Discussion:
COT ... Hampton Court Flower Show
(too old to reply)
DavidK
2021-06-20 07:48:11 UTC
Permalink
It's mainly idle speculation but I wondered what other rats thought on
the subject.

We have deferred tickets from last year and are planning to go on the
first day this year (Tuesday) but I have trepidation.

One source says that there are usually 140,000 visitors across 6 days
but I don't know how evenly they are spread. The current rule for
outdoor meetings is
- 4,000 people or 50% of a site or venue’s capacity, whichever is lower
at outdoor events
so we are talking about a sixth of the usual attendance.

I usually dive into the main marquee before the crowds build up but it's
still a scrum. I envisage huge queues of gardeners as the bouncers
attempt to filter people in slowly enough to maintain 2 metre spacing.

PS. I only discovered by visiting the website that parking has to be
booked in advance

PPS. I'm astonished. When I last looked tickets were still available for
the first day (RHS members)
krw
2021-06-21 09:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by DavidK
It's mainly idle speculation but I wondered what other rats thought on
the subject.
We have deferred tickets from last year and are planning to go on the
first day this year (Tuesday) but I have trepidation.
One source says that there are usually 140,000 visitors across 6 days
but I don't know how evenly they are spread. The current rule for
outdoor meetings is
- 4,000 people or 50% of a site or venue’s capacity, whichever is lower
at outdoor events
so we are talking about a sixth of the usual attendance.
I usually dive into the main marquee before the crowds build up but it's
still a scrum. I envisage huge queues of gardeners as the bouncers
attempt to filter people in slowly enough to maintain 2 metre spacing.
PS. I only discovered by visiting the website that parking has to be
booked in advance
PPS. I'm astonished. When I last looked tickets were still available for
the first day (RHS members)
Go. The world is safe.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Penny
2021-06-21 10:02:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:36:08 +0100, krw <***@whitnet.uk> scrawled in the
dust...
Post by krw
Post by DavidK
It's mainly idle speculation but I wondered what other rats thought on
the subject.
We have deferred tickets from last year and are planning to go on the
first day this year (Tuesday) but I have trepidation.
One source says that there are usually 140,000 visitors across 6 days
but I don't know how evenly they are spread. The current rule for
outdoor meetings is
- 4,000 people or 50% of a site or venue’s capacity, whichever is lower
at outdoor events
so we are talking about a sixth of the usual attendance.
I usually dive into the main marquee before the crowds build up but it's
still a scrum. I envisage huge queues of gardeners as the bouncers
attempt to filter people in slowly enough to maintain 2 metre spacing.
PS. I only discovered by visiting the website that parking has to be
booked in advance
PPS. I'm astonished. When I last looked tickets were still available for
the first day (RHS members)
Go. The world is safe.
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
BrritSki
2021-06-21 10:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
dust...
Post by krw
Post by DavidK
It's mainly idle speculation but I wondered what other rats thought on
the subject.
We have deferred tickets from last year and are planning to go on the
first day this year (Tuesday) but I have trepidation.
One source says that there are usually 140,000 visitors across 6 days
but I don't know how evenly they are spread. The current rule for
outdoor meetings is
- 4,000 people or 50% of a site or venue’s capacity, whichever is lower
at outdoor events
so we are talking about a sixth of the usual attendance.
I usually dive into the main marquee before the crowds build up but it's
still a scrum. I envisage huge queues of gardeners as the bouncers
attempt to filter people in slowly enough to maintain 2 metre spacing.
PS. I only discovered by visiting the website that parking has to be
booked in advance
PPS. I'm astonished. When I last looked tickets were still available for
the first day (RHS members)
Go. The world is safe.
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
And only 10 deaths/day. With even just 1 jab you're more at risk driving
to and from the venue.
krw
2021-06-21 10:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Penny
dust...
Post by DavidK
It's mainly idle speculation but I wondered what other rats thought on
the subject.
We have deferred tickets from last year and are planning to go on the
first day this year (Tuesday) but I have trepidation.
One source says that there are usually 140,000 visitors across 6 days
but I don't know how evenly they are spread. The current rule for
outdoor meetings is
- 4,000 people or 50% of a site or venue’s capacity, whichever is lower
at outdoor events
so we are talking about a sixth of the usual attendance.
I usually dive into the main marquee before the crowds build up but it's
still a scrum. I envisage huge queues of gardeners as the bouncers
attempt to filter people in slowly enough to maintain 2 metre spacing.
PS. I only discovered by visiting the website that parking has to be
booked in advance
PPS. I'm astonished. When I last looked tickets were still available for
the first day (RHS members)
Go.  The world is safe.
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
And only 10 deaths/day. With even just 1 jab you're more at risk driving
to and from the venue.
Indeed how many are dying of other more serious matters for which they
should have been treated?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
krw
2021-06-21 10:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
dust...
Post by krw
Post by DavidK
It's mainly idle speculation but I wondered what other rats thought on
the subject.
We have deferred tickets from last year and are planning to go on the
first day this year (Tuesday) but I have trepidation.
One source says that there are usually 140,000 visitors across 6 days
but I don't know how evenly they are spread. The current rule for
outdoor meetings is
- 4,000 people or 50% of a site or venue’s capacity, whichever is lower
at outdoor events
so we are talking about a sixth of the usual attendance.
I usually dive into the main marquee before the crowds build up but it's
still a scrum. I envisage huge queues of gardeners as the bouncers
attempt to filter people in slowly enough to maintain 2 metre spacing.
PS. I only discovered by visiting the website that parking has to be
booked in advance
PPS. I'm astonished. When I last looked tickets were still available for
the first day (RHS members)
Go. The world is safe.
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
How many of those have had both jabs?

And how ill are they?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
steve hague
2021-06-21 10:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
How many of those have had both jabs?
And how ill are they?
As we know, the severity varies enormously. A couple we know got it. He
was taken to hospital and nearly died, though he's fine now. She had a
few sniffles, and that was about it.
Steve
BrritSki
2021-06-21 10:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve hague
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
How many of those have had both jabs?
And how ill are they?
As we know, the severity varies enormously. A couple we know got it. He
was taken to hospital and nearly died, though he's fine now. She had a
few sniffles, and that was about it.
This anecdotal evidence is all very well - and sad for those concerned -
but it doesn't get us anywhere.

The current real world data shows that hospital stays are now much
shorter and the disease much less serious. Less than 1% of hospital beds
are occupied by Covid patients and even that might be an over-estimate
if they are in for something else and catch it there.
The models are nonsense and not real data
<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/21/flawed-modelling-condemning-britain-lockdown/>
Sam Plusnet
2021-06-21 17:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by steve hague
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
How many of those have had both jabs?
And how ill are they?
As we know, the severity varies enormously. A couple we know got it.
He was taken to hospital and nearly died, though he's fine now. She
had a few sniffles, and that was about it.
This anecdotal evidence is all very well - and sad for those concerned -
but it doesn't get us anywhere.
The current real world data shows that hospital stays are now much
shorter and the disease much less serious.
True, but that's because the people getting Covid now are mostly younger
& hence less likely to suffer serious illness - and more likely to
recover (reasonably) quickly if they do.
Nonetheless, ignoring prudent measures does mean that the disease _is_
spreading much more rapidly and widely, so vulnerable people are placed
at greater risk and the probability of even nastier variants arising is
greatly increased.
--
Sam Plusnet
BrritSki
2021-06-21 19:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
Post by steve hague
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
How many of those have had both jabs?
And how ill are they?
As we know, the severity varies enormously. A couple we know got it.
He was taken to hospital and nearly died, though he's fine now. She
had a few sniffles, and that was about it.
This anecdotal evidence is all very well - and sad for those concerned
- but it doesn't get us anywhere.
The current real world data shows that hospital stays are now much
shorter and the disease much less serious.
True, but that's because the people getting Covid now are mostly younger
& hence less likely to suffer serious illness - and more likely to
recover (reasonably) quickly if they do.
And so ?
Sam Plusnet
2021-06-22 20:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
Post by steve hague
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
How many of those have had both jabs?
And how ill are they?
As we know, the severity varies enormously. A couple we know got it.
He was taken to hospital and nearly died, though he's fine now. She
had a few sniffles, and that was about it.
This anecdotal evidence is all very well - and sad for those
concerned - but it doesn't get us anywhere.
The current real world data shows that hospital stays are now much
shorter and the disease much less serious.
True, but that's because the people getting Covid now are mostly
younger & hence less likely to suffer serious illness - and more
likely to recover (reasonably) quickly if they do.
And so ?
Prudence behoves us to not simply ignore the possible impact of our actions.

