Discussion:
Election
(too old to reply)
john ashby
2024-07-05 07:20:51 UTC
Permalink
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?

john
BrritSki
2024-07-05 07:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
A party won but with only 20% of the total voter population.
Even less than voted for Brexit, so the result has been declared void.
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-05 07:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does
anyone know what happened?
A party won but with only 20% of the total voter population.
Even less than voted for Brexit, so the result has been declared void.
(-:

I don't _think_ there is actually such a minimum, for UK MP elections
(nor many if any other things in UK politics, though private
organisations sometimes do have one).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

live your dash. ... On your tombstone, there's the date you're born and the
date you die - and in between there's a dash. - a friend quoted by Dustin
Hoffman in Radio Times, 5-11 January 2013
Sam Plusnet
2024-07-05 19:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does
anyone know what happened?
A party won but with only 20% of the total voter population.
Even less than voted for Brexit, so the result has been declared void.
Consequently, Borsetshire has seceded from the United Kingdom.

Plans are being made to manage trade across the borders - we can expect
them to be completed within the next twenty years (or so).
Joe Kerr
2024-07-05 20:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does
anyone know what happened?
A party won but with only 20% of the total voter population.
Even less than voted for Brexit, so the result has been declared void.
Consequently, Borsetshire has seceded from the United Kingdom.
Plans are being made to manage trade across the borders - we can expect
them to be completed within the next twenty years (or so).
Do you think Liz Truss will go to negotiate new pork deals? It's not as
if she has anything else to do now.
--
Ric
Nick Odell
2024-07-05 22:18:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does
anyone know what happened?
A party won but with only 20% of the total voter population.
Even less than voted for Brexit, so the result has been declared void.
Consequently, Borsetshire has seceded from the United Kingdom.
Plans are being made to manage trade across the borders - we can expect
them to be completed within the next twenty years (or so).
Do you think Liz Truss will go to negotiate new pork deals? It's not as
if she has anything else to do now.
Do you suppose that "Were you still up for Truss" will come to have
the same cachet as "Were You Still Up For Portillo"? If so, I'm afraid
I failed the test. I was still up at 5am but when the BBC Radio
election special announced that they were recounting the vote in her
constituency again, I gave up and went to bed. That result came in at
around 7am, I gather.

Nick
john ashby
2024-07-06 06:19:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does
anyone know what happened?
A party won but with only 20% of the total voter population.
Even less than voted for Brexit, so the result has been declared void.
Consequently, Borsetshire has seceded from the United Kingdom.
Plans are being made to manage trade across the borders - we can expect
them to be completed within the next twenty years (or so).
Do you think Liz Truss will go to negotiate new pork deals? It's not as
if she has anything else to do now.
Do you suppose that "Were you still up for Truss" will come to have
the same cachet as "Were You Still Up For Portillo"? If so, I'm afraid
I failed the test. I was still up at 5am but when the BBC Radio
election special announced that they were recounting the vote in her
constituency again, I gave up and went to bed. That result came in at
around 7am, I gather.
Nick
You missed a doozy, then. The long wait for her to appear on the
platformwas television at its finest (especially the candidate who gave
us an impromptu exercise class). I;ve still not seen an explanation for
what kept her so long but I have a good idea what it was. Have you ever
seen Plaza SUite? The act where the bride has locked herself in the
hotel bathroom before her wedding and her parents are in the room
pleading with her to come out. That was Liz, if you ask me.

john
Nick Odell
2024-07-06 19:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by john ashby
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does
anyone know what happened?
A party won but with only 20% of the total voter population.
Even less than voted for Brexit, so the result has been declared void.
Consequently, Borsetshire has seceded from the United Kingdom.
Plans are being made to manage trade across the borders - we can expect
them to be completed within the next twenty years (or so).
Do you think Liz Truss will go to negotiate new pork deals? It's not as
if she has anything else to do now.
Do you suppose that "Were you still up for Truss" will come to have
the same cachet as "Were You Still Up For Portillo"? If so, I'm afraid
I failed the test. I was still up at 5am but when the BBC Radio
election special announced that they were recounting the vote in her
constituency again, I gave up and went to bed. That result came in at
around 7am, I gather.
Nick
You missed a doozy, then. The long wait for her to appear on the
platformwas television at its finest (especially the candidate who gave
us an impromptu exercise class). I;ve still not seen an explanation for
what kept her so long but I have a good idea what it was. Have you ever
seen Plaza SUite? The act where the bride has locked herself in the
hotel bathroom before her wedding and her parents are in the room
pleading with her to come out. That was Liz, if you ask me.
Tim Adams' take on the matter in the Guardian today more or less
confirms your impressions. And then of course she just nuggered off
without saying a word: a George Galloway tribute act.

Norfolk and good eh?

<https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/06/she-wasnt-sure-how-to-get-off-the-stage-liz-trusss-ungracious-count-retreat-caps-political-humiliation>

Nick
Mike McMillan
2024-07-05 07:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Hazel Wooley romped home with 99% of the votes.
--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan
Sam Plusnet
2024-07-05 19:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike McMillan
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Hazel Wooley romped home with 99% of the votes.
Not the first time "Hazel Wooley" and "romp" have been used in a single
sentence.
Pete W
2024-07-05 09:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Has it even been mentioned? I guess there might be a topical insert
shortly.

