Discussion:
Not really Plane Sailing?
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Mike McMillan
2021-07-14 07:28:34 UTC
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I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
understand it, the economics of hairyplanes requires that amortisation
takes well over 30 years from commissioning date, so: What happens to the
aircraft manufacturing industry now? I’m sure that we are unable to just
pick up an order book and say to the like of Boeing err… those 20
wide-bodied jets we have on order …. Just put electric motors in them
rather than kerosene guzzling jet engines will you please? My Bind is
Moggling - but I’m sure UMRA can set my mind at rest please!
--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan
Chris B
2021-07-14 08:00:38 UTC
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Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
understand it, the economics of hairyplanes requires that amortisation
takes well over 30 years from commissioning date, so: What happens to the
aircraft manufacturing industry now? I’m sure that we are unable to just
pick up an order book and say to the like of Boeing err… those 20
wide-bodied jets we have on order …. Just put electric motors in them
rather than kerosene guzzling jet engines will you please? My Bind is
Moggling - but I’m sure UMRA can set my mind at rest please!
I suspect the marketing term you are missing is carbon neutral - not
zero emission. Run jet engines on bio fuel (technically possible today
with relatively minor - in the big scheme of things - tweaks to the
engines/fuel system)) and hey presto carbon neutral. Don't ask about
habitat destruction to grow palm oil and 101 other questions though.....
--
Chris B (News)
Chris B
2021-07-14 08:08:25 UTC
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Post by Chris B
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
understand it, the economics of hairyplanes requires that amortisation
takes well over 30 years from commissioning date, so: What happens to the
aircraft manufacturing industry now? I’m sure that we are unable to just
pick up an order book and say to the like of Boeing err… those 20
wide-bodied jets we have on order …. Just put electric motors in them
rather than  kerosene guzzling jet engines will you please? My Bind is
Moggling - but I’m sure UMRA can set my mind at rest please!
I suspect the marketing term you are missing is carbon neutral - not
zero emission.  Run jet engines on bio fuel (technically possible today
with relatively minor - in the big scheme of things - tweaks to the
engines/fuel system)) and hey presto carbon neutral.  Don't ask about
habitat destruction to grow palm oil and 101 other questions though.....
Well ok not quite 100% palm oil/biofuel yet but certainly working on it
and engines have run with a considerable % of biofuel mixed with more
regular fuel.

Here is one such link and there are many more
https://www.energyvoice.com/other-news/182988/virgin-atlantic-operates-first-flight-powered-by-new-biofuel/
--
Chris B (News)
Mike McMillan
2021-07-14 12:40:19 UTC
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Post by Chris B
Post by Chris B
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
understand it, the economics of hairyplanes requires that amortisation
takes well over 30 years from commissioning date, so: What happens to the
aircraft manufacturing industry now? I’m sure that we are unable to just
pick up an order book and say to the like of Boeing err… those 20
wide-bodied jets we have on order …. Just put electric motors in them
rather than  kerosene guzzling jet engines will you please? My Bind is
Moggling - but I’m sure UMRA can set my mind at rest please!
I suspect the marketing term you are missing is carbon neutral - not
zero emission.  Run jet engines on bio fuel (technically possible today
with relatively minor - in the big scheme of things - tweaks to the
engines/fuel system)) and hey presto carbon neutral.  Don't ask about
habitat destruction to grow palm oil and 101 other questions though.....
Well ok not quite 100% palm oil/biofuel yet but certainly working on it
and engines have run with a considerable % of biofuel mixed with more
regular fuel.
Here is one such link and there are many more
https://www.energyvoice.com/other-news/182988/virgin-atlantic-operates-first-flight-powered-by-new-biofuel/
Well, yes, an improvement but still not carbon neutral is it - there seems
to be quite a few weasels in there…?
--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan
n***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2021-07-15 04:45:27 UTC
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On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 09:00:38 +0100, Chris B wrote:

I suspect you're also missing carbon offset. Each mile of flight will be
offset by one of the carbon capture possibilities (I don't know which -
mostly planting trees but also direct capture and storage).

