Discussion:
Article on young farmers in Times today
(too old to reply)
Kate B
2024-06-05 10:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Not yet available free on archive.org, but worth ferreting out tomorrow
or later. Scraped text below. I'm wondering if this is George's story
trajectory?

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-better-than-women-jq0gfsrg2

‘Some farmers treat their livestock better than their women’
From blatant misogyny to sexual assault, women are speaking out about
the toxic male agricultural scene. Is this farming’s #MeToo, asks Lucy
Holden

Sex, drugs, drink and combine harvesters with an appalling dollop of
misogyny. That’s the picture of modern farming seen by many of the young
women in the industry, according to female farmers speaking out this
week about the state of affairs at Young Farmers’ Clubs, where
rape-slogan T-shirts are worn by groping, hammered young men.

Farmers are the new toxic rugby lads, it seems. In fact, if a report in
Farmers Weekly written by its deputy editor Abi Kay is to be believed,
they’re even worse. She drew a devastating picture of male-female
relations at farming parties, where men treated women like “toys” and
sexual assault was “commonplace”. They are just not being held
accountable as other men are, Kay wrote, because these parties had
reputations for “sex, drugs and alcohol” and being “grabbed and groped”
was seen as coming with the territory. The women were almost expecting it.

A Twitter/X backlash featuring vile responses from dim men with farming
profile pictures only solidified her argument. One, Will Tinning, wrote:
“If you want better for the next generation, start educating the women
to not sleep with multiple men at this event and act like prostitutes on
social media.” His words rang out like those in various rape trials over
the decades, where ignorant judges suggested it wasn’t a surprise that
women in short skirts were raped — they were asking for it. Perhaps the
most telling part of Tinning’s tweet was its caveat. “I don’t condone
any mistreatment of women before you come at me but the young women need
educated [sic] aswell as the men,” he wrote.

Yet the fear of being ostracised in the farming community is exactly why
so few have spoken out until now, Sally Urwin, a sheep farmer from
Northumberland and the author of Diary of a Pint-Sized Farmer, says.
“Some National Federation of Young Farmers’ Clubs are great, some are
not,” she says. “If they’re being chaired by heavy-drinking, socially
unaware individuals, then that seems to be the focus of each event. It
can also be misogynistic — I’ve heard stories of men in their early
twenties seeing younger female newcomers under 18 as a target for sex.
‘Laddish’ behaviour is expected by both sexes and anyone not conforming
is left out.”

Urwin added that she expected a backlash for saying that. “I’ve no doubt
some of the community will come for me,” she says. “I’m not trying to
stop the clubs but maybe the safeguarding teams should look at some of
these events and meetings. It’s a fact — Young Farmers’ Clubs do a lot
of great things but so much of the culture revolves around very heavy
drinking and drugs. There needs to be more supervision.”


It’s not just at parties where this old-fashioned misogyny is sown as
regularly as the crops. Hannah Jackson, aka the Red Shepherdess and the
author of Call Me Red: A Shepherd’s Journey, experienced vitriolic
trolling upon moving from the Wirral to run a farm in Cumbria a few
years ago. After being accused of sleeping her way into the job, as
though she were a Mad Men secretary looking for promotion, she found
life on a farm marred by bullying male behaviour online. Kay’s report
didn’t surprise her at all.


“Just last week, before the report came out, my friend and I were
talking about how I would never really want to send my daughter, who is
one, to join a local Young Farmers’ Club in the future,” she says.
“Right now, it’s just a really toxic, quite sexualised culture. I just
think it’s hard enough being a girl at the minute and I’d hate for her
to be in that position one day. When I first came into farming, I chose
not to go to these events. It wasn’t my scene.”

As for Kay, it was a Young Farmers’ Club event in Blackpool last month
that crystallised how awful the lad culture in farming is. Slogans on
T-shirts worn by some men included “I can run faster horny than you can
scared” and “for the sporting birds I can tighten the choke”. “BBF” was
said to represent both “back British farming” and “bring back fingering”
— the T-shirt wearers were advocates for both, they said. Since when had
farming been so Benidorm stag do?

“Judging by the messages on the back of the T-shirts, some farmers treat
their livestock better than they treat their women,” Jackson says. “The
T-shirts are meant to be tongue-in-cheek but they’ve gotten more and
more outlandish.” By all accounts, it’s the kind of environment where
men would suggest the women in attendance either don’t wear T-shirts at
all or soak them with water in wet T-shirt competitions.


