Discussion:
Mothering Sunday
(too old to reply)
agsmith578688@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
2018-03-11 13:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and for whom this is a trying day.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-11 15:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those
who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and
for whom this is a trying day.
And to those who - whether for justifiable reasons (including, but far
from limited to, the above) or for no reason - dislike the idea/concept
altogether.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

... referendum coverage is available with subtitles for the deaf, audio
description for the blind, and ITV for the thick. - Dead Ringers, 2016-6-25
Jenny M Benson
2018-03-11 15:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those
who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and
for whom this is a trying day.
And to those who - whether for justifiable reasons (including, but far
from limited to, the above) or for no reason - dislike the idea/concept
altogether.
Which concept? "Mother's Day" as it is so often named nowadays is
really an import of the celebration of that that name in the US. In the
UK it is more correctly "Mothering Sunday" and is/was the day when the
congregations of outlying chapels went "home" to their Mother Church.
Live-in servants were given the day off to allow them to visit their
families and accompany them to church.
--
Jenny M Benson
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-11 16:20:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those
who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and
for whom this is a trying day.
And to those who - whether for justifiable reasons (including, but
far from limited to, the above) or for no reason - dislike the
idea/concept altogether.
Which concept? "Mother's Day" as it is so often named nowadays is
really an import of the celebration of that that name in the US. In
the UK it is more correctly "Mothering Sunday" and is/was the day when
the congregations of outlying chapels went "home" to their Mother
Church. Live-in servants were given the day off to allow them to visit
their families and accompany them to church.
Fascinating if true - so, had _nothing_ to do with any sort of
celebration of, thanksgiving for, etcetera, motherhood as such? I'd
always assumed it _was_ a celebration of mothers, originally religious,
despite the subsequent commercialisation.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You cannot simply assume someone is honest just because they are not an MP.
Btms
2018-03-11 16:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those
who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and
for whom this is a trying day.
And to those who - whether for justifiable reasons (including, but
far from limited to, the above) or for no reason - dislike the
idea/concept altogether.
Which concept? "Mother's Day" as it is so often named nowadays is
really an import of the celebration of that that name in the US. In
the UK it is more correctly "Mothering Sunday" and is/was the day when
the congregations of outlying chapels went "home" to their Mother
Church. Live-in servants were given the day off to allow them to visit
their families and accompany them to church.
Fascinating if true - so, had _nothing_ to do with any sort of
celebration of, thanksgiving for, etcetera, motherhood as such? I'd
always assumed it _was_ a celebration of mothers, originally religious,
despite the subsequent commercialisation.
I assure you Jenny is right. Iirc the Middle English poem Piers Ploughman*
references Mother Church in this context. Bimbam.

*not spelled like this in middle english also iirc.
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Kate B
2018-03-11 17:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Btms
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those
who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and
for whom this is a trying day.
And to those who - whether for justifiable reasons (including, but
far from limited to, the above) or for no reason - dislike the
idea/concept altogether.
Which concept? "Mother's Day" as it is so often named nowadays is
really an import of the celebration of that that name in the US. In
the UK it is more correctly "Mothering Sunday" and is/was the day when
the congregations of outlying chapels went "home" to their Mother
Church. Live-in servants were given the day off to allow them to visit
their families and accompany them to church.
Fascinating if true - so, had _nothing_ to do with any sort of
celebration of, thanksgiving for, etcetera, motherhood as such? I'd
always assumed it _was_ a celebration of mothers, originally religious,
despite the subsequent commercialisation.
I assure you Jenny is right. Iirc the Middle English poem Piers Ploughman*
references Mother Church in this context. Bimbam.
*not spelled like this in middle english also iirc.
Right but not the whole story. Why should Mothering Sunday be this
precise Sunday, and not - as the Germans and subsequently the Americans
celebrate it - in May, when flowers are cheaper and journeys easier?
March 25th is Lady Day, the feast of the Annunciation, quintessential
Christian feast of the Mother. The third Sunday in Lent often coincides
or is very near Lady Day (though not this year, when Easter is very
early) and I think this is why it was chosen as a day for celebrating
motherhood in all its forms. Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established, but I expect
it's all connected.