Steph.
*Date:* Wed, 14 Jul 2021 09:00:38 +0100
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I
wonder? As I
understand it, the economics of hairyplanes requires that
amortisation
takes well over 30 years from commissioning date, so: What
happens to the
aircraft manufacturing industry now? I_m sure that we are unable
to just
pick up an order book and say to the like of Boeing err_ those 20
wide-bodied jets we have on order _. Just put electric motors in
them
rather than kerosene guzzling jet engines will you please? My Bind is
Moggling - but I_m sure UMRA can set my mind at rest please!
I suspect the marketing term you are missing is carbon neutral -
not zero emission. Run jet engines on bio fuel (technically
possible today with relatively minor - in the big scheme of things
- tweaks to the engines/fuel system)) and hey presto carbon
neutral. Don't ask about habitat destruction to grow palm oil and
101 other questions though.....
--
Chris B (News)
Nick Odell
2021-07-14 16:18:26 UTC
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Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 07:28:34 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
understand it, the economics of hairyplanes requires that amortisation
takes well over 30 years from commissioning date, so: What happens to the
aircraft manufacturing industry now? I’m sure that we are unable to just
pick up an order book and say to the like of Boeing err… those 20
wide-bodied jets we have on order …. Just put electric motors in them
rather than kerosene guzzling jet engines will you please? My Bind is
Moggling - but I’m sure UMRA can set my mind at rest please!
Not all aviation is long-haul four-engine stuff, in fact a huge number
of really big airlines are mothballed for the foreseeable future
because there is no foreseeable future for them since Covid-19 caused
the collapse of the market.

Step in, lots of small planes making short, non-international flights.
EasyJet have added a dozen UK internal routes this year, just to keep
their planes flying. They've been criticised because they create far
more carbon than the equivalent train journeys whilst the door-to-door
journey time is often longer than the train and in some instances more
expensive too.
<https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/14/trains-far-greener-but-much-more-costly-than-planes-analysis-finds>

What if these flights could be electric? Well, they could be. EVation
is working on an all-electric passenger plane that will fly from
conventional airports

whilst out in the Pacific Northwest, Harbor Air is already test-flying
an all-electric commercial aircraft and aim to become the world's
first all-electric airline.


Flying short-distances all-electric and, until the technology can be
extended to long-haul flights, using carbon-neutral fuels, will make a
big difference to aviation emissions.

Nick
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2021-07-14 18:35:06 UTC
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Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 07:28:34, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
Pipe-dream; except for very small, short-range, electric isn't
practical, and I don't think that'll change by then. It just about might
by then for road vehicles, but for aircraft it'd need battery
development too.

Hydrogen is plausible, though I've heard very little about much work
going on in that area. But even assuming they develop the 'planes, the
infrastructure is needed to create and move the hydrogen.
Post by Mike McMillan
understand it, the economics of hairyplanes requires that amortisation
takes well over 30 years from commissioning date, so: What happens to the
aircraft manufacturing industry now? I’m sure that we are unable to just
pick up an order book and say to the like of Boeing err… those 20
Don't forget Airbus, of which a significant part (wings, I think) are
made in UK. And Rolls-Royce make engines for both.
Post by Mike McMillan
wide-bodied jets we have on order …. Just put electric motors in them
rather than kerosene guzzling jet engines will you please? My Bind is
Moggling - but I’m sure UMRA can set my mind at rest please!
And lorries too by 2040. It's only media reporting today, so it's not
clear whether it's all aircraft and lorries (as they tend to imply), or
just new ones (which is the case for cars - 2030 for no more _new_
petrol/diesel only, 2035 for no more new hybrids).