Clearly the booze plays into it hugely. A few years ago I dated a pea
farmer in Bath, and he often cancelled on me due to his alcohol
consumption. Usually he was too hungover from a Young Farmers’ ball or a
weekend shoot to keep any commitments the next day. Once he was unable
to make it because he couldn’t physically get to me. He had driven into
his own house, steaming drunk, and his mum had confiscated his car keys.

Farmers clearly have a very specific, impressive kind of practical
knowledge but you clearly didn’t have to be Einstein to take a module in
chainsaw maintenance at the Royal Agricultural University in
Cirencester. It was the idea that these men somehow didn’t realise how
damaging their views were that was the most dimwitted thing of all. Lots
of them simply weren’t very smart and my experience had shown me that in
person.


The one I dated had political views that were ill-thought-out (if at
all) and purely regurgitated, I guessed. He was clearly echoing things
he had heard men from an older generation say because, when questioned,
he didn’t really have any idea why he thought what he apparently did. He
knew his way around a pheasant and was almost gentlemanly with me, yet
his views on sex were basic and bizarre. He became obsessed with the
idea that I would go on a date with someone else and then let him have
sex with me in the bathrooms halfway through, but obviously I put that
one to bed by kicking him out of my bed soon after. Talk about men
wanting women to be a “toy”.

What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also racism)
less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and ploughing
competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem is with how
much that has been spilling over into real-life interactions between
young men and women. With clear-ups on university campuses well under
way, do we need to take a look at this other area where young people
fight to prove themselves to their peers? Even if they are just studying
how to use a chainsaw and getting up early to milk cows?


Being critical of the industry I love does not come easy. Anyone who is
familiar with my work will know I am a proud advocate for farmers,
having grown up in a farming family and worked in the sector for a
decade. But sometimes it is better to have a difficult conversation than
avoid one. And in the case of sexual assaults occurring too often at
young farmers’ social events, that is true.

Farmers Weekly recently published a report on this subject, which was
written after multiple interviews on and off the record with members and
former members of Young Farmers’ Clubs across the country, as well as
adults involved with clubs in a range of capacities.

It became clear that girls in some clubs have become used to having
their skirts pulled up, tops pulled down or being groped at these
parties. Since the story went live, I have had contact from many women
and girls.

All of them have thanked us for shining a light on a topic that has been
taboo for too long. And some of them have shared their experiences of
being members of Young Farmers’ Clubs — alleging more serious behaviour
than that detailed in our original article.

These stories include sexual acts being recorded without consent then
shared with other club members, spiking and even rape. Often, these
incidents go unreported — either to the clubs or the police — because of
a fear of social isolation.

In rural communities, everyone knows everyone, so to speak out puts you
at risk of being identified then ostracised. For others, a more
straightforward fear of the perpetrator stops them from talking.


Farmers Weekly and I have also faced serious criticism for our report.
This falls into six categories, with people saying we shouldn’t have
covered the story because:

1. Farmers work long hours and they deserve to have fun
2. We should be protecting young farmers at all costs
3. It’s just a joke
4. It didn’t happen
5. This is a societal problem, not a farming one
6. The girls are just as bad as the boys

No one wants to stop young farmers having fun. But there are some
unacceptable behaviours and stamping them out shouldn’t, for any
right-thinking person, make these events any less enjoyable. It will
protect the very young farmers.

For those saying it’s a joke, or it doesn’t happen, I would urge them to
take another look at the story and reconsider. As to the claim that this
is not a farming issue — I strongly disagree. We have a duty to report
what happens in our community, not cover it up.

And for those arguing that the girls are just as bad, I think there are
complex reasons driving this behaviour. Some women in farming are
conditioned to believe they need to prove themselves, and that spills
over from their professional lives into their social lives.

They feel they need to overcompensate everywhere, to outdo the boys. And
that includes drinking and sex. The sad thing is that this then locks
them into a cycle where the behaviour they are competing with becomes
more and more extreme — leading us to the point we’re at today.

No one is suggesting all young farmers are sexual predators. Most behave
admirably, do fantastic charity work and look after the women they know.
But the minority need calling out. Being part of a community brings with
it accountability.