Wofe just got a letter from friends (in the same age group as us & both
have medical issues that place them at further risk) who are refusing
vaccination.

They have gone looking, online, for bad things about vaccines and to
no-one's surprise have found lots & lots.

I am left with the hope that the people around them have the good sense
to do the right thing, and so protect our friends from their own... lack
of judgement.

p.s. You might ask how any of this relates to what you have said. It
doesn't, but I was thinking about them when I replied to your post.
--
Sam Plusnet
Chris
2021-06-23 17:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
Post by steve hague
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
How many of those have had both jabs?
And how ill are they?
As we know, the severity varies enormously. A couple we know got it.
He was taken to hospital and nearly died, though he's fine now. She
had a few sniffles, and that was about it.
This anecdotal evidence is all very well - and sad for those
concerned - but it doesn't get us anywhere.
The current real world data shows that hospital stays are now much
shorter and the disease much less serious.
True, but that's because the people getting Covid now are mostly
younger & hence less likely to suffer serious illness - and more
likely to recover (reasonably) quickly if they do.
And so ?
Prudence behoves us to not simply ignore the possible impact of our actions.
Wofe just got a letter from friends (in the same age group as us & both
have medical issues that place them at further risk) who are refusing
vaccination.
They have gone looking, online, for bad things about vaccines and to
no-one's surprise have found lots & lots.
I am left with the hope that the people around them have the good sense
to do the right thing, and so protect our friends from their own... lack
of judgement.
p.s. You might ask how any of this relates to what you have said. It
doesn't, but I was thinking about them when I replied to your post.
I have refused the flu jab all the years I’ve been eligible which is a lot
because of my diabetes but Covid scared me witless. I have had pneumonia
in recent years. I pulled myself together and had the flu jab when sitting
with the diabetic nurse doing my yearly review. I shan’t be missing these
again. Also wearing a mask I haven’t had even a mild cold since the
2019/20 season. Now it is tempting to keep wearing one during the winter
months.

Sincerely Chris
Min
2021-06-24 01:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
I have refused the flu jab all the years I’ve been eligible which is a lot
because of my diabetes but Covid scared me witless. I have had pneumonia
in recent years. I pulled myself together and had the flu jab when sitting
with the diabetic nurse doing my yearly review. I shan’t be missing these
again. Also wearing a mask I haven’t had even a mild cold since the
2019/20 season. Now it is tempting to keep wearing one during the winter
months.
Sincerely Chris
Ditto (replace diabetes with asthma/COPD in first sentence). Organised
myself to have Fire Station Flu' Jab last year. Got told about a Pneumonia
Jab and, having nursed Alex through Double same once - will definitely try
to organise a TUIT for This Year.
--
Min
BrritSki
2021-06-24 07:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Min
Post by Chris
I have refused the flu jab all the years I’ve been eligible which is a lot
because of my diabetes but Covid scared me witless. I have had pneumonia
in recent years. I pulled myself together and had the flu jab when sitting
with the diabetic nurse doing my yearly review. I shan’t be missing these
again. Also wearing a mask I haven’t had even a mild cold since the
2019/20 season. Now it is tempting to keep wearing one during the winter
months.
Sincerely Chris
Ditto (replace diabetes with asthma/COPD in first sentence). Organised
myself to have Fire Station Flu' Jab last year. Got told about a Pneumonia
Jab and, having nursed Alex through Double same once - will definitely try
to organise a TUIT for This Year.
Flu jabs are annual, pneumonia jabs ain't: "People aged 65 and over
only need a single pneumococcal vaccination. This vaccine is not given
annually like the flu jab.

If you have a long-term health condition you may only need a single,
one-off pneumococcal vaccination, or a vaccination every 5 years,
depending on your underlying health problem."
Chris
2021-06-24 08:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Min
Post by Chris
I have refused the flu jab all the years I’ve been eligible which is a lot
because of my diabetes but Covid scared me witless. I have had pneumonia
in recent years. I pulled myself together and had the flu jab when sitting
with the diabetic nurse doing my yearly review. I shan’t be missing these
again. Also wearing a mask I haven’t had even a mild cold since the
2019/20 season. Now it is tempting to keep wearing one during the winter
months.
Sincerely Chris
Ditto (replace diabetes with asthma/COPD in first sentence). Organised
myself to have Fire Station Flu' Jab last year. Got told about a Pneumonia
Jab and, having nursed Alex through Double same once - will definitely try
to organise a TUIT for This Year.
Flu jabs are annual, pneumonia jabs ain't: "People aged 65 and over
only need a single pneumococcal vaccination. This vaccine is not given
annually like the flu jab.
If you have a long-term health condition you may only need a single,
one-off pneumococcal vaccination, or a vaccination every 5 years,
depending on your underlying health problem."
Never been mentioned to me. We shall see : if it’s an age thingy the magic
70 might prompt them