Again, the capacity and infrastructure is a long way from being ready.
I've been agreeably surprised how well we've been doing with green
sources for electricity; they are now usually supplying about a third,
and many days more than half, of _current_ demand. But that's what we
use _now_: we use about the same amount of energy for the three things -
what we now use electricity for, transport (currently mostly petrol and
diesel), and heating (currently gas). When transport moves mostly to
electricity (either batteries or hydrogen), let alone heating, we're
going to need a huge amount more - double or triple, obviously -
generating capacity, plus the distribution infrastructure (charging
points and hydrogen stations for vehicles), and beefed-up cables (to
supply the chargers and heating).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Douglas Adams is always right; any technology invented after you're 35 does
indeed feel against the natural order of things. - Simon Mayo, RT
2020/7/28-/8/3
Nick Odell
2021-07-14 20:29:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 19:35:06 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 07:28:34, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
Pipe-dream; except for very small, short-range, electric isn't
practical, and I don't think that'll change by then. It just about might
by then for road vehicles, but for aircraft it'd need battery
development too.
Hydrogen is plausible, though I've heard very little about much work
going on in that area. But even assuming they develop the 'planes, the
infrastructure is needed to create and move the hydrogen.
Post by Mike McMillan
understand it, the economics of hairyplanes requires that amortisation
takes well over 30 years from commissioning date, so: What happens to the
aircraft manufacturing industry now? I’m sure that we are unable to just
pick up an order book and say to the like of Boeing err… those 20
Don't forget Airbus, of which a significant part (wings, I think) are
made in UK. And Rolls-Royce make engines for both.
Post by Mike McMillan
wide-bodied jets we have on order …. Just put electric motors in them
rather than kerosene guzzling jet engines will you please? My Bind is
Moggling - but I’m sure UMRA can set my mind at rest please!
And lorries too by 2040. It's only media reporting today, so it's not
clear whether it's all aircraft and lorries (as they tend to imply), or
just new ones (which is the case for cars - 2030 for no more _new_
petrol/diesel only, 2035 for no more new hybrids).
Again, the capacity and infrastructure is a long way from being ready.
I've been agreeably surprised how well we've been doing with green
sources for electricity; they are now usually supplying about a third,
and many days more than half, of _current_ demand. But that's what we
use _now_: we use about the same amount of energy for the three things -
what we now use electricity for, transport (currently mostly petrol and
diesel), and heating (currently gas). When transport moves mostly to
electricity (either batteries or hydrogen), let alone heating, we're
going to need a huge amount more - double or triple, obviously -
generating capacity, plus the distribution infrastructure (charging
points and hydrogen stations for vehicles), and beefed-up cables (to
supply the chargers and heating).
Last Sunday I heard "The World Debate" on the BBC World
Service https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct2gh4 where people were
actually proposing answers to many of the obvious problems . I think
the gist of it would be to say that most of the above are
twentieth-century answers to (or difficulties with)
twenty-first-century problems and people are already moving into
twenty-first-century solutions. One example I remember was of
geothermal energy. Apparently it costs ever-such-a-lot to drill the
first borehole but about 30% less for the next one, and so on.
Subcritical water (water around 200-250degC) is a thing and has great
properties and possibilities. There's lots more of interest in the
programme, if that's the sort of thing you find interesting.

Nick
Clive Arthur
2021-07-14 22:18:34 UTC
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Permalink
On 14/07/2021 21:29, Nick Odell wrote:

<snip>
Post by Nick Odell
One example I remember was of
geothermal energy. Apparently it costs ever-such-a-lot to drill the
first borehole but about 30% less for the next one, and so on.
I can understand how the first hole is expensive. Lots of massive
equipment to deliver to site, lots of infrastructure to support it. The
second hole has all this in place. Quite why the third or forth should
be significantly cheaper than the second, I don't know.
--
Cheers
Clive
Nick Odell
2021-07-15 10:44:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 23:18:34 +0100, Clive Arthur
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by Nick Odell
One example I remember was of
geothermal energy. Apparently it costs ever-such-a-lot to drill the
first borehole but about 30% less for the next one, and so on.
I can understand how the first hole is expensive. Lots of massive
equipment to deliver to site, lots of infrastructure to support it. The
second hole has all this in place. Quite why the third or forth should
be significantly cheaper than the second, I don't know.
I'm not arguing for or against the ideas in the programme: I'm arguing
that, if you are interested in that sort of thing, the programme is
worth a listen. It's not all boreholes and superheated water: there's
thin-film solar cells and a host of other things too.