I know this is difficult, especially for teenagers. If it’s hard for
girls to speak out, it’s hard for boys who are grappling with the same
social dynamics too. But we have to work together to bring cultural
change and create an environment where people aren’t afraid to talk
because they know they’ll be supported by their peers — not shunned — if
they do. We’re now on the first step of this road. Let’s keep moving
forward.
--
Kate B
J. P. Gilliver
2024-06-05 15:05:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate B
Not yet available free on archive.org, but worth ferreting out tomorrow
or later. Scraped text below. I'm wondering if this is George's story
trajectory?
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-bet
ter-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
‘Some farmers treat their livestock better than their women’
[snip]
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also racism)
less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and ploughing
competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem is with how
[snip]
Sounds like a pretty terrible situation, and it is understandable that
she has gone a bit over in some places. But the above two are examples:
I don't think either are symbolic of misogyny. Wasn't/isn't Eddie's
favourite ferret a female? Not that I particularly like the concept of
ferret-racing, but I don't see it as being either intrinsically a male
pastime, nor one females (of the human variety) should be any worse at;
as for ploughing, I thought - treading a fine line here, lest I be
accused of something _whatever_ I say next - there was some evidence
that women are _better_ at it.

Who would George abuse (physically or mentally) in this way?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

User Error: Replace user, hit any key to continue.
Kate B
2024-06-05 17:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Kate B
Not yet available free on archive.org, but worth ferreting out
tomorrow or later. Scraped text below. I'm wondering if this is
George's story trajectory?
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-bet
ter-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
‘Some farmers treat their livestock better than their women’
[snip]
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also racism)
less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and ploughing
competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem is with how
[snip]
Sounds like a pretty terrible situation, and it is understandable that
I don't think either are symbolic of misogyny. Wasn't/isn't Eddie's
favourite ferret a female? Not that I particularly like the concept of
ferret-racing, but I don't see it as being either intrinsically a male
pastime, nor one females (of the human variety) should be any worse at;
as for ploughing, I thought - treading a fine line here, lest I be
accused of something _whatever_ I say next - there was some evidence
that women are _better_ at it.
The point she's making about ferret-racing, ploughing, etc, etc is not
that women could do it as well. Woman can do - and always have been able
to do - all sorts of things that men regard as their domain. We're
interlopers, bringing different attitudes and ways of working and they
often dislike and distrust us. In fact, quite often, the better we are
at it, the worse we are treated. I spent most of my career being
underestimated and devalued by men. And honestly, having a favourite
female ferret says less than nothing about misogyny. Eddie isn't
particularly misogynistic, but he certainly takes Clarrie shockingly for
granted. And George does have a problem with women as we've seen all too
often, with Hannah and Fallon amongst others.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Who would George abuse (physically or mentally) in this way?
Any girl who gets involved with him.
--
Kate B
J. P. Gilliver
2024-06-05 19:32:24 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Kate B
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also
racism) less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and
ploughing competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem
[]
Post by Kate B
The point she's making about ferret-racing, ploughing, etc, etc is not
that women could do it as well. Woman can do - and always have been
able to do - all sorts of things that men regard as their domain. We're
interlopers, bringing different attitudes and ways of working and they
often dislike and distrust us. In fact, quite often, the better we are
at it, the worse we are treated. I spent most of my career being
Oh, I agree. I just found "this is a world where ferret-racing and
ploughing competitions still exist" a little odd, as it implied that
those activities were _intrinsically_ related to misogyny, which I
didn't think they were.
[]
Post by Kate B
for granted. And George does have a problem with women as we've seen
all too often, with Hannah and Fallon amongst others.
Agreed. He's just a nasty piece of work altogether. Closer to umbrella
the slave-master than to Tiger (who I didn't like either).
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

To keep leaf vegetables clean and crisp, cook lightly, then plunge into iced
water (the vegetables, that is). - manual for a Russell Hobbs electric steamer
Serena Blanchflower
2024-06-06 08:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Kate B
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also
racism)  less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and
ploughing  competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem
[]
Post by Kate B
The point she's making about ferret-racing, ploughing, etc, etc is not
that women could do it as well. Woman can do - and always have been
able to do - all sorts of things that men regard as their domain.
We're interlopers, bringing different attitudes and ways of working
and they often dislike and distrust us. In fact, quite often, the
better we are at it, the worse we are treated. I spent most of my
career being
Oh, I agree. I just found "this is a world where ferret-racing and
ploughing competitions still exist" a little odd, as it implied that
those activities were _intrinsically_ related to misogyny, which I
didn't think they were.
[]
Yes, I found that a bit odd, too. My guess is that, while activities
like that aren't intrinsically misogynistic, they are associated[1] with
an old fashioned way of life which was more misogynistic than is normal
in the modern world.