Sincerely Chris
Penny
2021-06-24 10:14:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 08:10:25 GMT, Chris <***@ntlworld.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris
Post by BrritSki
Flu jabs are annual, pneumonia jabs ain't: "People aged 65 and over
only need a single pneumococcal vaccination. This vaccine is not given
annually like the flu jab.
If you have a long-term health condition you may only need a single,
one-off pneumococcal vaccination, or a vaccination every 5 years,
depending on your underlying health problem."
Never been mentioned to me. We shall see : if it’s an age thingy the magic
70 might prompt them
I think I got mine before 60, directly invited by my GP practice, which
suggests it may have been down to underlying condition. But this is Wales,
health is a devolved concern, even if we get sent to England for referrals
and hospital care.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Sam Plusnet
2021-06-24 20:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris
Post by BrritSki
Flu jabs are annual, pneumonia jabs ain't: "People aged 65 and over
only need a single pneumococcal vaccination. This vaccine is not given
annually like the flu jab.
If you have a long-term health condition you may only need a single,
one-off pneumococcal vaccination, or a vaccination every 5 years,
depending on your underlying health problem."
Never been mentioned to me. We shall see : if it’s an age thingy the magic
70 might prompt them
I think I got mine before 60, directly invited by my GP practice, which
suggests it may have been down to underlying condition. But this is Wales,
health is a devolved concern, even if we get sent to England for referrals
and hospital care.
I'm over 70 whilst Wofe is under. Both of us got the pneumonia
vaccination on the same day last year. Neither Wofe nor I have anything
in particular wrong with us, other than "It's me age y'know."
--
Sam Plusnet (South Wales)
DavidK
2021-06-25 09:25:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris
Flu jabs are annual, pneumonia jabs ain't:  "People aged 65 and over
only need a single pneumococcal vaccination. This vaccine is not given
annually like the flu jab.
If you have a long-term health condition you may only need a single,
one-off pneumococcal vaccination, or a vaccination every 5 years,
depending on your underlying health problem."
Never been mentioned to me. We shall see : if it’s an age thingy the magic
70 might prompt them
I think I got mine before 60, directly invited by my GP practice, which
suggests it may have been down to underlying condition. But this is Wales,
health is a devolved concern, even if we get sent to England for referrals
and hospital care.
I'm over 70 whilst Wofe is under.  Both of us got the pneumonia
vaccination on the same day last year.  Neither Wofe nor I have anything
in particular wrong with us, other than "It's me age y'know."
I can see 70 in the rear driving mirror but my doctor hasn't mentioned
the pneumonia jab.
Sam Plusnet
2021-06-25 18:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by DavidK
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Chris
Flu jabs are annual, pneumonia jabs ain't:  "People aged 65 and over
only need a single pneumococcal vaccination. This vaccine is not given
annually like the flu jab.
If you have a long-term health condition you may only need a single,
one-off pneumococcal vaccination, or a vaccination every 5 years,
depending on your underlying health problem."
Never been mentioned to me. We shall see : if it’s an age thingy the magic
70 might prompt them
I think I got mine before 60, directly invited by my GP practice, which
suggests it may have been down to underlying condition. But this is Wales,
health is a devolved concern, even if we get sent to England for referrals
and hospital care.
I'm over 70 whilst Wofe is under.  Both of us got the pneumonia
vaccination on the same day last year.  Neither Wofe nor I have
anything in particular wrong with us, other than "It's me age y'know."
I can see 70 in the rear driving mirror but my doctor hasn't mentioned
the pneumonia jab.
Autre pays autre versions of the NHS.
--
Sam Plusnet
Jenny M Benson
2021-06-24 09:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
I have refused the flu jab all the years I’ve been eligible which is a lot
because of my diabetes
When I first read this I thought you were saying you refused the jab
because of the diabetes. Reading it again, I think you meant the
diabetes made you eligible a long time again. Either way, I am curious
to know why you refused it.

I've had 'flu 2 or 3 times in my life and it is a NASTY thing. I was
only too glad to accept the offer of a jab as soon as it (the offer) was
made.
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
krw
2021-06-24 12:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Either way, I am curious to know why you refused it.
I saw how ill the flu jab made my late daughter and due to the close
genealogical ;ink have chosen never to have it. So far no flu either,
touch wood.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2021-06-24 13:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by krw
Either way, I am curious to know why you refused it.
I saw how ill the flu jab made my late daughter and due to the close
genealogical ;ink have chosen never to have it. So far no flu either,
touch wood.
On the other hand, if you share the genetic disposition that gets ill
just from the jab, the real disease might make you _very_ ill. You can't
win - though it might be worth discussing with a medical person; there
might for example, if you and s/he can figure out _why_ it made your
daughter so ill, be a variant available.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Who can refute a sneer? - Archdeacon Paley, in his book Moral Philosophy
Min
2021-06-25 01:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by krw
Either way, I am curious to know why you refused it.
I saw how ill the flu jab made my late daughter and due to the close
genealogical ;ink have chosen never to have it. So far no flu either,
touch wood.
On the other hand, if you share the genetic disposition that gets ill
just from the jab, the real disease might make you _very_ ill. You can't
win - though it might be worth discussing with a medical person; there
might for example, if you and s/he can figure out _why_ it made your
daughter so ill, be a variant available.
--
Who can refute a sneer? - Archdeacon Paley, in his book Moral Philosophy
Didn't make me ill, but (Touch Wood!) I'm not very prone to colds, though I do
tend to get a chest infection with each one. After a number of years without colds,
the Year I Sensibly Had a 'Flu Jab was full of colds and chest infections. So I
didn't get one again, with no marked problems.
--
Min
Chris
2021-06-25 09:57:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Chris
I have refused the flu jab all the years I’ve been eligible which is a lot
because of my diabetes
When I first read this I thought you were saying you refused the jab
because of the diabetes. Reading it again, I think you meant the
diabetes made you eligible a long time again. Either way, I am curious
to know why you refused it.
I've had 'flu 2 or 3 times in my life and it is a NASTY thing. I was
only too glad to accept the offer of a jab as soon as it (the offer) was
made.
Despite having had flu a few times badly none had been at the age I was
diagnosed diabetic - plus being diet controlled diabetic didn’t seem
anything but one of the many chronic but annoying conditions I live with.
Never having had any of the actual obvious symptoms which would certainly
have affected my life at the time, I wasn’t taking it to a serious ‘nth
degree’ as long as I stuck to eating what I was told.

15 years later and Covid scared is different. To be fair, had SARS or MERS
reached our shores I think I would have done it then.

Sincerely Chris
Nick Odell
2021-06-21 12:02:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:35:05 +0100, steve hague
Post by steve hague
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
How many of those have had both jabs?
And how ill are they?
As we know, the severity varies enormously. A couple we know got it. He
was taken to hospital and nearly died, though he's fine now. She had a
few sniffles, and that was about it.
I take the points KRW & Brritski make but I'm more aligned with you
and Penny here.

Me? I'm fine thanks. I've had my two jabs and there's been enough time
for them to bed in and I've no reason to think I'll suffer more than a
sniffle if I pick up the virus and anyway there'll probably be a
booster shot along by Autumn. Pity about my next-door neighbours
though: one's receiving treatment for cancer and has no immune system
left to speak of and another is so ill with other things they can't be
vaccinated. Still, never mind eh? Life goes on, doesn't it?

And they just happen to be two of the people I happen to know I could
stuff up if I were to pick up a shed-load of infection which won't
actually harm me at all. Goodness knows who else I would come into
contact with in my attempts to get back to normal.

Two interesting newspaper stories this weekend: the I newspaper is
reporting an increase of 2400% to 4000% in Covid-19 infections at the
tip of Cornwall following the G7 summit whilst representatives of the
travel industry are arguing in the Telegraph for abandoning
self-isolation for those returning from the "Amber" list of countries
because fewer than 1 in 200 people are coming back from their hols
with Covid.

Now, I am neither a consultant virologist nor an epidemiologist, I
don't think listening to all three broadcasts of "More or Less" helps
a lot and my arithmetic has always been shaky but I think both
newspapers are overplaying their hands. Reading the local Cornish
news, I don't think the South West has been turned into a plague pit
because the actual number of infections in St Ives has increased to 70
- from, I presume, about three. The rate of infection in Manchester is
currently estimated at about 314 per 100,000 and deemed to be pretty
serious indeed but -hey- it can't be that bad if the travel industry
wants to remove quarantine restrictions over a paltry rate of about
500 per 100,000 of homecoming holidaymakers, eh?

Whilst you've got different factions peddling their own special
interests and genuine journalists doing their best to interpret the
press releases which were put together by press agents doing their
best to interpret what they picked up from the spokesperson who was
doing their best to interpret what the scientist told them whilst
doing their best to put their scientific analysis into terms other
people could understand, I think I'll stick to the precautionary
principle for the time being.

Does anybody still remember the precautionary principle?