Apart from possible topical inserts have elections every been
discussed in the run up to election day on TA? I can't think of any.
---
Pete.
Serena Blanchflower
2024-07-05 09:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete W
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Has it even been mentioned? I guess there might be a topical insert
shortly.
Apart from possible topical inserts have elections every been
discussed in the run up to election day on TA? I can't think of any.
There was a passing reference, from Kenton, to Jolene having gone out to
vote, to explain her absence, when Lilian arrived at The Bull.
--
Best wishes, Serena
I once worked at a cheap pizza shop to get by. I kneaded the dough.
Pete W
2024-07-05 10:09:31 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Jul 2024 10:39:26 +0100, Serena Blanchflower
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Pete W
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Has it even been mentioned? I guess there might be a topical insert
shortly.
Apart from possible topical inserts have elections every been
discussed in the run up to election day on TA? I can't think of any.
There was a passing reference, from Kenton, to Jolene having gone out to
vote, to explain her absence, when Lilian arrived at The Bull.
Thank you. I should have waited until after today's repeat. I missed
last evening's episode.

Can you remember - has an election ever been discussed/ mentioned
prior to election day?
---
Pete.
Serena Blanchflower
2024-07-05 12:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete W
Can you remember - has an election ever been discussed/ mentioned
prior to election day?
I don't remember any discussions about general elections before the
event but Mark Hebden stood for the council, for the SDP, so I'm sure
there will have been discussions about the local elections that year. I
don't actually remember the result but, as I don't remember him having
been a councillor, I assume he didn't win.
--
Best wishes, Serena
If all goes well, this year's drama will be next year's anecdote
(Humphrey Littleton)
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-05 19:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Pete W
Can you remember - has an election ever been discussed/ mentioned
prior to election day?
I would imagine the 3 weeks (is that right?) lag, as well as the
(perceived at least) requirement for impartiality, would make such
matters difficult.
Post by Serena Blanchflower
I don't remember any discussions about general elections before the
event but Mark Hebden stood for the council, for the SDP, so I'm sure
there will have been discussions about the local elections that year. I
don't actually remember the result but, as I don't remember him having
been a councillor, I assume he didn't win.
Ditto (to both the not remembering and the assumption).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Can a blue man sing the whites?
Clive Arthur
2024-07-05 10:09:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Pete W
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Has it even been mentioned? I guess there might be a topical insert
shortly.
Apart from possible topical inserts have elections every been
discussed in the run up to election day on TA? I can't think of any.
There was a passing reference, from Kenton, to Jolene having gone out to
vote, to explain her absence,  when Lilian arrived at The Bull.
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station? Was Jim Lloyd the
Presiding Officer?
--
Cheers
Clive
Chris J Dixon
2024-07-05 14:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station?
I noticed on some pictures on TV that there were signs for
"Polling Place", which seems more logical, and perhaps accessible
for the unfamiliar.

I wonder what the original reason is for calling them "Stations"?
Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.
Clive Arthur
2024-07-05 16:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Clive Arthur
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station?
I noticed on some pictures on TV that there were signs for
"Polling Place", which seems more logical, and perhaps accessible
for the unfamiliar.
I wonder what the original reason is for calling them "Stations"?
Chris
Because they're the stations of the cross, of course, as well as being
where the polling stationary is.
--
Cheers
Clive
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-05 19:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris J Dixon
Post by Clive Arthur
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station?
I noticed on some pictures on TV that there were signs for
"Polling Place", which seems more logical, and perhaps accessible
for the unfamiliar.
I wonder what the original reason is for calling them "Stations"?
Chris
I think "station" just meant a place, location, etc. where more or less
any activity was done; etymologically (no, I'm not going to ask brother)
I think it has an element of stopping about it, as in somewhere you stop
to do something.

Taking your "Polling Place" further, something better for the unfamiliar
would surely be "voting place" (or "point"); I'm not sure what polling
originally meant, but nowadays the unfamiliar would probably think it
means somewhere where only a fraction have their opinion gathered, and
that for media coverage purposes rather than election. (I think "voting"
is still fairly unambiguous.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Can a blue man sing the whites?
Jenny M Benson
2024-07-06 19:46:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Taking your "Polling Place" further, something better for the unfamiliar
would surely be "voting place" (or "point"); I'm not sure what polling
originally meant,
Short for "counting of polls" - ie counting of heads, I imagine. Quite
why we often count "heads" rather than whole bodies I don't know, but a
farmer may well tell you he has "n head of cattle" and Poll Tax is a tax
on individual people, I think.
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-06 22:52:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Taking your "Polling Place" further, something better for the
unfamiliar would surely be "voting place" (or "point"); I'm not sure
what polling originally meant,
Short for "counting of polls" - ie counting of heads, I imagine. Quite
Ah, that sort of makes sense.
Post by Jenny M Benson
why we often count "heads" rather than whole bodies I don't know, but a
farmer may well tell you he has "n head of cattle" and Poll Tax is a
tax on individual people, I think.
Maybe it's easier to see heads; if a farmer has a sea of (nowadays)
black and white, it's maybe easier to count heads than bodies. Similarly
with a crowd of humans.