[1] At least in the mind of the author
--
Best wishes, Serena
Q. What did the great explorer eat in the jungle?
A. Steak and pygmy pie.
v***@gmail.com
2024-06-05 17:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Kate B
Not yet available free on archive.org, but worth ferreting out tomorrow
or later. Scraped text below. I'm wondering if this is George's story
trajectory?
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-bet
ter-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
‘Some farmers treat their livestock better than their women’
[snip]
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also racism)
less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and ploughing
competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem is with how
[snip]
Sounds like a pretty terrible situation, and it is understandable that
I don't think either are symbolic of misogyny. Wasn't/isn't Eddie's
favourite ferret a female? Not that I particularly like the concept of
ferret-racing, but I don't see it as being either intrinsically a male
pastime, nor one females (of the human variety) should be any worse at;
as for ploughing, I thought - treading a fine line here, lest I be
accused of something _whatever_ I say next - there was some evidence
that women are _better_ at it.
Who would George abuse (physically or mentally) in this way?
George would join other young men if at a party and possibly spike
someone's drink and abuse them.
Kosmo
2024-06-05 22:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Kate B
Not yet available free on archive.org, but worth ferreting out
tomorrow or later. Scraped text below. I'm wondering if this is
George's story trajectory?
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-bet
ter-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
‘Some farmers treat their livestock better than their women’
[snip]
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also racism)
less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and ploughing
competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem is with how
[snip]
Sounds like a pretty terrible situation, and it is understandable that
I don't think either are symbolic of misogyny. Wasn't/isn't Eddie's
favourite ferret a female? Not that I particularly like the concept of
ferret-racing, but I don't see it as being either intrinsically a male
pastime, nor one females (of the human variety) should be any worse at;
as for ploughing, I thought - treading a fine line here, lest I be
accused of something _whatever_ I say next - there was some evidence
that women are _better_ at it.
I remember writing a post about this earlier today - quite a long one.

Has anyone seen it?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
v***@gmail.com
2024-06-06 05:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kosmo
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Kate B
Not yet available free on archive.org, but worth ferreting out
tomorrow or later. Scraped text below. I'm wondering if this is
George's story trajectory?
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-bet
ter-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
‘Some farmers treat their livestock better than their women’
[snip]
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also racism)
less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and ploughing
competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem is with how
[snip]
Sounds like a pretty terrible situation, and it is understandable that
I don't think either are symbolic of misogyny. Wasn't/isn't Eddie's
favourite ferret a female? Not that I particularly like the concept of
ferret-racing, but I don't see it as being either intrinsically a male
pastime, nor one females (of the human variety) should be any worse at;
as for ploughing, I thought - treading a fine line here, lest I be
accused of something _whatever_ I say next - there was some evidence
that women are _better_ at it.
I remember writing a post about this earlier today - quite a long one.
Has anyone seen it?
yes
john ashby
2024-06-06 06:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kosmo
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Kate B
Not yet available free on archive.org, but worth ferreting out
tomorrow or later. Scraped text below. I'm wondering if this is
George's story trajectory?
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-bet
ter-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
‘Some farmers treat their livestock better than their women’
[snip]
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also racism)
less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and ploughing
competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem is with how
[snip]
Sounds like a pretty terrible situation, and it is understandable that
I don't think either are symbolic of misogyny. Wasn't/isn't Eddie's
favourite ferret a female? Not that I particularly like the concept of
ferret-racing, but I don't see it as being either intrinsically a male
pastime, nor one females (of the human variety) should be any worse at;
as for ploughing, I thought - treading a fine line here, lest I be
accused of something _whatever_ I say next - there was some evidence
that women are _better_ at it.
I remember writing a post about this earlier today - quite a long one.
Has anyone seen it?
yes
No.

