition: he was one of just less than a thousand
people known in the world with it. And he was one of the most severely
disabled with it. I fully expected his body to be snapped up for
research purposes as he died unexpectedly, and he knew everything there
was to know about his condition. But Carole said no research, no money,
not enough people to be able to raise the awareness to do so.
Consultants usually specialise in parts of the body, or types of
diseases - or whatever.
I still can't imagine what kind of consultant would consider themselves
competent to give this diagnosis - and what type of tests were conducted
to verify it.

I raised the question because today so many things depend entirely on
receiving 'a diagnosis'.
No matter how ill you may actually be, you are not really considered ill
until it becomes official.

This case struck me as someone who has received 'a diagnosis', but
perhaps one that's not very well tested & thus not useful.
--
Sam
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-18 01:08:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by Mike McMillan
I had dealings with a person who cannot use electronic equipment (inc.
fluorescent lighting) if the equipment came within say 1.5 metre of him.
I had to arrange for an extension keyboard and a larger TFT screen that
was set to a lower res. mode and used from a distance. Telephones are
also difficult and I arranged for a loudspeaking phone ...
I'd love to know if this had been tested in a double blind controlled
environment. 1 metre allows plenty of room for the supposed problem
equipment to be hidden.
Post by Mike McMillan
Such experiences are by no means common but the person concerned carries
a letter from a consultant that explained that they had hyper
sensitivity to EMF. Ya lives an' lurnz dontcha?
Does the consultant offer any possible physical cause? I'm sorry Mike, I
don't want to disbelieve you but I'm very sceptical about this.
I think we are still at the stage whereby, if the patient says they
experience discomfort, muddled mindednes and fatigue, they take their
word that summat isn't right with the situation. I am not sure one way
or the other but just looked for means of ameliorating a stated problem >...
I'm with Jim and Sam on this - double-blind tests definitely needed. I'm
not saying the unfortunate person doesn't, truly, have a problem
(hypersensitivity to flickering light might be relevant - did/does s/he
still suffer with eyes shut and/or the screen covered?), I just question
whether EMF is what s/he's sensitive to.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

10.0 times 0.1 is hardly ever 1.0.
Nick
2008-03-17 20:59:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by Jim Easterbrook
I don't know what the power factor of an energy saving bulb is, but I
fail to see how it could have any effect on electromagnetic field
radiation. I'm also not aware of any human sensitivity to EM fields at
this sort of level.
Ah now, this is something on which I could (but won't) spout for a
number of boring minutes but, partly because the matter would breach
I had dealings with a person who cannot use electronic equipment (inc.
fluorescent lighting) if the equipment came within say 1.5 metre of him.
I had to arrange for an extension keyboard and a larger TFT screen that
was set to a lower res. mode and used from a distance. Telephones are
also difficult and I arranged for a loudspeaking phone ...
Such experiences are by no means common but the person concerned carries
a letter from a consultant that explained that they had hyper
sensitivity to EMF. Ya lives an' lurnz dontcha?
I'd love to see some double-blind lab tests on someone like that.
Jo Lonergan
2008-03-17 21:55:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 17 Mar 2008 19:49:58 GMT, Jim Easterbrook
Post by Jim Easterbrook
I don't know what the power factor of an energy saving bulb is, but I
fail to see how it could have any effect on electromagnetic field
radiation. I'm also not aware of any human sensitivity to EM fields at
this sort of level.
Post by Jo Lonergan
This is something that
people seem to be more concerned about here in Switzerland than in the
UK.
I'd always assumed the Swiss to be a bit more rational than that. You
live and learn.
It's quite a general belief, as far as I can see, among the general
population and the media. I do have a friend (English) who has stopped
having migraines since they converted from wifi to a lan at home. But
it's quite hard really to avoid wifi these days, from your neighbours.
And is it different from ordinary radio transmissions?
--
Jo
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-18 01:17:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
On 17 Mar 2008 19:49:58 GMT, Jim Easterbrook
Post by Jim Easterbrook
I don't know what the power factor of an energy saving bulb is, but I
fail to see how it could have any effect on electromagnetic field
radiation. I'm also not aware of any human sensitivity to EM fields at
this sort of level.
Post by Jo Lonergan
This is something that
people seem to be more concerned about here in Switzerland than in the
UK.
I'd always assumed the Swiss to be a bit more rational than that. You
live and learn.
It's quite a general belief, as far as I can see, among the general
population and the media. I do have a friend (English) who has stopped
Sorry, you've pressed one of my buttons ... (flat Earth anyone?)
Post by Jo Lonergan
having migraines since they converted from wifi to a lan at home. But
Double-blind tests needed again ...
Post by Jo Lonergan
it's quite hard really to avoid wifi these days, from your neighbours.
And is it different from ordinary radio transmissions?
No. Wifi uses frequencies around 2.4 GHz - that's 2400 MHz - so shorter
wavelengths (bit over a centimetre) than yer normal radio (Band II, i.
e. the "FM" band, is about 3 metres, normal telly - analogue and digital
- is bands IV and V, around 400 to 900 MHz so a few tens of
centimetres). It's the same band as the microwave oven. When I first
paid attention to microwave ovens, the standard was 650 watts and a
cheap one was 500 watts; consider how much of that a half per cent leak
would be (especially as the norm these days seems to be 800W or more).
Yer normal wifi link is about a tenth of a watt - the "really powerful"
ones are about a watt.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