Nick
Mike McMillan
2021-06-21 12:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:35:05 +0100, steve hague
Post by steve hague
Post by krw
Post by Penny
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
How many of those have had both jabs?
And how ill are they?
As we know, the severity varies enormously. A couple we know got it. He
was taken to hospital and nearly died, though he's fine now. She had a
few sniffles, and that was about it.
I take the points KRW & Brritski make but I'm more aligned with you
and Penny here.
Me? I'm fine thanks. I've had my two jabs and there's been enough time
for them to bed in and I've no reason to think I'll suffer more than a
sniffle if I pick up the virus and anyway there'll probably be a
booster shot along by Autumn. Pity about my next-door neighbours
though: one's receiving treatment for cancer and has no immune system
left to speak of and another is so ill with other things they can't be
vaccinated. Still, never mind eh? Life goes on, doesn't it?
And they just happen to be two of the people I happen to know I could
stuff up if I were to pick up a shed-load of infection which won't
actually harm me at all. Goodness knows who else I would come into
contact with in my attempts to get back to normal.
Two interesting newspaper stories this weekend: the I newspaper is
reporting an increase of 2400% to 4000% in Covid-19 infections at the
tip of Cornwall following the G7 summit whilst representatives of the
travel industry are arguing in the Telegraph for abandoning
self-isolation for those returning from the "Amber" list of countries
because fewer than 1 in 200 people are coming back from their hols
with Covid.
Now, I am neither a consultant virologist nor an epidemiologist, I
don't think listening to all three broadcasts of "More or Less" helps
a lot and my arithmetic has always been shaky but I think both
newspapers are overplaying their hands. Reading the local Cornish
news, I don't think the South West has been turned into a plague pit
because the actual number of infections in St Ives has increased to 70
- from, I presume, about three. The rate of infection in Manchester is
currently estimated at about 314 per 100,000 and deemed to be pretty
serious indeed but -hey- it can't be that bad if the travel industry
wants to remove quarantine restrictions over a paltry rate of about
500 per 100,000 of homecoming holidaymakers, eh?
Whilst you've got different factions peddling their own special
interests and genuine journalists doing their best to interpret the
press releases which were put together by press agents doing their
best to interpret what they picked up from the spokesperson who was
doing their best to interpret what the scientist told them whilst
doing their best to put their scientific analysis into terms other
people could understand, I think I'll stick to the precautionary
principle for the time being.
Does anybody still remember the precautionary principle?
Nick
People wanting to travel and mingle - I wash my hands (Happy birthday to
you…) of the whole lot of ‘em.
--
Toddle Pip, Mike McMillan
Penny
2021-06-21 13:24:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 13:02:43 +0100, Nick Odell
<***@themusicworkshop.plus.com> scrawled in the dust...

I stopped paying close attention to the numbers about a year ago, when I
stopped watching any 'briefings' which got far too confusing as Boris
continued to talk about England as the UK.
Post by Nick Odell
don't think listening to all three broadcasts of "More or Less" helps
But, I heard it twice and think I need to listen again because he quoted a
couple of figures, I think it was:
23,000 in the whole of 2020
and
45,000 so far in 2021
(I assumed this was cumulative)
but I'm blowed if I can work out what they were figures were _for_.
It's not 'deaths in the UK' - current total 127,976
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Sam Plusnet
2021-06-21 17:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 13:02:43 +0100, Nick Odell
I stopped paying close attention to the numbers about a year ago, when I
stopped watching any 'briefings' which got far too confusing as Boris
continued to talk about England as the UK.
Post by Nick Odell
don't think listening to all three broadcasts of "More or Less" helps
But, I heard it twice and think I need to listen again because he quoted a
23,000 in the whole of 2020
and
45,000 so far in 2021
(I assumed this was cumulative)
but I'm blowed if I can work out what they were figures were _for_.
It's not 'deaths in the UK' - current total 127,976
The number of the PM's political advisers who have turned nasty, after
being booted out of 'office'.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2021-06-21 15:31:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 at 13:02:43, Nick Odell
<***@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote (my responses usually follow
points raised):
[]
Post by Nick Odell
I take the points KRW & Brritski make but I'm more aligned with you
and Penny here.
Me? I'm fine thanks. I've had my two jabs and there's been enough time
for them to bed in and I've no reason to think I'll suffer more than a
sniffle if I pick up the virus and anyway there'll probably be a
Same here (I think): but I'm with you on wanting to err on the side of
caution. But then I'm (I hope!) financially secure; there are many for
whom continued lockdown involves significant hardship. If it's extended,
it needs to be with proper compensation, to catch more of those affected
than it is currently (even before today).
Post by Nick Odell
booster shot along by Autumn. Pity about my next-door neighbours
though: one's receiving treatment for cancer and has no immune system
left to speak of and another is so ill with other things they can't be
vaccinated. Still, never mind eh? Life goes on, doesn't it?
And they just happen to be two of the people I happen to know I could
stuff up if I were to pick up a shed-load of infection which won't
actually harm me at all. Goodness knows who else I would come into
contact with in my attempts to get back to normal.
Two interesting newspaper stories this weekend: the I newspaper is
reporting an increase of 2400% to 4000% in Covid-19 infections at the
tip of Cornwall following the G7 summit whilst representatives of the
The media hardly ever give ratios - except where they're based on such
small figures that they're ludicrous. (And then they continue to use
percentages: the above would have been far clearer if they'd just said
25× to 41× [assuming they don't actually mean 24× to 40×].)
Post by Nick Odell
travel industry are arguing in the Telegraph for abandoning
self-isolation for those returning from the "Amber" list of countries
because fewer than 1 in 200 people are coming back from their hols
with Covid.
The pronunciation in the early days confused me: I knew what communist
or capitalist countries are, but I was a little confused what ambalist
ones might be.
[]
Post by Nick Odell
Does anybody still remember the precautionary principle?
Nick
I'm very depressed that both politicians and media (to some extent,
politicians driven by media) have just clunked the cog another tooth,
and just named another date. They should have set some threshold(s) -
such as <800 in hospital and less than three deaths a day for a week.
Current figures - 1,316 in hospital, last 7 days' deaths 10, 9, 8, 15,
9, 7, 7 or 3, 10, 9, 19, 11, 14, 6 depending which method.

Basing the release on these, rather than a date, would encourage people
to be sensible, too.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I asked a sample of people if they liked answering questionnaires, and 100% of
respondents said "Yes". - PMC @PmcRetired on twitter, 2020-11-18
Penny
2021-06-21 19:58:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:31:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I'm very depressed that both politicians and media (to some extent,
politicians driven by media) have just clunked the cog another tooth,
and just named another date. They should have set some threshold(s) -
such as <800 in hospital and less than three deaths a day for a week.
Current figures - 1,316 in hospital, last 7 days' deaths 10, 9, 8, 15,
9, 7, 7 or 3, 10, 9, 19, 11, 14, 6 depending which method.
Basing the release on these, rather than a date, would encourage people
to be sensible, too.
Wasn't that the cry 'following the science not the date'?
Swiftly followed by announcement of dates - I despaired.

By announcing dates, various areas of the food/booze service industry
started to plan, hiring and training staff, stocking up etc. Then it's,
'oh, no, not that date' and they're binning stocks again and telling staff
'not yet'. Not to mention the folk booking holidays they then couldn't
take, or had to rush home from.

There are good examples of better management on other islands around the
globe.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
BrritSki
2021-06-21 20:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:31:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I'm very depressed that both politicians and media (to some extent,
politicians driven by media) have just clunked the cog another tooth,
and just named another date. They should have set some threshold(s) -
such as <800 in hospital and less than three deaths a day for a week.
Current figures - 1,316 in hospital, last 7 days' deaths 10, 9, 8, 15,
9, 7, 7 or 3, 10, 9, 19, 11, 14, 6 depending which method.
Basing the release on these, rather than a date, would encourage people
to be sensible, too.
Wasn't that the cry 'following the science not the date'?
Swiftly followed by announcement of dates - I despaired.
But the data IS good. The rates of hospitalisation and death (the only
things that matter re "protecting the NHS" rather than cases that are
elevated by the huge amount of testing we do (about 3x more than France,
4x more than Italy and almost 10x more than Germany and yet our deaths
are much less <https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing>))
<takes breath> are much lower than ANY of the SAGE estimates for
progress. So why are we locked down still ?
Post by Penny
There are good examples of better management on other islands around the
globe.
Presumably you're referring the NZ and Aus ? I would simply ask how
they think they're going to exit from their self-isolation ?

