Discussion:
Ask EU: Adverbs.
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BrritSki
2020-05-06 13:53:41 UTC
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Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ? I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
John Finlay
2020-05-06 14:31:48 UTC
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Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ?  I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
It's an attributive noun - joined directly to a noun to describe it.
Mike
2020-05-06 15:10:43 UTC
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Post by John Finlay
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ?  I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
It's an attributive noun - joined directly to a noun to describe it.
‘Well Dressed’
--
Toodle Pip
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2020-05-06 15:46:34 UTC
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Post by Mike
Post by John Finlay
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ?  I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
It's an attributive noun - joined directly to a noun to describe it.
I'd say it's purely a simple adjective, the only slightly unusual thing
about it being the capital letter as it's from a "proper" root. (As in
"proper noun"; I've not heard "proper" [in this sense] ever added to
anything other than "noun", but I don't see why you can't say "it's a
'proper adjective'".)

Here, dressing is indeed just a noun.
Post by Mike
‘Well Dressed’
Isn't well-dressing (note the hyphen to remove any ambiguity!) something
they do in some counties? (Possibly even Borsetshire? Though I don't
remember anyone ever mentioning a well in Ambridge. Though before mains
water, the farms and village must have got their water from _somewhere_
- unless they all used the Am.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If vegetarians eat vegetables,..beware of humanitarians!
Rosemary Miskin
2020-05-06 17:00:26 UTC
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JPG asked
Isn't well-dressing (note the hyphen to remove any ambiguity!) something 
they do in some counties? (
Derbyshire for one. Haven't been to see them for some years, but it used
to make a nice outing! I forget which festival it celebrated, though.
Perhaps mayday.

Rosemary
Tony Smith Gloucestershire
2020-05-06 19:14:05 UTC
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Post by Rosemary Miskin
JPG asked
Isn't well-dressing (note the hyphen to remove any ambiguity!) something 
they do in some counties? (
Derbyshire for one.
Also at Bisley in Gloucestershire, on Ascension Day. I have never been to see it.
steveski
2020-05-06 23:29:03 UTC
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Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Post by Rosemary Miskin
JPG asked
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Isn't well-dressing (note the hyphen to remove any ambiguity!)
something they do in some counties? (
Derbyshire for one.
Also at Bisley in Gloucestershire, on Ascension Day. I have never been to see it.
Did they shoot the well dressed?
--
Steveski
Chris McMillan
2020-05-07 18:17:29 UTC
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Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Post by Rosemary Miskin
JPG asked
Isn't well-dressing (note the hyphen to remove any ambiguity!) something 
they do in some counties? (
Derbyshire for one.
Also at Bisley in Gloucestershire, on Ascension Day. I have never been to see it.
So they won’t next Thurs then.

Sincerely Chris
Sid Nuncius
2020-05-06 18:44:03 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Isn't well-dressing (note the hyphen to remove any ambiguity!) something
they do in some counties? (Possibly even Borsetshire? Though I don't
remember anyone ever mentioning a well in Ambridge. Though before mains
water, the farms and village must have got their water from _somewhere_
- unless they all used the Am.)
I've only ever heard of it being practised in Derbyshire. BIMBAM.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Dumrat
2020-05-06 18:20:33 UTC
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Post by John Finlay
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in French dressing"
and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ?  I don;t think so...
EMNTK
It's an attributive noun - joined directly to a noun to describe it.
Thank you, John, I didn't know that. Sounds correct to me, otherwise I'd have called it an
adjective, or thought that "French dressing" was a two word noun. IYSWIM.
--
Salaam Alaykum,
Anne, Exceptionally Traditionally-built Dumrat
Anne B
2020-05-06 19:26:52 UTC
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Post by Dumrat
Post by John Finlay
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ?  I
don;t think so...
EMNTK
It's an attributive noun - joined directly to a noun to describe it.
Thank you, John, I didn't know that. Sounds correct to me, otherwise I'd
have called it an adjective, or thought that "French dressing" was a two
word noun. IYSWIM.
It is an adjective. 'French' is not a noun so it cannot be an
'attributive noun' which is basically a noun being used as an adjective.

Anne B
Dumrat
2020-05-09 09:24:04 UTC
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Post by Dumrat
Post by John Finlay
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in French dressing"
and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ?  I don;t think so...
EMNTK
It's an attributive noun - joined directly to a noun to describe it.
Thank you, John, I didn't know that. Sounds correct to me, otherwise I'd have called it
an adjective, or thought that "French dressing" was a two word noun. IYSWIM.
It is an adjective. 'French' is not a noun so it cannot be an 'attributive noun' which is
basically a noun being used as an adjective.
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who sound more
authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an 'attributive noun' before
John mentioned it, so thought I must be definitely be wrong about 'French' being an
adjective there, though why I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary
school could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example of an
'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how that would work?
--
Salaam Alaykum,
Anne, Exceptionally Traditionally-built Dumrat
Sid Nuncius
2020-05-09 09:36:30 UTC
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Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who
sound more authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an
'attributive noun' before John mentioned it, so thought I must be
definitely be wrong about 'French' being an adjective there, though why
I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary school
could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example
of an 'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how
that would work?
In "marriage licence," marriage is an attributive noun. (I had to look
this up, by the way!) Similarly, I can think of phrases like wedding
planner or gun control.