'Mother Church' is an old, old concept, older than Langland - did you
mean that Piers Plowman has a reference to returning to one's mother or
mother church on a particular day? I don't remember that - but it is
about forty years sice I last looked at it :)
--
Kate B
London
agsmith578688@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
2018-03-11 17:30:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sunday, 11 March 2018 17:18:07 UTC, Kate B wrote:

<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Kate B
2018-03-11 21:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
--
Kate B
London
Mike Headon
2018-03-12 11:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the penitential
period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
--
Mike Headon
R69S R850R
IIIc IIIg FT FTn FT2 EOS450D
e-mail: mike dot headon at enn tee ell world dot com

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Kate B
2018-03-12 12:22:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Headon
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the penitential
period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I remember
blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you haven't got old
ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And have they then also
abolished black for funerals and Good Friday? That would really be a
pity, there's a special solemnity about black. My mother's funeral and
memorial masses were both conducted in black, but that's a few years ago
now.
--
Kate B
London
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-12 12:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Mike Headon
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the
penitential period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
How about the CoE?
Post by Kate B
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
+1. It was one of the few distractions: I remember a nicely-made
circular chart (I think it might have been a wooden wheel) with coloured
segments, at the back of the school chapel (Anglican), showing the
colours for various seasons/occasions.
Post by Kate B
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I
remember blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you
haven't got old ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And have
they then also abolished black for funerals and Good Friday? That would
really be a pity, there's a special solemnity about black. My mother's
funeral and memorial masses were both conducted in black, but that's a
few years ago now.
I think our vicar mostly was in white, but with a sort of broad strap
(stole?) - and/or it might have been just a coloured collar - to match
the chart. (1970s.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm a self-made man, thereby demonstrating once again the perils of unskilled
labor..." - Harlan Ellison
Nick Odell
2018-03-12 12:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Mike Headon
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the
penitential period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I remember
blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you haven't got old
ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And have they then also
abolished black for funerals and Good Friday? That would really be a
pity, there's a special solemnity about black. My mother's funeral and
memorial masses were both conducted in black, but that's a few years ago
now.
Do you happen to know if it is celebrated in France? Or for that matter
Paraguay? From what I understand, it used to be Europe-wide but now,
although more widely spread, seems to have become mainly anglophone. As
fas as I can tell, out here, where it might be celebrated at all, it
ties in with the Latin American mothers' day which falls in the Latin
American spring[1] but has no special place in the church calendar.

Nick
[1]Falls in the Spring: I rather like that[2]
[2]Oh very well then: please yourselves
Kate B
2018-03-12 15:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Kate B
Post by Mike Headon
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the
penitential period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I
remember blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you
haven't got old ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And have
they then also abolished black for funerals and Good Friday? That
would really be a pity, there's a special solemnity about black. My
mother's funeral and memorial masses were both conducted in black, but
that's a few years ago now.
Do you happen to know if it is celebrated in France? Or for that matter
Paraguay?  From what I understand, it used to be Europe-wide but now,
although more widely spread, seems to have become mainly anglophone. As
fas as I can tell, out here, where it might be celebrated at all, it
ties in with the Latin American mothers' day which falls in the Latin
American spring[1] but has no special place in the church calendar.
Nick
[1]Falls in the Spring: I rather like that[2]
[2]Oh very well then: please yourselves
Very nice, Nick, I liked it. You are never quite alone on umra.

Did you mean Mothering Sunday/ Mother's Day? The entirely secular
American Mother's Day/ Jour des Meres/ Muttertag is certainly still
celebrated in May in France and Germany too. I don't know about Spain or
Italy or anywhere else. Paraguay apparently has one, on a completely
different day to everyone else
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother%27s_Day