I think you may be right about the poll tax; I'd always thought from the
name that it was a tax on the right to vote, but (see above re the
meaning of poll and) universal suffrage is relatively recent, so you may
well be right. Would justify more the poll tax riots (I don't mean the
1980s ones, I mean those of some centuries ago).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

What has happened since 1979, I suspect, is that the spotting of mistakes has
become entirely associated with mean-spiritedness, snobbishness and
judgementalism. But...can be...funny and interesting.
Lynn Truss, RT 2015/2/21-27
Steveski
2024-07-06 23:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Taking your "Polling Place" further, something better for the
unfamiliar  would surely be "voting place" (or "point"); I'm not sure
what polling  originally meant,
Short for "counting of polls" - ie counting of heads, I imagine.  Quite
Ah, that sort of makes sense.
why we often count "heads" rather than whole bodies I don't know, but
a farmer may well tell you he has "n head of cattle" and Poll Tax is a
tax on individual people, I think.
Maybe it's easier to see heads; if a farmer has a sea of (nowadays)
black and white, it's maybe easier to count heads than bodies.
Count the legs and divide by four.
--
Steveski
john ashby
2024-07-07 05:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steveski
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Taking your "Polling Place" further, something better for the
unfamiliar  would surely be "voting place" (or "point"); I'm not
sure what polling  originally meant,
Short for "counting of polls" - ie counting of heads, I imagine.  Quite
Ah, that sort of makes sense.
why we often count "heads" rather than whole bodies I don't know, but
a farmer may well tell you he has "n head of cattle" and Poll Tax is
a tax on individual people, I think.
Maybe it's easier to see heads; if a farmer has a sea of (nowadays)
black and white, it's maybe easier to count heads than bodies.
Count the legs and divide by four.
Not a good strategy if the farmer's name is Starkadder,

john
Iain Archer
2024-07-09 01:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Clive Arthur
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station?
I noticed on some pictures on TV that there were signs for "Polling
Place", which seems more logical, and perhaps accessible for the
unfamiliar.
I wonder what the original reason is for calling them "Stations"?
Chris
I think "station" just meant a place, location, etc. where more or less
any activity was done; etymologically (no, I'm not going to ask brother)
I think it has an element of stopping about it, as in somewhere you stop
to do something.
I checked the British Newspaper Archive this evening and found it being
used as early as the 1870s. No relevant legislation found to check as
possible sources. The sensible thing is and would have been
to go straight to OED online.

Nick Odell
2024-07-05 15:08:19 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Jul 2024 11:09:53 +0100, Clive Arthur
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Pete W
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Has it even been mentioned? I guess there might be a topical insert
shortly.
Apart from possible topical inserts have elections every been
discussed in the run up to election day on TA? I can't think of any.
There was a passing reference, from Kenton, to Jolene having gone out to
vote, to explain her absence,  when Lilian arrived at The Bull.
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station? Was Jim Lloyd the
Presiding Officer?
I'm sure Jim would have liked to be presiding officer but I rather
fear that his tendency towards didacticism might disqualify him.

But is Ambridge big enough? You be the judge...

This...
<https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1918955/britains-weirdest-polling-stations-cemetery-caravan>

or this...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-67689434
(Ballot box to serve one voter in Perthshire hamlet)

Nick
Sam Plusnet
2024-07-05 19:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Fri, 5 Jul 2024 11:09:53 +0100, Clive Arthur
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Pete W
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Has it even been mentioned? I guess there might be a topical insert
shortly.
Apart from possible topical inserts have elections every been
discussed in the run up to election day on TA? I can't think of any.
There was a passing reference, from Kenton, to Jolene having gone out to
vote, to explain her absence,  when Lilian arrived at The Bull.
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station? Was Jim Lloyd the
Presiding Officer?
I'm sure Jim would have liked to be presiding officer but I rather
fear that his tendency towards didacticism might disqualify him.
But is Ambridge big enough? You be the judge...
This...
<https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1918955/britains-weirdest-polling-stations-cemetery-caravan>
or this...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-67689434
(Ballot box to serve one voter in Perthshire hamlet)
I wonder if they have tried to get that single voter to do a postal vote?
I wonder if he actually did vote?
Joe Kerr
2024-07-05 20:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Nick Odell
On Fri, 5 Jul 2024 11:09:53 +0100, Clive Arthur
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Pete W
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Has it even been mentioned? I guess there might be a topical insert
shortly.
Apart from possible topical inserts have elections every been
discussed in the run up to election day on TA? I can't think of any.
There was a passing reference, from Kenton, to Jolene having gone out to
vote, to explain her absence,  when Lilian arrived at The Bull.
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station?  Was Jim Lloyd the
Presiding Officer?
I'm sure Jim would have liked to be presiding officer but I rather
fear that his tendency towards didacticism might disqualify him.
But is Ambridge big enough? You be the judge...
This...
<https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1918955/britains-weirdest-polling-stations-cemetery-caravan>
or this...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-67689434
(Ballot box to serve one voter in Perthshire hamlet)
I wonder if they have tried to get that single voter to do a postal vote?
I wonder if he actually did vote?
It's a bit of an obligation really. Unless he can phone up the day
before and say "Don't bother coming. It looks like rain."