I should point out that I am one of the alleged "vulnerable" due to my
COPD and BMI. I have followed all the guidelines and still do and have
had my jabs and urge other adults to do so (I don't think there's good
evidence for vaccinating children though).

However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll be
in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet normaly are
the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors on the beach or
at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if this holiday means
we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for extra tests. We have no
idea how many years we have left, but probably not many. We intend to
enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Clive Arthur
2021-06-21 22:00:00 UTC
Permalink
On 21/06/2021 21:12, BrritSki wrote:

<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll be
in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet normaly are
the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors on the beach or
at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if this holiday means
we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for extra tests. We have no
idea how many years we have left, but probably not many. We intend to
enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose. "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest of
you." would have saved a lot of ink. If we still had ink.
--
Cheers
Clive
krw
2021-06-21 22:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll
be in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet normaly
are the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors on the
beach or at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if this
holiday means we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for extra
tests. We have no idea how many years we have left, but probably not
many. We intend to enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose.  "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest of
you." would have saved a lot of ink.  If we still had ink.
A little unfair I suggest. BrritSki makes it clear that he is taking
suitable precautions whilst at his destination and on return. The
Greeks are widely advertising the steps taken to minimise risk -
particularly on their islands and our Government grading of the risk
level is down to what they want to do as individuals:
a) India remained accessible to enable Boris to pursue trade opportunities
b) Portugal was temporarily permitted to enable Gove to visit to watch
football. The risks in Portugal have not changed dramatically - either
it was and still is safe or if it is not now it was not then. It had
better be by the time of the holiday I should have had last year comes
around.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
BrritSki
2021-06-22 06:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll
be in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet normaly
are the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors on the
beach or at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if this
holiday means we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for extra
tests. We have no idea how many years we have left, but probably not
many. We intend to enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose.  "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest of
you." would have saved a lot of ink.  If we still had ink.
A little unfair I suggest.  BrritSki makes it clear that he is taking
suitable precautions whilst at his destination and on return.  The
Greeks are widely advertising the steps taken to minimise risk
Indeed. There have been 2 cases on the island in the last 3 weeks and
their levels of vaccination (1st and 2nd) were not far behind ours last
time I looked.
BrritSki
2021-06-22 06:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll
be in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet normaly
are the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors on the
beach or at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if this
holiday means we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for extra
tests. We have no idea how many years we have left, but probably not
many. We intend to enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose.  "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest of
you." would have saved a lot of ink.  If we still had ink.
Wow, you've really bought the bullshit. Do you wear a mask in your car too ?
Clive Arthur
2021-06-22 07:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll
be in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet normaly
are the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors on the
beach or at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if this
holiday means we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for extra
tests. We have no idea how many years we have left, but probably not
many. We intend to enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose.  "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest of
you." would have saved a lot of ink.  If we still had ink.
Wow, you've really bought the bullshit. Do you wear a mask in your car too ?
If I catch Covid I'd probably be fine, and if I weren't, then so be it.
However SWMBO has an immune deficiency and I do everything I can to
protect her, which would include keeping selfish idiots at bay.
--
Cheers
Clive
BrritSki
2021-06-22 08:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll
be in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet
normaly are the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors
on the beach or at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if
this holiday means we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for
extra tests. We have no idea how many years we have left, but
probably not many. We intend to enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose.  "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest
of you." would have saved a lot of ink.  If we still had ink.
Wow, you've really bought the bullshit. Do you wear a mask in your car too ?
If I catch Covid I'd probably be fine, and if I weren't, then so be it.
However SWMBO has an immune deficiency and I do everything I can to
protect her, which would include keeping selfish idiots at bay.
Very sad for you both. So we close the whole country to protect 1 person
? Or a 1,000 ? Or 1,000,000 ?

And you call me selfish ?
Nick Odell
2021-06-22 10:13:39 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:02:23 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll
be in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet
normaly are the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors
on the beach or at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if
this holiday means we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for
extra tests. We have no idea how many years we have left, but
probably not many. We intend to enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose.  "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest
of you." would have saved a lot of ink.  If we still had ink.
Wow, you've really bought the bullshit. Do you wear a mask in your car too ?
If I catch Covid I'd probably be fine, and if I weren't, then so be it.
However SWMBO has an immune deficiency and I do everything I can to
protect her, which would include keeping selfish idiots at bay.
Very sad for you both. So we close the whole country to protect 1 person
? Or a 1,000 ? Or 1,000,000 ?
And you call me selfish ?
How we treat the most vulnerable amongst us is a measure of what kind
of society we are and, as usual it's not a binary choice, however
convenient it may be to present it that way. And it is convenient to
present it as a binary choice when the alternatives run up against
long-held ideologies.

It's not a party political thing: the problems we are facing now have
run through our society for decades and successive governments of
every persuasion have failed us. I blame this government just because
it is this government, just as I blamed the governments of May,
Cameron, the coalition, Brown, Blair, Major, Thatcher, and so on, and
on.

We are a member of - and if I remember rightly, just a couple of weeks
ago we hosted a meeting of - the G7 group of the world's largest
IMF-advanced economies and wealthiest liberal democracies. We are one
of the wealthiest countries in the world yet we are put to shame by
other, weaker, poorer countries with our priorities for our justice
system, our food banks, our homelessness, our education and health
provision etc. Every few years we conduct a National Security Risk
Assessment - you know, the one that thought some sort of pandemic
might be on the cards? - and every few years we kick that can a little
further down the road because, along with prisons, homelessness and
poverty, there are no votes in it. Though in recent years I've been
noticing that the cry has been changing to "there are no votes in it
for us" Whoever is "us" at the time.

Social care is another can being kicked down the road and other,
poorer countries do it better.

Interestingly, the pensions expert and Conservative peer, Ros Altmann
seems to be going around today admitting that the UK State Pension is
" the worst state pension in the developed world "
<https://inews.co.uk/opinion/triple-lock-rishi-sunak-pension-credit-poorest-pensioners-1062959>
and arguing for resisting undercurrents to tweak the pension uprating
to eliminate the statistical "windfall" that would make it a slightly
better worst state pension instead. Further, I think that Rishi Sunak
"gets" the what-kind-of-a-society-have-we-become thing too and, when
he replaces Boris Johnson as Prime Minister, we could be in for some
interesting times.