But only the Brits (and oddly, the Nigerians) celebrate Mothering Sunday.
--
Kate B
London
BrritSki
2018-03-12 16:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Kate B
Post by Mike Headon
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the
penitential period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I
remember blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you
haven't got old ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And
have they then also abolished black for funerals and Good Friday?
That would really be a pity, there's a special solemnity about black.
My mother's funeral and memorial masses were both conducted in black,
but that's a few years ago now.
Do you happen to know if it is celebrated in France? Or for that
matter Paraguay?  From what I understand, it used to be Europe-wide
but now, although more widely spread, seems to have become mainly
anglophone. As fas as I can tell, out here, where it might be
celebrated at all, it ties in with the Latin American mothers' day
which falls in the Latin American spring[1] but has no special place
in the church calendar.
Nick
[1]Falls in the Spring: I rather like that[2]
[2]Oh very well then: please yourselves
Very nice, Nick, I liked it. You are never quite alone on umra.
<languid wave>
Post by Kate B
Did you mean Mothering Sunday/ Mother's Day? The entirely secular
American Mother's Day/ Jour des Meres/ Muttertag is certainly still
celebrated in May in France and Germany too. I don't know about Spain or
Italy ...
It is celebrated in Italy as is Fathers Day, but both seem to be just a
commercial enterprise and they're on different days to UK. May 13 for
Mothers day this year...
Chris McMillan
2018-03-16 14:47:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Kate B
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Kate B
Post by Mike Headon
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the
penitential period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I
remember blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you
haven't got old ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And
have they then also abolished black for funerals and Good Friday?
That would really be a pity, there's a special solemnity about black.
My mother's funeral and memorial masses were both conducted in black,
but that's a few years ago now.
Do you happen to know if it is celebrated in France? Or for that
matter Paraguay?  From what I understand, it used to be Europe-wide
but now, although more widely spread, seems to have become mainly
anglophone. As fas as I can tell, out here, where it might be
celebrated at all, it ties in with the Latin American mothers' day
which falls in the Latin American spring[1] but has no special place
in the church calendar.
Nick
[1]Falls in the Spring: I rather like that[2]
[2]Oh very well then: please yourselves
Very nice, Nick, I liked it. You are never quite alone on umra.
<languid wave>
Post by Kate B
Did you mean Mothering Sunday/ Mother's Day? The entirely secular
American Mother's Day/ Jour des Meres/ Muttertag is certainly still
celebrated in May in France and Germany too. I don't know about Spain or
Italy ...
It is celebrated in Italy as is Fathers Day, but both seem to be just a
commercial enterprise and they're on different days to UK. May 13 for
Mothers day this year...
Mothers day is celebrated at different times around the world.
http://chartsbin.com/view/jqg#main-desc

There’s a pretty map on the site.

Sincerely Chris

Nick Odell
2018-03-12 20:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Kate B
Post by Mike Headon
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the
penitential period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I
remember blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you
haven't got old ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And
have they then also abolished black for funerals and Good Friday?
That would really be a pity, there's a special solemnity about black.
My mother's funeral and memorial masses were both conducted in black,
but that's a few years ago now.
Do you happen to know if it is celebrated in France? Or for that
matter Paraguay?  From what I understand, it used to be Europe-wide
but now, although more widely spread, seems to have become mainly
anglophone. As fas as I can tell, out here, where it might be
celebrated at all, it ties in with the Latin American mothers' day
which falls in the Latin American spring[1] but has no special place
in the church calendar.
Nick
[1]Falls in the Spring: I rather like that[2]
[2]Oh very well then: please yourselves
Very nice, Nick, I liked it. You are never quite alone on umra.
Did you mean Mothering Sunday/ Mother's Day? The entirely secular
American Mother's Day/ Jour des Meres/ Muttertag is certainly still
celebrated in May in France and Germany too. I don't know about Spain or
Italy or anywhere else. Paraguay apparently has one, on a completely
different day to everyone else
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother%27s_Day
But only the Brits (and oddly, the Nigerians) celebrate Mothering Sunday.
I'll see your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother's_Day

And raise my https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothering_Sunday

where it suggests episcopalian churches in many English-speaking
countries celebrate Mothering Sunday and ones in Mainland Europe used to.