Do they have to stay open until 22:00 or can they knock off when they
reach 100% turnout?
--
Ric
john ashby
2024-07-06 06:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Nick Odell
On Fri, 5 Jul 2024 11:09:53 +0100, Clive Arthur
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Pete W
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Has it even been mentioned? I guess there might be a topical insert
shortly.
Apart from possible topical inserts have elections every been
discussed in the run up to election day on TA? I can't think of any.
There was a passing reference, from Kenton, to Jolene having gone out to
vote, to explain her absence,  when Lilian arrived at The Bull.
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station?  Was Jim Lloyd the
Presiding Officer?
I'm sure Jim would have liked to be presiding officer but I rather
fear that his tendency towards didacticism might disqualify him.
But is Ambridge big enough? You be the judge...
This...
<https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1918955/britains-weirdest-polling-stations-cemetery-caravan>
or this...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-67689434
(Ballot box to serve one voter in Perthshire hamlet)
I wonder if they have tried to get that single voter to do a postal vote?
I wonder if he actually did vote?
Which reminds me of Rishi's claim that 130000 voters could determine the
outcome of the election, in which case a) why don't they find those
130000 people and ask them, then the rest of us can have a lie-in and b)
isn't this the best argument for PR ever?

john
Sam Plusnet
2024-07-06 20:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by john ashby
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Nick Odell
On Fri, 5 Jul 2024 11:09:53 +0100, Clive Arthur
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Pete W
Post by john ashby
I can't find the results for Borsetshire on the BBC website. Does anyone
know what happened?
john
Has it even been mentioned? I guess there might be a topical insert
shortly.
Apart from possible topical inserts have elections every been
discussed in the run up to election day on TA? I can't think of any.
There was a passing reference, from Kenton, to Jolene having gone out to
vote, to explain her absence,  when Lilian arrived at The Bull.
Is Ambridge big enough to warrant a polling station?  Was Jim Lloyd the
Presiding Officer?
I'm sure Jim would have liked to be presiding officer but I rather
fear that his tendency towards didacticism might disqualify him.
But is Ambridge big enough? You be the judge...
This...
<https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1918955/britains-weirdest-polling-stations-cemetery-caravan>
or this...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-67689434
(Ballot box to serve one voter in Perthshire hamlet)
I wonder if they have tried to get that single voter to do a postal vote?
I wonder if he actually did vote?
Which reminds me of Rishi's claim that 130000 voters could determine the
outcome of the election, in which case a) why don't they find those
130000 people and ask them, then the rest of us can have a lie-in and b)
isn't this the best argument for PR ever?
Lib Dems (and formerly the Liberals) have been getting the sticky end of
the lollypop for many decades and no-one seemed to take much notice.

Will the fact that other parties have been thus incommoded[1] now bring
the drawbacks of the FPTP system into focus?

[1] I suppose the new government was commoded. If one goes up, the
others go down.
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-06 22:58:05 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by john ashby
Which reminds me of Rishi's claim that 130000 voters could determine
the outcome of the election, in which case a) why don't they find
those 130000 people and ask them, then the rest of us can have a
lie-in and b) isn't this the best argument for PR ever?
Yes, but neither of the main parties are ever _seriously_ going to
consider it, because they're only ever in power because of the existing
system.
Post by Sam Plusnet
Lib Dems (and formerly the Liberals) have been getting the sticky end
of the lollypop for many decades and no-one seemed to take much notice.
Will the fact that other parties have been thus incommoded[1] now bring
the drawbacks of the FPTP system into focus?
[1] I suppose the new government was commoded. If one goes up, the
others go down.
Meanwhile, the country goes down the toilet ... (-:

FPTP would actually be a good name for STV; it most certainly _isn't_
for what we have now: can any advocate of what we have now (assuming
there _are_ any on UMRA!) tell me where this theoretical "post" is?
(What we have now is a sort of locally-legitimised mob rule. Its _only_
advantage, that I can see, is that it's easy to understand. Which,
sadly, will probably preserve it.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