10.0 times 0.1 is hardly ever 1.0.
Nick Odell
2008-03-18 02:29:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 01:17:47 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Jo Lonergan
On 17 Mar 2008 19:49:58 GMT, Jim Easterbrook
Post by Jim Easterbrook
I don't know what the power factor of an energy saving bulb is, but I
fail to see how it could have any effect on electromagnetic field
radiation. I'm also not aware of any human sensitivity to EM fields at
this sort of level.
Post by Jo Lonergan
This is something that
people seem to be more concerned about here in Switzerland than in the
UK.
I'd always assumed the Swiss to be a bit more rational than that. You
live and learn.
It's quite a general belief, as far as I can see, among the general
population and the media. I do have a friend (English) who has stopped
Sorry, you've pressed one of my buttons ... (flat Earth anyone?)
Post by Jo Lonergan
having migraines since they converted from wifi to a lan at home. But
Double-blind tests needed again ...
Post by Jo Lonergan
it's quite hard really to avoid wifi these days, from your neighbours.
And is it different from ordinary radio transmissions?
No. Wifi uses frequencies around 2.4 GHz - that's 2400 MHz - so shorter
wavelengths (bit over a centimetre) than yer normal radio (Band II, i.
e. the "FM" band, is about 3 metres, normal telly - analogue and digital
- is bands IV and V, around 400 to 900 MHz so a few tens of
centimetres). It's the same band as the microwave oven. When I first
paid attention to microwave ovens, the standard was 650 watts and a
cheap one was 500 watts; consider how much of that a half per cent leak
would be (especially as the norm these days seems to be 800W or more).
Yer normal wifi link is about a tenth of a watt - the "really powerful"
ones are about a watt.
Almost all the discussions about safety and radio signals seem to home
in on the power factors and ignore the frequencies involved. I'd
suggest that if we have a weakness, not to radio frequency
transmissions but for one reason or another, to specific frequencies
or bands then the power required to do damage might be a considerably
less important factor. Consider VLF underwater transmissions from the
(US?) Navy which have been blamed for disorienting whales. Or MRI
scanners that exploit the fact that cells behave in funny ways if you
subject them to certain conditions.