Nick
John Ashby
2021-06-22 10:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:02:23 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll
be in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet
normaly are the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors
on the beach or at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if
this holiday means we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for
extra tests. We have no idea how many years we have left, but
probably not many. We intend to enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose.  "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest
of you." would have saved a lot of ink.  If we still had ink.
Wow, you've really bought the bullshit. Do you wear a mask in your car too ?
If I catch Covid I'd probably be fine, and if I weren't, then so be it.
However SWMBO has an immune deficiency and I do everything I can to
protect her, which would include keeping selfish idiots at bay.
Very sad for you both. So we close the whole country to protect 1 person
? Or a 1,000 ? Or 1,000,000 ?
And you call me selfish ?
How we treat the most vulnerable amongst us is a measure of what kind
of society we are and, as usual it's not a binary choice, however
convenient it may be to present it that way. And it is convenient to
present it as a binary choice when the alternatives run up against
long-held ideologies.
It's not a party political thing: the problems we are facing now have
run through our society for decades and successive governments of
every persuasion have failed us. I blame this government just because
it is this government, just as I blamed the governments of May,
Cameron, the coalition, Brown, Blair, Major, Thatcher, and so on, and
on.
We are a member of - and if I remember rightly, just a couple of weeks
ago we hosted a meeting of - the G7 group of the world's largest
IMF-advanced economies and wealthiest liberal democracies. We are one
of the wealthiest countries in the world yet we are put to shame by
other, weaker, poorer countries with our priorities for our justice
system, our food banks, our homelessness, our education and health
provision etc. Every few years we conduct a National Security Risk
Assessment - you know, the one that thought some sort of pandemic
might be on the cards? - and every few years we kick that can a little
further down the road because, along with prisons, homelessness and
poverty, there are no votes in it. Though in recent years I've been
noticing that the cry has been changing to "there are no votes in it
for us" Whoever is "us" at the time.
Social care is another can being kicked down the road and other,
poorer countries do it better.
Interestingly, the pensions expert and Conservative peer, Ros Altmann
seems to be going around today admitting that the UK State Pension is
" the worst state pension in the developed world"
<https://inews.co.uk/opinion/triple-lock-rishi-sunak-pension-credit-poorest-pensioners-1062959>
and arguing for resisting undercurrents to tweak the pension uprating
to eliminate the statistical "windfall" that would make it a slightly
better worst state pension instead. Further, I think that Rishi Sunak
"gets" the what-kind-of-a-society-have-we-become thing too and, when
he replaces Boris Johnson as Prime Minister, we could be in for some
interesting times.
Nick
Yes, but <Helen> tell us how you *really* feel </Helen>.

As to your last point, Sunak was described yesterday on the wireless as
a very dry Tory, keen follower of both Thatcher and Osborne, so FSVO
"interesting".

john
BrritSki
2021-06-22 11:12:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:02:23 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll
be in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet
normaly are the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors
on the beach or at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if
this holiday means we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for
extra tests. We have no idea how many years we have left, but
probably not many. We intend to enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose.  "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest
of you." would have saved a lot of ink.  If we still had ink.
Wow, you've really bought the bullshit. Do you wear a mask in your car too ?
If I catch Covid I'd probably be fine, and if I weren't, then so be it.
However SWMBO has an immune deficiency and I do everything I can to
protect her, which would include keeping selfish idiots at bay.
Very sad for you both. So we close the whole country to protect 1 person
? Or a 1,000 ? Or 1,000,000 ?
And you call me selfish ?
How we treat the most vulnerable amongst us is a measure of what kind
of society we are and, as usual it's not a binary choice, however
convenient it may be to present it that way. And it is convenient to
present it as a binary choice when the alternatives run up against
long-held ideologies.
Yes, that's all very well Nick, but at what point do we open up again ?
How many lives do we have to "save". 1, 100, 1,000 etc ???

And what about the collateral damage to people's mental health,
children's education, the economy in general and the effects that has on
health longer term ?

I didn't have a problem with the first lockdown, but knowing what we
know now it was a mistake as severity of lockdown has little or no
correlation to the impacts of the pandemic as Sweden, florida, Texas etc
has shown. People's common sense in avoiding dangerous sitautions is
enough if they are given the right information, which they have not been
e.g.
<https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/>

Masks are another example where there is very little benefit from the
masks that most people wear and the way they wear them. I bought some
N95 masks at the height of the pandemic and fit them as well as I can
round my nose and face, but I still doubt they provided me much
protection. Some maybe, but not much as studies have shown, and with
some possible downsides. Wearing them outside is a complete waste of time.
Mike McMillan
2021-06-22 12:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Nick Odell
On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:02:23 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by BrritSki
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by BrritSki
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll
be in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet
normaly are the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors
on the beach or at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if
this holiday means we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for
extra tests. We have no idea how many years we have left, but
probably not many. We intend to enjoy them, not cower in fear.
Verbose.  "We're probably going to die soon anyway so fuck the rest
of you." would have saved a lot of ink.  If we still had ink.
Wow, you've really bought the bullshit. Do you wear a mask in your car too ?
If I catch Covid I'd probably be fine, and if I weren't, then so be it.
However SWMBO has an immune deficiency and I do everything I can to
protect her, which would include keeping selfish idiots at bay.
Very sad for you both. So we close the whole country to protect 1 person
? Or a 1,000 ? Or 1,000,000 ?
And you call me selfish ?
How we treat the most vulnerable amongst us is a measure of what kind
of society we are and, as usual it's not a binary choice, however
convenient it may be to present it that way. And it is convenient to
present it as a binary choice when the alternatives run up against
long-held ideologies.
Yes, that's all very well Nick, but at what point do we open up again ?
How many lives do we have to "save". 1, 100, 1,000 etc ???
And what about the collateral damage to people's mental health,
children's education, the economy in general and the effects that has on
health longer term ?
I didn't have a problem with the first lockdown, but knowing what we
know now it was a mistake as severity of lockdown has little or no
correlation to the impacts of the pandemic as Sweden, florida, Texas etc
has shown. People's common sense in avoiding dangerous sitautions is
enough if they are given the right information, which they have not been
e.g.
<https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/>
Masks are another example where there is very little benefit from the
masks that most people wear and the way they wear them. I bought some
N95 masks at the height of the pandemic and fit them as well as I can
round my nose and face, but I still doubt they provided me much
protection. Some maybe, but not much as studies have shown, and with
some possible downsides. Wearing them outside is a complete waste of time.
As I understand it, masks are worn as a protection to others - not oneself;
your protection is reliant on others wearing effective masks properly.
--
Toddle Pip, Mike McMillan
BrritSki
2021-06-22 12:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by BrritSki
Masks are another example where there is very little benefit from the
masks that most people wear and the way they wear them. I bought some
N95 masks at the height of the pandemic and fit them as well as I can
round my nose and face, but I still doubt they provided me much
protection. Some maybe, but not much as studies have shown, and with
some possible downsides. Wearing them outside is a complete waste of time.
As I understand it, masks are worn as a protection to others - not oneself;
your protection is reliant on others wearing effective masks properly.
Exactly. I am not protected by the way most people wear theirs and the
quality of the masks they're not wearing. I would not go out if I was
symptomatic or had recently been in contact with somebody symptomatic.
That's the best protection to others, although there may well be a
pre-symptomatic phase where you're not aware. I am far from convinced
that here's any other non-symptomatic infection.
Penny
2021-06-22 15:02:19 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:12:21 +0100, BrritSki <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
I didn't have a problem with the first lockdown, but knowing what we
know now it was a mistake as severity of lockdown has little or no
correlation to the impacts of the pandemic as Sweden, florida, Texas etc
has shown. People's common sense in avoiding dangerous sitautions is
enough if they are given the right information, which they have not been
e.g.
<https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/>
Interesting, I can't now recall when they decided it was airborne rather
than droplets but it did happen, which IIRC is when they introduced the
masks rule.
Post by BrritSki
Masks are another example where there is very little benefit from the
masks that most people wear and the way they wear them.
This is very true. £ Stretcher is selling some particularly useless ones, 2
for £1.29, made of a single layer of some sort of polyester jersey, in that
curious C shape made by sewing two pieces down the middle in a curve. The
ear loops being part of each side. Completely useless but they'll let you
in the shop...
Post by BrritSki
I bought some
N95 masks at the height of the pandemic and fit them as well as I can
round my nose and face, but I still doubt they provided me much
protection. Some maybe, but not much as studies have shown, and with
some possible downsides.
Um, you seem to have misunderstood the purpose of a mask - primarily it is
to protect others, not the mask wearer. Get everyone to wear them and
everyone gains. They won't stop all your exhalation from getting out into
the air, but will slow it down so it's less likely to travel far, and it
won't go straight into the face of the person you are talking to.