What has happened since 1979, I suspect, is that the spotting of mistakes has
become entirely associated with mean-spiritedness, snobbishness and
judgementalism. But...can be...funny and interesting.
Lynn Truss, RT 2015/2/21-27
v***@gmail.com
2024-07-07 00:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by john ashby
Which reminds me of Rishi's claim that 130000 voters could determine
the outcome of the election, in which case a) why don't they find
those 130000 people and ask them, then the rest of us can have a
lie-in and b) isn't this the best argument for PR ever?
Israel has PR and it leads to some uncomfortable alliances
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Yes, but neither of the main parties are ever _seriously_ going to
consider it, because they're only ever in power because of the existing
system.
Post by Sam Plusnet
Lib Dems (and formerly the Liberals) have been getting the sticky end
of the lollypop for many decades and no-one seemed to take much notice.
Will the fact that other parties have been thus incommoded[1] now bring
the drawbacks of the FPTP system into focus?
[1] I suppose the new government was commoded. If one goes up, the
others go down.
FPTP would actually be a good name for STV; it most certainly _isn't_
for what we have now: can any advocate of what we have now (assuming
there _are_ any on UMRA!) tell me where this theoretical "post" is?
(What we have now is a sort of locally-legitimised mob rule. Its _only_
advantage, that I can see, is that it's easy to understand. Which,
sadly, will probably preserve it.)
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-07 06:21:14 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@4ax.com> at Sun, 7 Jul
2024 01:32:43, ***@gmail.com writes
[]
[]
Post by v***@gmail.com
Post by john ashby
lie-in and b) isn't this the best argument for PR ever?
Israel has PR and it leads to some uncomfortable alliances
[]
No system is perfect; what we have has led to some super-majorities,
such as Boris's one and the present one, which aren't good for the
country, as they give too free a hand.

One of the criticisms of PR is that it _does_ lead to alliances, and not
a "strong" government; some would say that's an advantage. Germany
(including when it was West Germany) has PR, and they (especially in the
'60s through '80s) did OK.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

What good is a smart phone with a dumb user?
Nick Odell
2024-07-07 15:17:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
[]
Post by v***@gmail.com
Post by john ashby
lie-in and b) isn't this the best argument for PR ever?
Israel has PR and it leads to some uncomfortable alliances
[]
No system is perfect; what we have has led to some super-majorities,
such as Boris's one and the present one, which aren't good for the
country, as they give too free a hand.
Interesting that the Conservatives didn't seem unduly bothered by
supermajorities when Boris Johnson gave them one (fnarr, fnarr) at the
last GE
Post by J. P. Gilliver
One of the criticisms of PR is that it _does_ lead to alliances, and not
a "strong" government; some would say that's an advantage. Germany
(including when it was West Germany) has PR, and they (especially in the
'60s through '80s) did OK.
Given that the great British public seem to have learned how to play
the FPTP system and get what they want, is there any point in changing
to some form of PR?

I know that Reform say they got around 100,000,000 votes and only five
seats and that therefore the system is broken but I'd suggest that
people only gave them five billion votes because they were confident
that they would mostly not turn into seats and they could safely
register a protest that way. Change to PR and watch the extremist vote
nosedive, I reckon.

Nick
Kosmo
2024-07-07 15:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
I know that Reform say they got around 100,000,000 votes and only five
seats and that therefore the system is broken but I'd suggest that
people only gave them five billion votes because they were confident
that they would mostly not turn into seats and they could safely
register a protest that way. Change to PR and watch the extremist vote
nosedive, I reckon.
I think it is fair to say that voting in recent years - the referendum
and the recent local and general election votes have been more to with
protest rather than actually choosing the outcome.