Nick O
--
real e-mail is nickodell (at) bigfoot (dot) com
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-18 08:12:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@4ax.com>, Nick Odell
<***@ntlworld.com.invalid> writes
[]
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
No. Wifi uses frequencies around 2.4 GHz - that's 2400 MHz - so shorter
wavelengths (bit over a centimetre) than yer normal radio (Band II, i.
e. the "FM" band, is about 3 metres, normal telly - analogue and digital
- is bands IV and V, around 400 to 900 MHz so a few tens of
centimetres). It's the same band as the microwave oven. When I first
paid attention to microwave ovens, the standard was 650 watts and a
cheap one was 500 watts; consider how much of that a half per cent leak
would be (especially as the norm these days seems to be 800W or more).
Yer normal wifi link is about a tenth of a watt - the "really powerful"
ones are about a watt.
Almost all the discussions about safety and radio signals seem to home
in on the power factors and ignore the frequencies involved. I'd
suggest that if we have a weakness, not to radio frequency
transmissions but for one reason or another, to specific frequencies
or bands then the power required to do damage might be a considerably
(Part of) my point above was that there's likely to be more 2.4 GHz
(same band) leaking from your average microwave oven than the total
coming from your average router.
Post by Nick Odell
less important factor. Consider VLF underwater transmissions from the
(US?) Navy which have been blamed for disorienting whales. Or MRI
I hadn't heard that one; it does sound plausible, though I suspect hard
to prove. (Also the frequencies, though very low in electromagnetic
terms, are very high in audio terms, and thus a long way above what
whales use themselves.) Incidentally, our navy use them too - they're
the only signals that penetrate to any significant depth into seawater,
so the only way you can communicate (slowly!) with submarines.

I'm not dismissing the possibility though.
Post by Nick Odell
scanners that exploit the fact that cells behave in funny ways if you
subject them to certain conditions.
They rely on the _magnetic_ effect, not electromagnetic waves - that's
why they are such humongous pieces of equipment. (I'm not even sure what
frequency band they _do_ operate in.) (I think it's atoms rather than
cells.)
Post by Nick Odell
Nick O
Don't get me wrong: I am willing to admit there are adverse effects from
all sorts of things, including ones we don't know about. I do, however,
despair of the general public (egged on by the media) and their refusal
to be scientific about the matter - especially when they turn mob ugly
(mobs tend to be even less intelligent; remember when they attacked a
paediatrician?). It is of course unfortunate that often the only people
with the money to do proper trials are trade bodies, who usually have a
vested interest, so can't (always) be trusted; and that we are now as
litigious a society as America, such that "erring on the safe side" can
have ludicrous effects. (Actually, that last one is somewhat
significant: with the ever-present threat of litigation, these
technologies are _still_ around, so would the companies involved really
risk it?)

Try this: hold some inactive object - an (inactive) electric razor, say,
or the back of a mains plug, or even an inactive mobile 'phone - to your
ear for a few minutes. Is your ear now warm?

Sorry to have done a rant - it's long pent-up re[*] about the way
science and technology is (still) regarded in this country.

* Somewhat deflated by the fact that the word I was going to use popped
out of my head (no, I'm not using wifi!) just as I was about to use it.
Rebellion, resistance, something like that.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

There's no way of bringing these people to moderation until you recognise there
are reasons - not excuses - for even something as monstrous as 9/11. -
John le Carre, in Radio Times 17-23 January 2004
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-19 01:04:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message <***@soft255.demon.co.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver
(John)" <***@soft255.demon.co.uk> writes
[]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Sorry to have done a rant - it's long pent-up re[*] about the way
science and technology is (still) regarded in this country.
* Somewhat deflated by the fact that the word I was going to use popped
out of my head (no, I'm not using wifi!) just as I was about to use it.
Rebellion, resistance, something like that.
Resentment.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

Nothing fixes a thing so intensely in the memory as the wish to forget it.
-Michel de Montaigne, essayist (1533-1592)
Captain Paralytic
2008-03-18 12:08:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Yer normal wifi link is about a tenth of a watt - the "really powerful"
ones are about a watt.
Is there much point in having a high power WiFi AP, when the devices
to be used on are typically low power? Whilst you could receive the
WiFi signal from a greater distance, your device's transmissions would
not have sufficient power to reah the AP.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2008-03-19 01:07:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Yer normal wifi link is about a tenth of a watt - the "really powerful"
ones are about a watt.
Is there much point in having a high power WiFi AP, when the devices
to be used on are typically low power? Whilst you could receive the
WiFi signal from a greater distance, your device's transmissions would
not have sufficient power to reah the AP.
Very good point. (AP is access point, for 'RATs who were wondering.) I'm
just quoting (sort of) what I've seen in PC World, that fount of
knowledge.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for thoughts on PCs. **