Nick
steve hague
2021-07-15 06:31:59 UTC
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Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
And lorries too by 2040. It's only media reporting today, so it's not
clear whether it's all aircraft and lorries (as they tend to imply), or
just new ones (which is the case for cars - 2030 for no more _new_
petrol/diesel only, 2035 for no more new hybrids).
Again, the capacity and infrastructure is a long way from being ready.
I've been agreeably surprised how well we've been doing with green
sources for electricity; they are now usually supplying about a third,
and many days more than half, of _current_ demand. But that's what we
use _now_: we use about the same amount of energy for the three things -
what we now use electricity for, transport (currently mostly petrol and
diesel), and heating (currently gas). When transport moves mostly to
electricity (either batteries or hydrogen), let alone heating, we're
going to need a huge amount more - double or triple, obviously -
generating capacity, plus the distribution infrastructure (charging
points and hydrogen stations for vehicles), and beefed-up cables (to
supply the chargers and heating).
Anyone who does much driving on motorways and A roads will have seen the
preponderence of HGVs. These monsters are generally diesels, and until
alternative means of propulsion or transport are in use, stopping
production of ICE cars will be just papering over the carbon cracks.
Also, current electric cars (see what I did there?) appear to be
incapable of towing caravans, which some of us see as a great mercy,
others not so much. I've never seen the point in hybrids, which imho are
a poor compromise with twice as much to go wrong and a need for regular
servicing equal to an ICE. Hydrogen may be the way forward, but it won't
half cost.
Steve
Clive Arthur
2021-07-15 08:11:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 15/07/2021 07:31, steve hague wrote:
<snip>
Post by steve hague
Anyone who does much driving on motorways and A roads will have seen the
preponderence of HGVs. These monsters are generally diesels, and until
alternative means of propulsion or transport are in use, stopping
production of ICE cars will be just papering over the carbon cracks.
Also, current electric cars (see what I did there?) appear to be
incapable of towing caravans, which some of us see as a great mercy,
others not so much. I've never seen the point in hybrids, which imho are
a poor compromise with twice as much to go wrong and a need for regular
servicing equal to an ICE. Hydrogen may be the way forward, but it won't
half cost.
Steve
Once self-driving is cracked...

Overhead wires on lane 1 for the trucks which then only need relatively
small batteries. Also, you can then couple your car behind one such for
a charge while you travel. Cars running in very close proximity as
'road trains' would be more efficient too.

Scalextric type slots in the road even, but that would annoy the bikers.

It's hard to see how planes could be efficiently electric - I suppose
regenerative braking on the way down could help. The great advantage of
planes is the infrastructure they don't need.
--
Cheers
Clive
Sam Plusnet
2021-07-24 20:49:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 07:28:34, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
Pipe-dream; except for very small, short-range, electric isn't
practical, and I don't think that'll change by then. It just about might
by then for road vehicles, but for aircraft it'd need battery
development too.
Say what you like, but I'm thinking of investing in companies which make
_really_ long extension leads.
--
Sam Plusnet
Penny
2021-07-24 22:29:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 21:49:03 +0100, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> scrawled in
the dust...
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 07:28:34, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
Pipe-dream; except for very small, short-range, electric isn't
practical, and I don't think that'll change by then. It just about might
by then for road vehicles, but for aircraft it'd need battery
development too.
Say what you like, but I'm thinking of investing in companies which make
_really_ long extension leads.
:)

I was thinking maybe trolley-bus-style overhead lines above motorways would
work, although fitting the pick-up bits* to smaller cars would be a
challenge. They wouldn't be able to overtake, of course, but could run as a
sort of road train, in their own lane.