I would comment on The Archers but for reason (life) I am a week behind
- and that does not mean I am suffering the runs.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Sam Plusnet
2024-07-07 20:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kosmo
Post by Nick Odell
I know that Reform say they got around 100,000,000 votes and only five
seats and that therefore the system is broken but I'd suggest that
people only gave them five billion votes because they were confident
that they would mostly not turn into seats and they could safely
register a protest that way. Change to PR and watch the extremist vote
nosedive, I reckon.
I think it is fair to say that voting in recent years - the referendum
and the recent local and general election votes have been more to with
protest rather than actually choosing the outcome.
I would comment on The Archers but for reason (life) I am a week behind
- and that does not mean I am suffering the runs.
How about some re-runs? That should bring you up to date.
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-07 16:19:23 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver
No system is perfect; what we have has led to some super-majorities,
such as Boris's one and the present one, which aren't good for the
country, as they give too free a hand.
Interesting that the Conservatives didn't seem unduly bothered by
supermajorities when Boris Johnson gave them one (fnarr, fnarr) at the
last GE
Those who win with one tend not to mention it; I don't hear Labour
complaining this time, for example.
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver
One of the criticisms of PR is that it _does_ lead to alliances, and not
a "strong" government; some would say that's an advantage. Germany
(including when it was West Germany) has PR, and they (especially in the
'60s through '80s) did OK.
Given that the great British public seem to have learned how to play
the FPTP system and get what they want, is there any point in changing
to some form of PR?
Well, as anotherrat has said, a lot of the voting in recent elections
has been protest voting rather than actually choosing a representative.
And those in "safe seats" _cannot_ effectively choose someone they want.
(There would be far fewer "safe seats" under STV.)
Post by Nick Odell
I know that Reform say they got around 100,000,000 votes and only five
seats and that therefore the system is broken but I'd suggest that
people only gave them five billion votes because they were confident
that they would mostly not turn into seats and they could safely
register a protest that way. Change to PR and watch the extremist vote
nosedive, I reckon.
Yes, because people would be voting for who they want, rather than just
to make a (protest) point. Especially with STV.
Post by Nick Odell
Nick
John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I
have one. -Cato the Elder, statesman, soldier, and writer (234-149 BCE)
Kosmo
2024-07-08 09:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
And those in "safe seats" _cannot_ effectively choose someone they want.
(There would be far fewer "safe seats" under STV.)
I thought former PM Truss was in no need of support having a "safe" seat
but the voters certainly got her.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-08 10:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kosmo
Post by J. P. Gilliver
And those in "safe seats" _cannot_ effectively choose someone they
want. (There would be far fewer "safe seats" under STV.)
I thought former PM Truss was in no need of support having a "safe"
seat but the voters certainly got her.
Truss ... support ... IGMC
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The party arrangement, which obliges perfectly sensible people to pretend the
world is simple, turns representatives into drones.
Jeremy Paxman, RT 2019/8/31-9/6
Joe Kerr
2024-07-07 16:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
[]
Post by v***@gmail.com
Post by john ashby
lie-in and b) isn't this the best argument for PR ever?
Israel has PR and it leads to some uncomfortable alliances
[]
No system is perfect; what we have has led to some super-majorities,
such as Boris's one and the present one, which aren't good for the
country, as they give too free a hand.
Interesting that the Conservatives didn't seem unduly bothered by
supermajorities when Boris Johnson gave them one (fnarr, fnarr) at the
last GE
Post by J. P. Gilliver
One of the criticisms of PR is that it _does_ lead to alliances, and not
a "strong" government; some would say that's an advantage. Germany
(including when it was West Germany) has PR, and they (especially in the
'60s through '80s) did OK.
Given that the great British public seem to have learned how to play
the FPTP system and get what they want, is there any point in changing
to some form of PR?
I know that Reform say they got around 100,000,000 votes and only five
seats and that therefore the system is broken but I'd suggest that
people only gave them five billion votes because they were confident
that they would mostly not turn into seats and they could safely
register a protest that way. Change to PR and watch the extremist vote
nosedive, I reckon.
Nick
An interesting idea but a dangerous strategy. If sufficient people
protest they might get something to protest about.
--
Ric
Clive Arthur
2024-07-07 09:48:40 UTC
Permalink
On 06/07/2024 23:58, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

<snip>
Post by J. P. Gilliver
FPTP would actually be a good name for STV; it most certainly _isn't_
for what we have now: can any advocate of what we have now (assuming
there _are_ any on UMRA!) tell me where this theoretical "post" is?
(What we have now is a sort of locally-legitimised mob rule. Its _only_
advantage, that I can see, is that it's easy to understand. Which,
sadly, will probably preserve it.)
This is my proposal, it requires no change to the existing machinery and
while not full PR, does give the voter more control. You have two votes
of equal but opposite weight, one positive [X] and one negative [O].
You can use neither, either or both. A candidate may well end up with a
negative vote.

[I liked the PE cartoon showing a voting slip with a swastika marked for
Reform.]
--
Cheers
Clive
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-07 10:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by J. P. Gilliver
FPTP would actually be a good name for STV; it most certainly
_isn't_ for what we have now: can any advocate of what we have now
(assuming there _are_ any on UMRA!) tell me where this theoretical
"post" is? (What we have now is a sort of locally-legitimised mob
rule. Its _only_ advantage, that I can see, is that it's easy to
understand. Which, sadly, will probably preserve it.)
This is my proposal, it requires no change to the existing machinery
and while not full PR, does give the voter more control. You have two
votes of equal but opposite weight, one positive [X] and one negative
[O]. You can use neither, either or both. A candidate may well end up
with a negative vote.
I rather like it! I still prefer STV, but the above (which, sorry, is
going to be referred to as noughts-and-crosses) might be more
understandable (and thus acceptable) to the masses.

It _does_ require a slight change though - the counting process would be
somewhat more complex. (As does STV, but that can use the existing
process repeatedly; N&C [or X&0] I can't see an _easy_ way to do the
counting.)
Post by Clive Arthur
[I liked the PE cartoon showing a voting slip with a swastika marked
for Reform.]
(Didn't see that one.)