Essex home for sale, œ59,950: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/

Nothing fixes a thing so intensely in the memory as the wish to forget it.
-Michel de Montaigne, essayist (1533-1592)
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
2008-03-19 14:34:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
In message
Post by Captain Paralytic
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Yer normal wifi link is about a tenth of a watt - the "really powerful"
ones are about a watt.
Is there much point in having a high power WiFi AP, when the devices
to be used on are typically low power? Whilst you could receive the
WiFi signal from a greater distance, your device's transmissions would
not have sufficient power to reah the AP.
Very good point. (AP is access point, for 'RATs who were wondering.)
I'm just quoting (sort of) what I've seen in PC World, that fount of
knowledge.
--
Gilliver should know better. Increased power out can easily be accompanied
by increased receiver sensitivity. I've seen RX numbers of a range of
more than 20db (100 to 1 power ratio).

Communication range is dependent all of on transmitter power, receiver
sensitivity, and local interference at each end.

73, doug
chris mcmillan
2008-03-17 20:59:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Plusnet
Post by Jo Lonergan
Post by Penny
Some LE bulbs warm up faster than others - like Ted, when I find I have the
wrong one in the wrong place I move them around. Not much help if you've
just bought a bunch all the same, I'm afraid. What I must try and remember
to do is make a note somewhere which brands get bright almost straight
away.
Osram did well in a test last year by the Swiss consumer programme.
The winning bulb overall, the Osram EL Longlife, took 10 seconds to
reach maximum brightness, as did the Migros own-brand that was second.
The third placed, from Ikea, took 50 seconds to brighten up.
I've just had a look at the original test report (in German)
http://www.energieeffizienz.ch/files/Sparlampen_07_Schlussbericht_191107_2.pdf
Three Ikea models were well-placed, and reached maximum efficiency in
under a minute, but a fourth took at least 30 mins. How are we to
know, when we just go shopping without a printout?
Post by Plusnet
Did they also look at the colour cast of the lamps?
"Code 827" is recommended for a warm white colour.
They did report that bulbs with a life of 6000 to 8000 hours should
only be used when they aren't being turned on and off a lot, optimally
burning for at least an hour at a time. Otherwise their life is
radically reduced.
Also the stick-shaped ones are better than the traditional bulb shape.
They recommend Power Factor Correction, whatever that may be, if
you're sensitive to electromagnetic fields. This is something that
people seem to be more concerned about here in Switzerland than in the
UK.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=BuyGuide/LightBulbBG.html#1
Post by Plusnet
We have one type which gives out an adequate amount of light, be anyone
sitting beneath it looks like the living dead.
And they never mention these things when they're trying to get us all
to change. Or that if you break one they give off mercury vapour, and
you should leave the room for a bit while it disperses.
Change them to conventional when you're decorating too. One of our big
ones took a tumble and died not long after we first had them when our
hall was being decorated.

Sincerely Chris
--
Chris McMillan
http://www.chinavision.org.uk/
http://www.oneplusone.org.cn 
mower man
2008-03-18 23:43:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs for my dining room as
the lights in there tend to stay on for quite a time.
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Don't use "low energy" bulbs - use LEDs - instant start, VERY low energy
usage and VERY long life. GU10 or whatever.


---
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Virus Database (VPS): 080318-1, 18/03/2008
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Captain Paralytic
2008-03-19 10:27:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by mower man
Post by Captain Paralytic
I recently bought a bunch of low energy bulbs for my dining room as
the lights in there tend to stay on for quite a time.
But here's the rub. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes for them to
reach full brightness. If I want to go in there to get something from
a cupboard, I need to know in advance so that I can turn the lights on
and give them a chance to get to full brightness, before I can see
well enough to do what I need to do.
How do others cope with this?
Don't use "low energy" bulbs - use LEDs - instant start, VERY low energy
usage and VERY long life. GU10 or whatever.
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 080318-1, 18/03/2008
Tested on: 3/18/2008 23:43:26
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.http://www.avast.com
No help with SES mains light fittings though
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