Ask UMRA: Carers allowance reclaims

[Nick Odell]

I wanted to ask uk.legal.moderated but they seem to have been down for
rather a long time so..
<https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/07/why-are-so-many-carers-taken-to-court-for-benefit>

This is not about the abysmal way in which governments of every
flavour in recent years have exploited the goodwill of family carers
nor about the fairness or otherwise of clawing back money from carers
which wouldn't have been overpaid if the DWP systems had worked
properly in the first place but about whether any family has a legal
obligation to care for its adult members anyway?

Where I am at the moment families have a legal responsibility under
the criminal law for the care of their elderly and/or infirm adults
but I am under the impression that no such legal responsibility
applies in the UK.

A Meringue?

I formed that impression because when my kids were still kids of
around sixteen years old, they brought home one of their college
friends and asked if he could stay with us for a while. His mother's
boyfriend had told her that he would leave her if she didn't chuck out
her son from their home so out he went and she refused to let him come
back home. Nice people, I hear you saying. Unfortunately there are a
lot of them around.

The boy stayed with us for a while until the local authority could
find a small flat for him but as far as I know there were no
repercussions for his family. I can't see the loving, caring people
around me who tend their adult relatives casting them out into the
street even though it might be the only way to shake out the
complacency in the system but, if they wanted to do that, is there
anything stopping them?

Nick

[Kosmo]

Post by Nick Odell
I wanted to ask uk.legal.moderated but they seem to have been down for
rather a long time so..
<https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/07/why-are-so-many-carers-taken-to-court-for-benefit>
This is not about the abysmal way in which governments of every
flavour in recent years have exploited the goodwill of family carers
nor about the fairness or otherwise of clawing back money from carers
which wouldn't have been overpaid if the DWP systems had worked
properly in the first place but about whether any family has a legal
obligation to care for its adult members anyway?
Where I am at the moment families have a legal responsibility under
the criminal law for the care of their elderly and/or infirm adults
but I am under the impression that no such legal responsibility
applies in the UK.
A Meringue?
I formed that impression because when my kids were still kids of
around sixteen years old, they brought home one of their college
friends and asked if he could stay with us for a while. His mother's
boyfriend had told her that he would leave her if she didn't chuck out
her son from their home so out he went and she refused to let him come
back home. Nice people, I hear you saying. Unfortunately there are a
lot of them around.
The boy stayed with us for a while until the local authority could
find a small flat for him but as far as I know there were no
repercussions for his family. I can't see the loving, caring people
around me who tend their adult relatives casting them out into the
street even though it might be the only way to shake out the
complacency in the system but, if they wanted to do that, is there
anything stopping them?
Nick

It is my belief that in the UK there is no legislation forcing any adult
to undertake care for another adult (which I have always assumed to mean
from age 18) under 18 I believe that there is a legal requirement for
care but if the parents decline then the local authority has to step in.

I believe there is nothing enforcing care of senior citizens either
which again devolves on the local authority. However the local
authority would wish to know about ownership of any property or official
tenant of any leasehold as family members cannot deprive an owner or
change the tenant - in the case of ownership the local authority will
take a charge to recover fees following the death of the individual.

I can speak with absolute authority on the DWP seeking to reclaim
"overpayments". We received benefits during Stephanie's life and she
was also a part time resident at school - all disclosed at the time.
Following her death my wife was asked to prove when she was at school
and when she was at home to ensure that benefits had not been overpaid.
As we had no records we asked them to contact the school as they would
have the attendance records. After being worried for many weeks, nay
months, we eventually received a letter confirming that even if we had
been overpaid there was no liability. I accept that the state should
not overpay benefits - but in Stephanie's case her death was more than
three years after she left school and we had always sought to ensure
declaration on her status when making claims and ensuring benefits ended
when she entered permanent care.

[BrritSki]

Post by Nick Odell
I wanted to ask uk.legal.moderated but they seem to have been down

Not so, I have been having an interesting conversation over there for
the last few days....