As I've been discussing with my brother, PR (I suspect any variant),
which we're both in favour of, would have led to Reform getting a lot
more seats, which we're not sure about (he definitely doesn't like them;
I _think_ I'd be OK with them getting a proportional number).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
v***@gmail.com
2024-07-07 11:13:32 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 7 Jul 2024 10:48:40 +0100, Clive Arthur
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by J. P. Gilliver
FPTP would actually be a good name for STV; it most certainly _isn't_
for what we have now: can any advocate of what we have now (assuming
there _are_ any on UMRA!) tell me where this theoretical "post" is?
(What we have now is a sort of locally-legitimised mob rule. Its _only_
advantage, that I can see, is that it's easy to understand. Which,
sadly, will probably preserve it.)
This is my proposal, it requires no change to the existing machinery and
while not full PR, does give the voter more control. You have two votes
of equal but opposite weight, one positive [X] and one negative [O].
You can use neither, either or both. A candidate may well end up with a
negative vote.
[I liked the PE cartoon showing a voting slip with a swastika marked for
Reform.]
Ok, so I can't vote X to all the candidates on my list of options? I
suppose that would just mean a spoiled vote? I did actually write
Nigella across the page.
Sam Plusnet
2024-07-07 20:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@gmail.com
On Sun, 7 Jul 2024 10:48:40 +0100, Clive Arthur
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by J. P. Gilliver
FPTP would actually be a good name for STV; it most certainly _isn't_
for what we have now: can any advocate of what we have now (assuming
there _are_ any on UMRA!) tell me where this theoretical "post" is?
(What we have now is a sort of locally-legitimised mob rule. Its _only_
advantage, that I can see, is that it's easy to understand. Which,
sadly, will probably preserve it.)
This is my proposal, it requires no change to the existing machinery and
while not full PR, does give the voter more control. You have two votes
of equal but opposite weight, one positive [X] and one negative [O].
You can use neither, either or both. A candidate may well end up with a
negative vote.
[I liked the PE cartoon showing a voting slip with a swastika marked for
Reform.]
Ok, so I can't vote X to all the candidates on my list of options? I
suppose that would just mean a spoiled vote? I did actually write
Nigella across the page.
Was there a reason for that? I don't think I have ever written Nigella
on anything (other than this post).
v***@gmail.com
2024-07-07 21:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by v***@gmail.com
On Sun, 7 Jul 2024 10:48:40 +0100, Clive Arthur
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by J. P. Gilliver
FPTP would actually be a good name for STV; it most certainly _isn't_
for what we have now: can any advocate of what we have now (assuming
there _are_ any on UMRA!) tell me where this theoretical "post" is?
(What we have now is a sort of locally-legitimised mob rule. Its _only_
advantage, that I can see, is that it's easy to understand. Which,
sadly, will probably preserve it.)
This is my proposal, it requires no change to the existing machinery and
while not full PR, does give the voter more control. You have two votes
of equal but opposite weight, one positive [X] and one negative [O].
You can use neither, either or both. A candidate may well end up with a
negative vote.
[I liked the PE cartoon showing a voting slip with a swastika marked for
Reform.]
Ok, so I can't vote X to all the candidates on my list of options? I
suppose that would just mean a spoiled vote? I did actually write
Nigella across the page.
Was there a reason for that? I don't think I have ever written Nigella
on anything (other than this post).
I like her food programmes and she'd be just as good in government as
some of the recent lot.
Kosmo
2024-07-07 10:59:15 UTC
Permalink
can any advocate of what we have now (assuming there _are_ any on UMRA!)
tell me where this theoretical "post" is?
Wikipedia says:

The term first-past-the-post is a metaphor from horse racing of the
plurality-voted candidate winning such a race

I believe that it should be retained. It typically delivers governments
with strong majorities to enable the winning government to deliver the
promises within their manifesto without let or hindrance and therefore
eliminates wishy washy constant changing of minds.

Of course if a government does not know its own mind (eg Conservatives
since 2010) then you get a complete mess so you resort to a non-binding
referendum which you interpret as binding, a lack of policies to
implement and responding to public over concern (eg Dangerous Dogs Act).

EG - I do not remember the 2010 manifesto containing any need for
austerity - prudence perhaps - but not austerity. And not having a
policy to get elected other than one to cut taxes (and the wrong ones at
that) are a good way not to get elected.

And As we do not want a political fall out in umra I am happy if no one
responds!
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Nick Odell
2024-07-07 15:39:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kosmo
can any advocate of what we have now (assuming there _are_ any on UMRA!)
tell me where this theoretical "post" is?
The term first-past-the-post is a metaphor from horse racing of the
plurality-voted candidate winning such a race
I believe that it should be retained. It typically delivers governments
with strong majorities to enable the winning government to deliver the
promises within their manifesto without let or hindrance and therefore
eliminates wishy washy constant changing of minds.
Of course if a government does not know its own mind (eg Conservatives
since 2010) then you get a complete mess so you resort to a non-binding
referendum which you interpret as binding, a lack of policies to
implement and responding to public over concern (eg Dangerous Dogs Act).
EG - I do not remember the 2010 manifesto containing any need for
austerity - prudence perhaps - but not austerity. And not having a
policy to get elected other than one to cut taxes (and the wrong ones at
that) are a good way not to get elected.
And As we do not want a political fall out in umra I am happy if no one
responds!
I'm in general agreement with most of your points though I might want
to argue over some of the finer detail. But not now!

The 2010 election was interesting because there was no overall
majority and the government became a Con/Lib-Dem coalition.

One of the radio programmes last week - I think it might have been the
political version of Test Match Special[1] that ran through the night
- explained how that happened.