* technical term
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Chris J Dixon
2021-07-25 07:00:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
I was thinking maybe trolley-bus-style overhead lines above motorways would
work, although fitting the pick-up bits* to smaller cars would be a
challenge. They wouldn't be able to overtake, of course, but could run as a
sort of road train, in their own lane.
* technical term
There have already been experiments with goods vehicles using
such a scheme

<https://www.scania.com/uk/en/truckeast/experience/news/2018/08/electric-truck-trials.html>
<https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/electric-highways-offer-most-efficient-path-decarbonise-trucks>

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.
Penny
2021-07-25 13:07:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 08:00:26 +0100, Chris J Dixon <***@cdixon.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Penny
I was thinking maybe trolley-bus-style overhead lines above motorways would
work, although fitting the pick-up bits* to smaller cars would be a
challenge. They wouldn't be able to overtake, of course, but could run as a
sort of road train, in their own lane.
* technical term
There have already been experiments with goods vehicles using
such a scheme
<https://www.scania.com/uk/en/truckeast/experience/news/2018/08/electric-truck-trials.html>
<https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/electric-highways-offer-most-efficient-path-decarbonise-trucks>
I've a feeling shifting freight using the actual railways would be a
better, and possibly cheaper, plan.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Peter
2021-07-25 13:23:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Penny
I was thinking maybe trolley-bus-style overhead lines above motorways would
work, although fitting the pick-up bits* to smaller cars would be a
challenge. They wouldn't be able to overtake, of course, but could run as a
sort of road train, in their own lane.
* technical term
There have already been experiments with goods vehicles using
such a scheme
<https://www.scania.com/uk/en/truckeast/experience/news/2018/08/electric-truck-trials.html>
<https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/electric-highways-offer-most-efficient-path-decarbonise-trucks>
I've a feeling shifting freight using the actual railways would be a
better, and possibly cheaper, plan.
And the canals for non-perishable goods.
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
Nick Leverton
2021-07-25 21:56:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Penny
I was thinking maybe trolley-bus-style overhead lines above motorways would
work, although fitting the pick-up bits* to smaller cars would be a
challenge. They wouldn't be able to overtake, of course, but could run as a
sort of road train, in their own lane.
* technical term
There have already been experiments with goods vehicles using
such a scheme
<https://www.scania.com/uk/en/truckeast/experience/news/2018/08/electric-truck-trials.html>
<https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/electric-highways-offer-most-efficient-path-decarbonise-trucks>
I've a feeling shifting freight using the actual railways would be a
better, and possibly cheaper, plan.
And the canals for non-perishable goods.
Electrified canals have been a thing:
<https://www.britishpathe.com/video/electric-canals>
Electric barges on the Staffordshire and Worcestershire, 1931

Harecastle Tunnel on the Trent and Mersey also used electric tugs albeit
battery powered.

Nick
--
We will be restoring normality as soon as we are sure what is normal anyway.
- Douglas Adams
Mike McMillan
2021-07-25 13:40:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Penny
I was thinking maybe trolley-bus-style overhead lines above motorways would
work, although fitting the pick-up bits* to smaller cars would be a
challenge. They wouldn't be able to overtake, of course, but could run as a
sort of road train, in their own lane.
* technical term
There have already been experiments with goods vehicles using
such a scheme
<https://www.scania.com/uk/en/truckeast/experience/news/2018/08/electric-truck-trials.html>
<https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/electric-highways-offer-most-efficient-path-decarbonise-trucks>
I've a feeling shifting freight using the actual railways would be a
better, and possibly cheaper, plan.
That’s an idea! I wonder why we didn’t try that decades ago!
--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan
Sam Plusnet
2021-07-25 21:54:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Penny
I was thinking maybe trolley-bus-style overhead lines above motorways would
work, although fitting the pick-up bits* to smaller cars would be a
challenge. They wouldn't be able to overtake, of course, but could run as a
sort of road train, in their own lane.
* technical term
There have already been experiments with goods vehicles using
such a scheme
<https://www.scania.com/uk/en/truckeast/experience/news/2018/08/electric-truck-trials.html>
<https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/electric-highways-offer-most-efficient-path-decarbonise-trucks>
I've a feeling shifting freight using the actual railways would be a
better, and possibly cheaper, plan.
Hmm. Instead of absorbing the hard shoulder and calling them "Smart
Motorways", perhaps they should turn the hard shoulder into a railway &
put all the freight onto rail waggons - with some kind of automatice
cargo identification & diversion at each motorway junction.