Food/drink being served indoors seems mad but I gather it is happening at
the moment in areas immediately adjacent to a space in the same building
where everyone has to wear a mask. Hmm, that might have been something D#1
told me about her return to working from the office...
Post by BrritSki
Wearing them outside is a complete waste of time.
Very probably.

Apart from the lies they have told, the government have repeatedly done, or
caused to be done, a large number of really stupid things with regard to
people flying in and out of the UK. It's history, we can't change it, but
they still seem to be making the same crazy errors. Was it 3 weeks between
the Indian variant being found in UK and the shutting down of flights in
from India? Then that shut-down was heralded by another 'in a few days
time' announcement, causing a manic influx of travellers from India who
mixed and mingled among other travellers at the airports and were not
required to quarantine.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
BrritSki
2021-06-22 15:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
I bought some
N95 masks at the height of the pandemic and fit them as well as I can
round my nose and face, but I still doubt they provided me much
protection. Some maybe, but not much as studies have shown, and with
some possible downsides.
Um, you seem to have misunderstood the purpose of a mask - primarily it is
to protect others, not the mask wearer.
Yes, but as I explained earlier if *I* was symptomatic or had been in
contact with someone with symptomsor had tested +ve, I would not have
been out anyway.
John Ashby
2021-06-22 18:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
I bought some
N95 masks at the height of the pandemic and fit them as well as I can
round my nose and face, but I still doubt they provided me much
protection. Some maybe, but not much as studies have shown, and with
some possible downsides.
Um, you seem to have misunderstood the purpose of a mask - primarily it is
to protect others, not the mask wearer.
Yes, but as I explained earlier if *I* was symptomatic or had been in
contact with someone with symptomsor had tested +ve, I would not have
been out anyway.
If *you knew*...

DINTAFPOU?

john
BrritSki
2021-06-22 18:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Post by BrritSki
Post by Penny
On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:12:21 +0100, BrritSki
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
I bought some
N95 masks at the height of the pandemic and fit them as well as I can
round my nose and face, but I still doubt they provided me much
protection. Some maybe, but not much as studies have shown, and with
some possible downsides.
Um, you seem to have misunderstood the purpose of a mask - primarily it is
to protect others, not the mask wearer.
Yes, but as I explained earlier if *I* was symptomatic or had been in
contact with someone with symptomsor had tested +ve, I would not have
been out anyway.
If *you knew*...
DINTAFPOU?
Of course not, but as I said when I mentioned this earlier, I could have
been pre-symptomatic, but I have serious doubts about asymptomatic
transmission.
John Ashby
2021-06-22 18:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
I didn't have a problem with the first lockdown, but knowing what we
know now it was a mistake as severity of lockdown has little or no
correlation to the impacts of the pandemic as Sweden, florida, Texas etc
has shown. People's common sense in avoiding dangerous sitautions is
enough if they are given the right information, which they have not been
e.g.
<https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/>
Interesting, I can't now recall when they decided it was airborne rather
than droplets but it did happen, which IIRC is when they introduced the
masks rule.
Post by BrritSki
Masks are another example where there is very little benefit from the
masks that most people wear and the way they wear them.
This is very true. £ Stretcher is selling some particularly useless ones, 2
for £1.29, made of a single layer of some sort of polyester jersey, in that
curious C shape made by sewing two pieces down the middle in a curve. The
ear loops being part of each side. Completely useless but they'll let you
in the shop...
Post by BrritSki
I bought some
N95 masks at the height of the pandemic and fit them as well as I can
round my nose and face, but I still doubt they provided me much
protection. Some maybe, but not much as studies have shown, and with
some possible downsides.
Um, you seem to have misunderstood the purpose of a mask - primarily it is
to protect others, not the mask wearer. Get everyone to wear them and
everyone gains. They won't stop all your exhalation from getting out into
the air, but will slow it down so it's less likely to travel far, and it
won't go straight into the face of the person you are talking to.
Food/drink being served indoors seems mad but I gather it is happening at
the moment in areas immediately adjacent to a space in the same building
where everyone has to wear a mask. Hmm, that might have been something D#1
told me about her return to working from the office...
Post by BrritSki
Wearing them outside is a complete waste of time.
Very probably.
Apart from the lies they have told, the government have repeatedly done, or
caused to be done, a large number of really stupid things with regard to
people flying in and out of the UK. It's history, we can't change it, but
they still seem to be making the same crazy errors. Was it 3 weeks between
the Indian variant being found in UK and the shutting down of flights in
from India? Then that shut-down was heralded by another 'in a few days
time' announcement, causing a manic influx of travellers from India who
mixed and mingled among other travellers at the airports and were not
required to quarantine.
Can I use this post to praise its umratic tone, to point out that an
un-umratic tone has been creeping into other posts in this thread and to
urge honorable umrats to consider before they press send?

Thought not.

john
Chris J Dixon
2021-06-22 18:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
Can I use this post to praise its umratic tone, to point out that an
un-umratic tone has been creeping into other posts in this thread and to
urge honorable umrats to consider before they press send?
Thought not.
Languid wave.

https://xkcd.com/386/

;-)

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.
Chris
2021-06-22 14:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Penny
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:31:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I'm very depressed that both politicians and media (to some extent,
politicians driven by media) have just clunked the cog another tooth,
and just named another date. They should have set some threshold(s) -
such as <800 in hospital and less than three deaths a day for a week.
Current figures - 1,316 in hospital, last 7 days' deaths 10, 9, 8, 15,
9, 7, 7 or 3, 10, 9, 19, 11, 14, 6 depending which method.
Basing the release on these, rather than a date, would encourage people
to be sensible, too.
Wasn't that the cry 'following the science not the date'?
Swiftly followed by announcement of dates - I despaired.
But the data IS good. The rates of hospitalisation and death (the only
things that matter re "protecting the NHS" rather than cases that are
elevated by the huge amount of testing we do (about 3x more than France,
4x more than Italy and almost 10x more than Germany and yet our deaths
are much less <https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing>))
<takes breath> are much lower than ANY of the SAGE estimates for
progress. So why are we locked down still ?
Post by Penny
There are good examples of better management on other islands around the
globe.
Presumably you're referring the NZ and Aus ? I would simply ask how
they think they're going to exit from their self-isolation ?
Aus and NZ have started to open their borders not just to each other but NZ
is open to the Cook Islands because there are a lot of Islanders in NZ.
This I have from an NZ friend. She tells me Fuji is a badly hit nation so
they’ve been closed. And one of the Aus states (think she said VIC) again
has had its borders closed.