[nick]

Post by BrritSki

Post by Nick Odell
I wanted to ask uk.legal.moderated but they seem to have been down

Not so, I have been having an interesting conversation over there for
the last few days....

I think the post in that thread (which I agree is a jolly interesting one) which appeared early on Saturday morning was the last one before traffic reappeared this morning. If I had hung on a little longer I could indeed have asked ulm. No need to go elsewhere though. Serena, thank you. You confirmed what I thought.

I had just idly been wondering how wise the government might be, in a cost of living crisis, to further demean family carers by paying them so little then to prosecute them because their own systems couldn't cope with carers actually going out and doing what the DWP had been encouraging them to do. It all looks very much like rounding up the people teetering on the brink and pushing them over into the abyss and if a hundred thousand or so carers were to say "Sod this for a game of soldiers, I'm off. Sorry, Dad, you're on your own now" then that would teach the buggers, wouldn't it? Sorry about old Dad, though.

Nick

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by nick
I had just idly been wondering how wise the government might be, in a
cost of living crisis, to further demean family carers by paying them so
little then to prosecute them because their own systems couldn't cope
with carers actually going out and doing what the DWP had been
encouraging them to do. It all looks very much like rounding up the
people teetering on the brink and pushing them over into the abyss and
if a hundred thousand or so carers were to say "Sod this for a game of
soldiers, I'm off. Sorry, Dad, you're on your own now" then that would
teach the buggers, wouldn't it? Sorry about old Dad, though.

I completely agree with you. The polite way of putting it is that it's
completely ridiculous[1], and that there are any number of people, being
paid a pittance (a whole £81.90 per week) for at least 35 hours per week
caring for someone close to them. This is done in the full knowledge
that, if they walked away from their parent / partner / whoever, the
council would have to pick up the slack. This would cost the country
far more and the person receiving the care would, almost certainly,
receive far less.



[1] There are plenty of much angrier, and ruder, ways this could be
described.

[Joe Kerr]

Post by nick
I had just idly been wondering how wise the government might be, in a
cost of living crisis, to further demean family carers by paying them
so little then to prosecute them because their own systems couldn't
cope with carers actually going out and doing what the DWP had been
encouraging them to do. It all looks very much like rounding up the
people teetering on the brink and pushing them over into the abyss and
if a hundred thousand or so carers were to say "Sod this for a game of
soldiers, I'm off. Sorry, Dad, you're on your own now" then that would
teach the buggers, wouldn't it? Sorry about old Dad, though.

I completely agree with you.  The polite way of putting it is that it's
completely ridiculous[1], and that there are any number of people, being
paid a pittance (a whole £81.90 per week) for at least 35 hours per week
caring for someone close to them.  This is done in the full knowledge
that, if they walked away from their parent / partner / whoever, the
council would have to pick up the slack.  This would cost the country
far more and the person receiving the care would, almost certainly,
receive far less.

Social services will provide some help but much (most?) of what is
needed is means tested so has to be paid for by the recipient. I thought
of it as protecting my inheritance as well as ensuring suitable care was
available. Even then suitable care was hard to find and not necessarily
suitable. If anyone is interested I, would recommend contacting an
appropriate support charity (if available). They can be invaluable at
providing help and making things happen.

[1]  There are plenty of much angrier, and ruder, ways this could be
described.

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by Nick Odell
Where I am at the moment families have a legal responsibility under
the criminal law for the care of their elderly and/or infirm adults
but I am under the impression that no such legal responsibility
applies in the UK.
A Meringue?

No, I'm pretty sure you don't have to get the eggs out. There's no
legal responsibility but you may be subjected to a fair level of
emotional blackmail if you try to step away from the situation,
especially if your care could keep your relative out of local authority
care.

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by Nick Odell
I wanted to ask uk.legal.moderated but they seem to have been down for
rather a long time so..

I see they now seem to have recovered, if you want to check with them,
as well.