john
Kosmo
2024-06-06 07:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Kate B
Not yet available free on archive.org, but worth ferreting out
tomorrow or later. Scraped text below. I'm wondering if this is
George's story trajectory?
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-bet
ter-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
‘Some farmers treat their livestock better than their women’
[snip]
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also racism)
less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and ploughing
competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem is with how
[snip]
Sounds like a pretty terrible situation, and it is understandable that
I don't think either are symbolic of misogyny. Wasn't/isn't Eddie's
favourite ferret a female? Not that I particularly like the concept of
ferret-racing, but I don't see it as being either intrinsically a male
pastime, nor one females (of the human variety) should be any worse at;
as for ploughing, I thought - treading a fine line here, lest I be
accused of something _whatever_ I say next - there was some evidence
that women are _better_ at it.
Reposted - it did not return to me although has been seen by Vicky.

I think the particular point of comment is that whilst farmers may
indulge in some perfectly normal hobby activities (ferrets, ploughing
etc) as a comparison to the abuses indicated. None of the reported
presentation of male farmers is arguably untrue - after all I have no
contact with Young Farmers - however to me it feels that given the less
repressed attitudes passed from parents to children in my generation,
the further abdication in the belief of authority applied by my children
and then the additional dilution into the generation of my grandchildren
such unwelcome behaviour becomes more commonplace as the authority which
ought to exist in (say) politicians or royalty is undermined by the
abuse that both those and others receive from the media alongside the
utter disrepute that business managers (such as the Post Office) and the
opprobrium which descends on them goes a long way to explain such
unutterably despicable behaviour.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
v***@gmail.com
2024-06-06 10:53:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kosmo
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Kate B
Not yet available free on archive.org, but worth ferreting out
tomorrow or later. Scraped text below. I'm wondering if this is
George's story trajectory?
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-bet
ter-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
‘Some farmers treat their livestock better than their women’
[snip]
Post by Kate B
What stood out the most, perhaps, were the old-fashioned values that
still rage in his world, which of course make sexism (and also racism)
less taboo. This is a world where ferret-racing and ploughing
competitions still exist, remember. However, the problem is with how
[snip]
Sounds like a pretty terrible situation, and it is understandable that
I don't think either are symbolic of misogyny. Wasn't/isn't Eddie's
favourite ferret a female? Not that I particularly like the concept of
ferret-racing, but I don't see it as being either intrinsically a male
pastime, nor one females (of the human variety) should be any worse at;
as for ploughing, I thought - treading a fine line here, lest I be
accused of something _whatever_ I say next - there was some evidence
that women are _better_ at it.
Reposted - it did not return to me although has been seen by Vicky.
I think the particular point of comment is that whilst farmers may
indulge in some perfectly normal hobby activities (ferrets, ploughing
etc) as a comparison to the abuses indicated. None of the reported
presentation of male farmers is arguably untrue - after all I have no
contact with Young Farmers - however to me it feels that given the less
repressed attitudes passed from parents to children in my generation,
the further abdication in the belief of authority applied by my children
and then the additional dilution into the generation of my grandchildren
such unwelcome behaviour becomes more commonplace as the authority which
ought to exist in (say) politicians or royalty is undermined by the
abuse that both those and others receive from the media alongside the
utter disrepute that business managers (such as the Post Office) and the
opprobrium which descends on them goes a long way to explain such
unutterably despicable behaviour.
Actually I don't think I saw it. I'm very sorry and can't find it now.
I suppose I saw some responses to the subject.

Nick Odell
2024-06-05 17:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate B
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-better-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
It looks as if somebody archived it about six hours ago and it can now
be found at https://archive.ph/MSzMR

If you ever want to archive a newspaper article, just paste the url
into the search box at https://archive.ph and the site will either
tell that it already has a copy on file or take you through the steps
to archive it yourself.

Very interesting article: thanks for sharing it.

Nick
Kate B
2024-06-05 17:22:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Kate B
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/society/article/farmers-sexism-livestock-better-than-women-jq0gfsrg2
It looks as if somebody archived it about six hours ago and it can now
be found at https://archive.ph/MSzMR
If you ever want to archive a newspaper article, just paste the url
into the search box at https://archive.ph and the site will either
tell that it already has a copy on file or take you through the steps
to archive it yourself.
Very interesting article: thanks for sharing it.
Nick
Thanks, Nick - I did try that first thing this morning but couldn't get
it to work. Serena also tells me that I can share the original Times
story, so I'll remember both for next time.
--
Kate B
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