When it became obvious that no party had an overall majority in 2010,
both the Labour and Conservatives courted the Lib-Dems and all three
had to chuck out their manifestos and see what compromises they could
make with each other. In the end, the Lib-Dems sided with the
Conservatives and agreed a new programme that both sides could live
with. They did not go back to the voters with the new programme though
and I can imagine what would have happened if they had. I presume this
is why, when later the Conservatives again found themselves without an
overall majority they entered into a confidence and supply deal with
the Ulster Unionists rather than another poisonous coalition.

Nick
[1]I call it a PTMS because it had the same ingredients: lots of dull
moments with commentators trying to avoid dead air; a regular supply
of vaguely connected guests flowing in and out of the studio and,
instead of cakes, they talked about biscuits - my goodness, weren't
they obsessed with biscuits!
v***@gmail.com
2024-07-07 16:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
When it became obvious that no party had an overall majority in 2010,
both the Labour and Conservatives courted the Lib-Dems and all three
had to chuck out their manifestos and see what compromises they could
make with each other. In the end, the Lib-Dems sided with the
Conservatives and agreed a new programme that both sides could live
with. They did not go back to the voters with the new programme though
and I can imagine what would have happened if they had
I was a young Liberal at the age of 17, following my mother and being
a teller and organising wine and cheese parties. I followed them to
Lib Dems and helped there when I could. Not voted Lib Dem since 2010
and felt 'I agree with Nick' sold them out.
john ashby
2024-07-07 17:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@gmail.com
Post by Nick Odell
When it became obvious that no party had an overall majority in 2010,
both the Labour and Conservatives courted the Lib-Dems and all three
had to chuck out their manifestos and see what compromises they could
make with each other. In the end, the Lib-Dems sided with the
Conservatives and agreed a new programme that both sides could live
with. They did not go back to the voters with the new programme though
and I can imagine what would have happened if they had
I was a young Liberal at the age of 17, following my mother and being
a teller and organising wine and cheese parties. I followed them to
Lib Dems and helped there when I could. Not voted Lib Dem since 2010
and felt 'I agree with Nick' sold them out.
My memory is that although Brown tried to put together a coalition with
Clegg in 2010 the numbers were never there while they were for Cameron.
The problem the LibDems had was that they were out-played in the power
games by the Tories (especially over PR), given poisoned chalice
ministries and apart from a few unforced arrors (e.g. student loans and
fees) they were faced with decisions which could only be wrong. OTOH I
would argue that they did temper the worst excesses of the Tories as
evidenced by what happened when they won an outright majority in 2015.

john
Kosmo
2024-07-08 09:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@gmail.com
Not voted Lib Dem since 2010
and felt 'I agree with Nick' sold them out.
I think the 2010 coalition sealed their fate as they abandoned their
manifesto a little too easily in pursuit of power.
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
J. P. Gilliver
2024-07-07 16:32:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kosmo
can any advocate of what we have now (assuming there _are_ any on
UMRA!) tell me where this theoretical "post" is?
The term first-past-the-post is a metaphor from horse racing of the
plurality-voted candidate winning such a race
Yes, but in a horse (and all other than I can think of) race, there _is_
a post, which has to be passed. There is no such post in - er - FPTP.
(There _would_ be in STV - usually taken to be 50%.)
Post by Kosmo
I believe that it should be retained. It typically delivers
governments with strong majorities to enable the winning government to
deliver the promises within their manifesto without let or hindrance
(I've often wondered what the difference is between those two. Like way
shape or form.)
Post by Kosmo
and therefore eliminates wishy washy constant changing of minds.
But going ahead boldly often makes for bad law; you mention the
dangerous dogs act below. If it has to be considered, it's more likely
to be improved. Of course we have the house of Lords, which on the whole
_does_ serve this function, but it can be guillotined, and is more
likely to be so under a supermajority, IMO.
Post by Kosmo
Of course if a government does not know its own mind (eg Conservatives
since 2010) then you get a complete mess so you resort to a non-binding
referendum which you interpret as binding, a lack of policies to
implement and responding to public over concern (eg Dangerous Dogs Act).
EG - I do not remember the 2010 manifesto containing any need for
austerity - prudence perhaps - but not austerity. And not having a
To be fair, it didn't predict a pandemic and (energy-affecting) war,
either.
Post by Kosmo
policy to get elected other than one to cut taxes (and the wrong ones
at that) are a good way not to get elected.
I had to run that past myself a few times, but worked it out in the end!
Yes, it does _seem_ that neither of the main parties have ever gone into
a scrap claiming they'll _raise_ taxes, other than ones that'll only
affect a minority (envy is always a good seller). The Libs/LibDems
_have_ occasionally done so - we'll raise by a penny and spend it on
education, I seem to remember for one of the scraps.

(IMO we need more ring-fenced taxes, too - the only widespread one being
the TV tax ["national insurance" and the "road fund" being two notorious
ones that are _not_ ring-fenced to what they claim, and the lottery is
similar] - but that's an argument for another day.)
Post by Kosmo
And As we do not want a political fall out in umra I am happy if no one
responds!
Well, one about the voting _method_ is arguably different from one about
other aspects of politics. But I'd prefer a _discussion_ to a fall-out
(argument).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I
have one. -Cato the Elder, statesman, soldier, and writer (234-149 BCE)
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