Nick
Kate B
2018-03-12 20:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Kate B
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Kate B
Post by Mike Headon
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and
Laetare Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the
penitential period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I
remember blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you
haven't got old ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And
have they then also abolished black for funerals and Good Friday?
That would really be a pity, there's a special solemnity about
black. My mother's funeral and memorial masses were both conducted
in black, but that's a few years ago now.
Do you happen to know if it is celebrated in France? Or for that
matter Paraguay?  From what I understand, it used to be Europe-wide
but now, although more widely spread, seems to have become mainly
anglophone. As fas as I can tell, out here, where it might be
celebrated at all, it ties in with the Latin American mothers' day
which falls in the Latin American spring[1] but has no special place
in the church calendar.
Nick
[1]Falls in the Spring: I rather like that[2]
[2]Oh very well then: please yourselves
Very nice, Nick, I liked it. You are never quite alone on umra.
Did you mean Mothering Sunday/ Mother's Day? The entirely secular
American Mother's Day/ Jour des Meres/ Muttertag is certainly still
celebrated in May in France and Germany too. I don't know about Spain
or Italy or anywhere else. Paraguay apparently has one, on a
completely different day to everyone else
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother%27s_Day
But only the Brits (and oddly, the Nigerians) celebrate Mothering Sunday.
I'll see your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother's_Day
And raise my https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothering_Sunday
where it suggests episcopalian churches in many English-speaking
countries celebrate Mothering Sunday and ones in Mainland Europe used to.
Aha, well, that will be something to do with Mother Churches, I suppose
;) (down, Bottoms!). The churches I go to on the continong tend to be
Catholic or Lutheran, not Anglican. But none of my Episcopalian American
friends celebrate Mothering Sunday.
--
Kate B
London
Fenny
2018-03-12 18:27:12 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 12:44:20 +0000, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Do you happen to know if it is celebrated in France? Or for that matter
Paraguay? From what I understand, it used to be Europe-wide but now,
although more widely spread, seems to have become mainly anglophone. As
fas as I can tell, out here, where it might be celebrated at all, it
ties in with the Latin American mothers' day which falls in the Latin
American spring[1] but has no special place in the church calendar.
I had to read Madame Bovary for A level. There's a bit where Charles
brings their daughter to see Emma on the mid-Lent feast. Emma has
been ill (depressed because of being dumped by one of her bits on the
side, IIRC) and the child has been farmed out to a foster nurse. But
he brings some flowers and presents "from the child". So I always got
the impression that there was some sort of acknowledgement of visiting
mothers (as the English servants used to do when they got the day off
to go back to their mother church).

But I could very well have misinterpreted all of this and had nugger
all actual teaching about the subject from the woman who was paid to
sit at the front of our class during lessons.

But I do know that Mother's Day in France is currently celebrated at a
different time from the mid Lent feast.
--
Fenny
agsmith578688@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
2018-03-12 14:43:59 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, 12 March 2018 12:22:16 UTC, Kate B wrote:

<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Post by Mike Headon
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I remember
blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you haven't got old
ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And have they then also
abolished black for funerals and Good Friday? That would really be a
pity, there's a special solemnity about black. My mother's funeral and
memorial masses were both conducted in black, but that's a few years ago
now.
My son tells me that pink/rose vestments are used in the (Anglican) church of St. Magnus the Martyr in London.
Mike Headon
2018-03-13 11:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Mike Headon
Post by Kate B
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
<snipped>
Post by Kate B
Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established
Pink vestments? I'd not heard of those.
Rose, to be technical. Used on Gaudete Sunday in Advent and Laetare
Sunday in Lent. Not sure if at any other time, though.
Third in Advent and fourth in Lent. The Introits (opening prayers)
suggest a brief interlude of rejoicing in the middle of the
penitential period.
The only vestment colours (RC Church) now are white, red, green, and purple.
Is that so? What a shame. I liked the priests in their rose-coloured
drapes :) Are you still allowed to use them if you have them? I remember
blue ones, too, for feasts of Our Lady. I suppose if you haven't got old
ones, new ones are very expensive to acquire. And have they then also
abolished black for funerals and Good Friday? That would really be a
pity, there's a special solemnity about black. My mother's funeral and
memorial masses were both conducted in black, but that's a few years ago
now.
Yes, black has gone. Funny, I don't think I ever saw blue, and that was
at a strict RC boarding school.
--
Mike Headon
R69S R850R
IIIc IIIg FT FTn FT2 EOS450D
e-mail: mike dot headon at enn tee ell world dot com