Should UMRA apply for a study grant on this?
--
Sam Plusnet
Joe Kerr
2021-07-25 22:24:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Penny
I was thinking maybe trolley-bus-style overhead lines above
motorways would
work, although fitting the pick-up bits* to smaller cars would be a
challenge. They wouldn't be able to overtake, of course, but could run as a
sort of road train, in their own lane.
* technical term
There have already been experiments with goods vehicles using
such a scheme
<https://www.scania.com/uk/en/truckeast/experience/news/2018/08/electric-truck-trials.html>
<https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/electric-highways-offer-most-efficient-path-decarbonise-trucks>
I've a feeling shifting freight using the actual railways would be a
better, and possibly cheaper, plan.
Hmm.  Instead of absorbing the hard shoulder and calling them "Smart
Motorways", perhaps they should turn the hard shoulder into a railway &
put all the freight onto rail waggons - with some kind of automatice
cargo identification & diversion at each motorway junction.
Should UMRA apply for a study grant on this?
How about large scale Lamson Tubes?
--
Ric
Mike McMillan
2021-07-25 07:18:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
the dust...
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 07:28:34, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
Pipe-dream; except for very small, short-range, electric isn't
practical, and I don't think that'll change by then. It just about might
by then for road vehicles, but for aircraft it'd need battery
development too.
Say what you like, but I'm thinking of investing in companies which make
_really_ long extension leads.
:)
I was thinking maybe trolley-bus-style overhead lines above motorways would
work, although fitting the pick-up bits* to smaller cars would be a
challenge. They wouldn't be able to overtake, of course, but could run as a
sort of road train, in their own lane.
* technical term
They would need two parallel wires and one would use a paragraph to pick up
the power from then;-)))
--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan
Tony Smith
2021-07-25 09:01:00 UTC
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Post by Mike McMillan
They would need two parallel wires and one would use a paragraph to pick up
the power from then;-)))
pantie-graph
Peter
2021-07-25 09:13:23 UTC
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Post by Tony Smith
Post by Mike McMillan
They would need two parallel wires and one would use a paragraph to pick up
the power from then;-)))
pantie-graph
Panto, as in Widow Twankey.
--
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg
Joe Kerr
2021-07-25 11:18:16 UTC
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Post by Tony Smith
Post by Mike McMillan
They would need two parallel wires and one would use a paragraph to pick up
the power from then;-)))
pantie-graph
A picture of underwear?
--
Ric
Tony Smith
2021-07-25 18:04:21 UTC
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Post by Joe Kerr
A picture of underwear?
A drawing of drawers
Mike McMillan
2021-07-25 13:39:44 UTC
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Post by Tony Smith
Post by Mike McMillan
They would need two parallel wires and one would use a paragraph to pick up
the power from then;-)))
pantie-graph
Shirley, panti-graphs would be used to pick up power from undie-the-road.
--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan
Penny
2021-07-25 14:00:52 UTC
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On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 02:01:00 -0700 (PDT), Tony Smith
Post by Tony Smith
Post by Mike McMillan
They would need two parallel wires and one would use a paragraph to pick up
the power from then;-)))
pantie-graph
Oh no it isn't! </panto>
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Nick Odell
2021-07-25 22:09:21 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 07:28:34, Mike McMillan
Post by Mike McMillan
I gather that the UK (I think UK rather than just Engelland) is to go to
carbon neutral aircraft by 2040 then? How will this work I wonder? As I
Pipe-dream; except for very small, short-range, electric isn't
practical, and I don't think that'll change by then. It just about might
by then for road vehicles, but for aircraft it'd need battery
development too.
Say what you like, but I'm thinking of investing in companies which make
_really_ long extension leads.
(Not a proper follow-up - sorry! The original post has expired on my
newsreader and I only thought up this answer today)

I reckon Scotland has the best chance of achieving carbon neutrality
by 2050 but that rather depends on them becoming independent first.

First they declare independence. Then they sequester the nuclear
stockpile, stick a thirteen amp socket on the side of each missile and
put a trident warhead in each home where it will keep everybody cozy
and warm and provide free electricity for hundreds of years with no
carbon release, Job's a good 'un.


Nick
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