Sincerely Chris
Post by BrritSki
I should point out that I am one of the alleged "vulnerable" due to my
COPD and BMI. I have followed all the guidelines and still do and have
had my jabs and urge other adults to do so (I don't think there's good
evidence for vaccinating children though).
However we are going to a Greek island on Saturday for a week. We'll be
in an apartment we know well where the only people we meet normaly are
the delightful owners. We'll spend all our time outdoors on the beach or
at outside restaurants. We've had enough, even if this holiday means
we'll have to quarantine on return and pay for extra tests. We have no
idea how many years we have left, but probably not many. We intend to
enjoy them, not cower in fear.
John Ashby
2021-06-21 12:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
dust...
Post by krw
Post by DavidK
It's mainly idle speculation but I wondered what other rats thought on
the subject.
We have deferred tickets from last year and are planning to go on the
first day this year (Tuesday) but I have trepidation.
One source says that there are usually 140,000 visitors across 6 days
but I don't know how evenly they are spread. The current rule for
outdoor meetings is
- 4,000 people or 50% of a site or venue’s capacity, whichever is lower
at outdoor events
so we are talking about a sixth of the usual attendance.
I usually dive into the main marquee before the crowds build up but it's
still a scrum. I envisage huge queues of gardeners as the bouncers
attempt to filter people in slowly enough to maintain 2 metre spacing.
PS. I only discovered by visiting the website that parking has to be
booked in advance
PPS. I'm astonished. When I last looked tickets were still available for
the first day (RHS members)
Go. The world is safe.
Erm, 65,558 new cases in UK in the past week.
Languid (third) wave.

To answer the points others make below, every infection gives the virus
a chance to mutate and produce a variant of concern. Insufficient weight
is being given by our political masters to this because they need to
boast about how effective their vaccination programme has been. The
programme has indeed been terrific, but it is only one front in the
viral war.

john
krw
2021-06-21 12:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ashby
To answer the points others make below, every infection gives the virus
a chance to mutate and produce a variant of concern. Insufficient weight
is being given by our political masters to this because they need to
boast about how effective their vaccination programme has been. The
programme has indeed been terrific, but it is only one front in the
viral war.
At some point we have to live with the risk as it will probably never be
zero. So overall are we at car crash levels, train derailment or space
travel levels of risk?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
BrritSki
2021-06-21 13:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by John Ashby
To answer the points others make below, every infection gives the
virus a chance to mutate and produce a variant of concern.
Insufficient weight is being given by our political masters to this
because they need to boast about how effective their vaccination
programme has been. The programme has indeed been terrific, but it is
only one front in the viral war.
At some point we have to live with the risk as it will probably never be
zero.  So overall are we at car crash levels, train derailment or space
travel levels of risk?
Exactly. We can't stay locked down forever. #ImDone
Penny
2021-06-21 18:08:36 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 13:59:24 +0100, krw <***@whitnet.uk> scrawled in the
dust...
Post by krw
Post by John Ashby
To answer the points others make below, every infection gives the virus
a chance to mutate and produce a variant of concern. Insufficient weight
is being given by our political masters to this because they need to
boast about how effective their vaccination programme has been. The
programme has indeed been terrific, but it is only one front in the
viral war.
At some point we have to live with the risk as it will probably never be
zero. So overall are we at car crash levels, train derailment or space
travel levels of risk?
As Nick pointed out, it rather depends who you are. The known vulnerables
(who live in their own homes) who have been behaving very sensibly
throughout which is why they have survived thus far, are condemned to
continue shielding at home forever while the rest of the world behaves as
if it's all gone away. They will thereby be _more_ vulnerable as other
safeguards stop. Add to them those who cannot be vaccinated and I'm sure
there are other groups [brain stopped].

None of those people would be in the car, on the train, or in space.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
BrritSki
2021-06-21 19:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
dust...
Post by krw
Post by John Ashby
To answer the points others make below, every infection gives the virus
a chance to mutate and produce a variant of concern. Insufficient weight
is being given by our political masters to this because they need to
boast about how effective their vaccination programme has been. The
programme has indeed been terrific, but it is only one front in the
viral war.
At some point we have to live with the risk as it will probably never be
zero. So overall are we at car crash levels, train derailment or space
travel levels of risk?
As Nick pointed out, it rather depends who you are. The known vulnerables
(who live in their own homes) who have been behaving very sensibly
throughout which is why they have survived thus far, are condemned to
continue shielding at home forever while the rest of the world behaves as
if it's all gone away. They will thereby be _more_ vulnerable as other
safeguards stop. Add to them those who cannot be vaccinated and I'm sure
there are other groups [brain stopped].
None of those people would be in the car, on the train, or in space.
How many vulnerable people does it need to make it sensible to keep the
safeguards in place forever ?
Penny
2021-06-22 07:46:49 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:25:15 +0100, BrritSki <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
How many vulnerable people does it need to make it sensible to keep the
safeguards in place forever ?
I don't know details of demographic of recent hospitalisations - do you?

From observation - and dispatches from Cornwall - many people, when away
from home on holiday (in Britain), feel they are on holiday from 'all that'
and don't need to follow the basic guidelines. It's frightening.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
BrritSki
2021-06-22 08:00:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
How many vulnerable people does it need to make it sensible to keep the
safeguards in place forever ?
I don't know details of demographic of recent hospitalisations - do you?
Didn't you see all the scary graphs recently that showed that the split
between old and young had gone from 60-40 to 70-30 ?
What they didn't mention of course is that in both groups the numbers
had declined dramatically, but at a much faster rate in the older
vaccinated cohort.
<https://lockdownsceptics.org/2021/06/15/a-doctor-writes-chris-whittys-slide-show-yesterday-was-a-blatant-exercise-in-biased-data-selection/>

The vaccines work, so we should be completely open now.
Post by Penny
From observation - and dispatches from Cornwall - many people, when away
from home on holiday (in Britain), feel they are on holiday from 'all that'
and don't need to follow the basic guidelines. It's frightening.
That is an entirely different matter.
steve hague
2021-06-22 08:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
How many vulnerable people does it need to make it sensible to keep the
safeguards in place forever ?
I don't know details of demographic of recent hospitalisations - do you?
From observation - and dispatches from Cornwall - many people, when away
from home on holiday (in Britain), feel they are on holiday from 'all that'
and don't need to follow the basic guidelines. It's frightening.
Rates of infection here in Cornwall rose dramatically last week. Some
blamed reckless holiday makers, some blamed the G7. The evidence seems
to show that it was mostly students in multiple occupancy accomodation,
un-vaccinated of course, though that is changing rapidly, and admissions
to hospital remain low. No-one seems to have died from or with Covid for
some time.
Steve
Chris
2021-06-22 14:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Penny
dust...
Post by krw
Post by John Ashby
To answer the points others make below, every infection gives the virus
a chance to mutate and produce a variant of concern. Insufficient weight
is being given by our political masters to this because they need to
boast about how effective their vaccination programme has been. The
programme has indeed been terrific, but it is only one front in the
viral war.
At some point we have to live with the risk as it will probably never be
zero. So overall are we at car crash levels, train derailment or space
travel levels of risk?
As Nick pointed out, it rather depends who you are. The known vulnerables
(who live in their own homes) who have been behaving very sensibly
throughout which is why they have survived thus far, are condemned to
continue shielding at home forever while the rest of the world behaves as
if it's all gone away. They will thereby be _more_ vulnerable as other
safeguards stop. Add to them those who cannot be vaccinated and I'm sure
there are other groups [brain stopped].
None of those people would be in the car, on the train, or in space.
How many vulnerable people does it need to make it sensible to keep the
safeguards in place forever ?
No one will care if we continue hiding in our underground bunkers. We’ll
become the ‘new forgotten’. As those who live in care homes so often are.
It surprises me how much time people if they go into care because of
physical needs only end up being in the phone talking to lots of people who
just don’t ‘get round’ to visiting. I know I have a number of elderly
frail friends in care and I’ve never managed to find time to visit or ring
them all up ultra regularly.

Sincerely Chris
Loading...