---
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Btms
2018-03-11 18:21:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Post by Btms
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those
who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and
for whom this is a trying day.
And to those who - whether for justifiable reasons (including, but
far from limited to, the above) or for no reason - dislike the
idea/concept altogether.
Which concept? "Mother's Day" as it is so often named nowadays is
really an import of the celebration of that that name in the US. In
the UK it is more correctly "Mothering Sunday" and is/was the day when
the congregations of outlying chapels went "home" to their Mother
Church. Live-in servants were given the day off to allow them to visit
their families and accompany them to church.
Fascinating if true - so, had _nothing_ to do with any sort of
celebration of, thanksgiving for, etcetera, motherhood as such? I'd
always assumed it _was_ a celebration of mothers, originally religious,
despite the subsequent commercialisation.
I assure you Jenny is right. Iirc the Middle English poem Piers Ploughman*
references Mother Church in this context. Bimbam.
*not spelled like this in middle english also iirc.
Right but not the whole story. Why should Mothering Sunday be this
precise Sunday, and not - as the Germans and subsequently the Americans
celebrate it - in May, when flowers are cheaper and journeys easier?
March 25th is Lady Day, the feast of the Annunciation, quintessential
Christian feast of the Mother. The third Sunday in Lent often coincides
or is very near Lady Day (though not this year, when Easter is very
early) and I think this is why it was chosen as a day for celebrating
motherhood in all its forms. Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established, but I expect
it's all connected.
'Mother Church' is an old, old concept, older than Langland - did you
mean that Piers Plowman has a reference to returning to one's mother or
mother church on a particular day? I don't remember that - but it is
about forty years sice I last looked at it :)
I vaguely recall reference to Piers returning to Mother Church and the date
linked to Easter. I suppose, if still alive Mother probably lived in much
the same area as the Mother Church. Didn’t Mother Churches changed to
Minster churches at some point?
--
BTMS - Equine Advisor Extraordinaire.
Kate B
2018-03-11 21:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Btms
Post by Kate B
Post by Btms
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those
who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and
for whom this is a trying day.
And to those who - whether for justifiable reasons (including, but
far from limited to, the above) or for no reason - dislike the
idea/concept altogether.
Which concept? "Mother's Day" as it is so often named nowadays is
really an import of the celebration of that that name in the US. In
the UK it is more correctly "Mothering Sunday" and is/was the day when
the congregations of outlying chapels went "home" to their Mother
Church. Live-in servants were given the day off to allow them to visit
their families and accompany them to church.
Fascinating if true - so, had _nothing_ to do with any sort of
celebration of, thanksgiving for, etcetera, motherhood as such? I'd
always assumed it _was_ a celebration of mothers, originally religious,
despite the subsequent commercialisation.
I assure you Jenny is right. Iirc the Middle English poem Piers Ploughman*
references Mother Church in this context. Bimbam.
*not spelled like this in middle english also iirc.
Right but not the whole story. Why should Mothering Sunday be this
precise Sunday, and not - as the Germans and subsequently the Americans
celebrate it - in May, when flowers are cheaper and journeys easier?
March 25th is Lady Day, the feast of the Annunciation, quintessential
Christian feast of the Mother. The third Sunday in Lent often coincides
or is very near Lady Day (though not this year, when Easter is very
early) and I think this is why it was chosen as a day for celebrating
motherhood in all its forms. Not sure when the pink vestments for this
day (as opposed to the purple of Lent) became established, but I expect
it's all connected.
'Mother Church' is an old, old concept, older than Langland - did you
mean that Piers Plowman has a reference to returning to one's mother or
mother church on a particular day? I don't remember that - but it is
about forty years sice I last looked at it :)
I vaguely recall reference to Piers returning to Mother Church and the date
linked to Easter. I suppose, if still alive Mother probably lived in much
the same area as the Mother Church. Didn’t Mother Churches changed to
Minster churches at some point?
A Minster is simply a monastic church. They almost certainly founded
daughter churches, but I'm not aware of them ever having been called
Mother Churches. The concept of Mother Church is something else entirely.
--
Kate B
London
Clive Arthur
2018-03-11 17:29:01 UTC
Permalink
On 11/03/2018 16:47, Btms wrote:
<snip>>
Post by Btms
I assure you Jenny is right. Iirc the Middle English poem Piers Ploughman*
references Mother Church in this context. Bimbam.
*not spelled like this in middle english also iirc.
*He was out to lunch. (Did I get that in before Mike?)

Cheers
--
Clive
Mike
2018-03-11 18:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>>
Post by Btms
I assure you Jenny is right. Iirc the Middle English poem Piers Ploughman*
references Mother Church in this context. Bimbam.
*not spelled like this in middle english also iirc.
*He was out to lunch. (Did I get that in before Mike?)
Cheers
Sorry, too busy eating a bread roll with a chunk of Cheddar cheese with
pickled onions and chutney....
--
Toodle Pip
Flop
2018-03-12 09:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those
who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and
for whom this is a trying day.
And to those who - whether for justifiable reasons (including, but far
from limited to, the above) or for no reason - dislike the
idea/concept altogether.
Which concept?  "Mother's Day" as it is so often named nowadays is
really an import of the celebration of that that name in the US.  In the
UK it is more correctly "Mothering Sunday" and is/was the day when the
congregations of outlying chapels went "home" to their Mother Church.
Live-in servants were given the day off to allow them to visit their
families and accompany them to church.
Slightly more complex....

Mothering Sunday was also known as Mid-Lenten Sunday or Refreshment Sunday.

The first is self evident.

The second is an expansion of Jenny's explanation in that, as well as
releasing servants for the day or weekend, it was the start of spring
and hens began laying more frequently. The servants were allowed to use
up any reserves of eggs to bake a cake and take home. Therein lies the
'Mother' as opposed to 'mothering'.

Possibly, picking flowers on the way home was also involved.
--
Flop

“I needed a password eight characters long so I picked Snow White and
the Seven Dwarves.”
Chris McMillan
2018-03-12 10:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flop
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those
who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and
for whom this is a trying day.
And to those who - whether for justifiable reasons (including, but far
from limited to, the above) or for no reason - dislike the
idea/concept altogether.
Which concept?  "Mother's Day" as it is so often named nowadays is
really an import of the celebration of that that name in the US.  In the
UK it is more correctly "Mothering Sunday" and is/was the day when the
congregations of outlying chapels went "home" to their Mother Church.
Live-in servants were given the day off to allow them to visit their
families and accompany them to church.
Slightly more complex....
Mothering Sunday was also known as Mid-Lenten Sunday or Refreshment Sunday.
The first is self evident.
The second is an expansion of Jenny's explanation in that, as well as
releasing servants for the day or weekend, it was the start of spring
and hens began laying more frequently. The servants were allowed to use
up any reserves of eggs to bake a cake and take home. Therein lies the
'Mother' as opposed to 'mothering'.
Possibly, picking flowers on the way home was also involved.
Isn’t that where picking violets came into it?

Sincerely Chris
Penny
2018-03-13 01:36:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:57:43 GMT, Chris McMillan
Isn’t that where picking violets came into it?
I received a short notice invitation to meet d#1 (of Sheffield) in
Shrewsbury for lunch yesterday. She doesn't usually propose such short
notice things and it disturbed me slightly* but it seemed like a lovely
idea so we did. So we enjoyed our smothering Monday *on* a Monday and after
our lunch (I paid, it was half the price of her train ticket) we were
reminiscing about smothering Mondays past and I reminded her I had always
said I didn't want or need purchased gifts or cards on that day, a bunch of
violets was the traditional offering and the garden was full of them. She
couldn't remember that but did recall going down to the farm shop with her
dad to buy a bunch of daffs for me. I have never received a bunch of
violets - it takes a long time to pick a decent bunch of such little
flowers.

*Not too disturbing really, although she did want a chat with her mum about
a few things and has been very busy lately organising a University
presentation at Westminster last month and a conference next so decided to
use one strike day for herself.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Clive Arthur
2018-03-12 16:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com Tony Smith Prestbury
Best wishes to all the mothers amongst us, but sympathy too to those who have wished to be mothers but not been granted that blessing and for whom this is a trying day.
Only trying once a year is possibly the root of the problem.

Cheers
--
Clive
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