"French" isn't a noun, however it is used - it's an adjective.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Dumrat
2020-05-09 09:45:50 UTC
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Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who sound more
authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an 'attributive noun' before
John mentioned it, so thought I must be definitely be wrong about 'French' being an
adjective there, though why I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary
school could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example of an
'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how that would work?
In "marriage licence," marriage is an attributive noun.  (I had to look this up, by the
way!)  Similarly, I can think of phrases like wedding planner or gun control.
"French" isn't a noun, however it is used - it's an adjective.
Thanks, Sid. So where you put the second noun in front of the first, instead of using
first noun
+ 'for' + second noun, it's an attributive noun. Got it!
--
Salaam Alaykum,
Anne, Exceptionally Traditionally-built Dumrat
Penny
2020-05-09 10:37:22 UTC
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On Sat, 9 May 2020 10:36:30 +0100, Sid Nuncius
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who
sound more authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an
'attributive noun' before John mentioned it, so thought I must be
definitely be wrong about 'French' being an adjective there, though why
I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary school
could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example
of an 'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how
that would work?
In "marriage licence," marriage is an attributive noun. (I had to look
this up, by the way!) Similarly, I can think of phrases like wedding
planner or gun control.
"French" isn't a noun, however it is used - it's an adjective.
I'm sure I used it as a noun when I said, "I've got French next lesson" but
I suppose I was contracting 'French lesson'...

Glad I'm not alone in being unaware of attributive nouns (or fronted
adverbials).
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Vicky Ayech
2020-05-09 10:42:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by Penny
On Sat, 9 May 2020 10:36:30 +0100, Sid Nuncius
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who
sound more authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an
'attributive noun' before John mentioned it, so thought I must be
definitely be wrong about 'French' being an adjective there, though why
I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary school
could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example
of an 'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how
that would work?
In "marriage licence," marriage is an attributive noun. (I had to look
this up, by the way!) Similarly, I can think of phrases like wedding
planner or gun control.
"French" isn't a noun, however it is used - it's an adjective.
I'm sure I used it as a noun when I said, "I've got French next lesson" but
I suppose I was contracting 'French lesson'...
I thought it could stand alone as a noun as well as being an
adjective. Like mathematics or English. or pottery.
Post by Penny
Glad I'm not alone in being unaware of attributive nouns (or fronted
adverbials).
Kate B
2020-05-09 11:27:21 UTC
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Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by Penny
On Sat, 9 May 2020 10:36:30 +0100, Sid Nuncius
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who
sound more authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an
'attributive noun' before John mentioned it, so thought I must be
definitely be wrong about 'French' being an adjective there, though why
I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary school
could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example
of an 'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how
that would work?
In "marriage licence," marriage is an attributive noun. (I had to look
this up, by the way!) Similarly, I can think of phrases like wedding
planner or gun control.
"French" isn't a noun, however it is used - it's an adjective.
I'm sure I used it as a noun when I said, "I've got French next lesson" but
I suppose I was contracting 'French lesson'...
I thought it could stand alone as a noun as well as being an
adjective. Like mathematics or English. or pottery.
Post by Penny
Glad I'm not alone in being unaware of attributive nouns (or fronted
adverbials).
I think French and English, etc, are still adjectives even when used
alone, as the noun 'language' (or 'literature' etc) is always understood.

And I got top marks for English Lang. and Lit at all levels, plus an
upper second in English at Oxford and I *never* *ever* came across
fronted adverbials.

In fact it makes me really cross. Just make the little blighters read
proper English till they understand how it works.
--
Kate B
London
Jim Easterbrook
2020-05-09 11:40:58 UTC
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Post by Kate B
And I got top marks for English Lang. and Lit at all levels, plus an
upper second in English at Oxford and I *never* *ever* came across
fronted adverbials.
I managed never to hear of them without all that book learnin'.
Post by Kate B
In fact it makes me really cross. Just make the little blighters read
proper English till they understand how it works.
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start? We seem
to have more than one generation of people who can write "could of done"
without batting an eyelid.
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
steve hague
2020-05-09 12:44:40 UTC
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Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start? We seem
to have more than one generation of people who can write "could of done"
without batting an eyelid.
That's as bad as a misplaced apostrophe, and in my opinion a valid
reason for bringing back the death penalty.
Steve
Joe Kerr
2020-05-09 12:51:22 UTC
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Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start? We seem
to have more than one generation of people who can write "could of done"
without batting an eyelid.
I first noticed the tendency to replace certain words with a vaguely
similar sounding substitute with a different meaning in the mid 90's in
the USoA. It was accompanied by swapping words for their opposite,
rendering sentences meaningless. Most notable "I could care less" when
they mean that they couldn't.
--
Ric
Vicky Ayech
2020-05-09 16:22:10 UTC
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Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start? We seem
to have more than one generation of people who can write "could of done"
without batting an eyelid.
I first noticed the tendency to replace certain words with a vaguely
similar sounding substitute with a different meaning in the mid 90's in
the USoA. It was accompanied by swapping words for their opposite,
rendering sentences meaningless. Most notable "I could care less" when
they mean that they couldn't.
I wonder if this began as 'could I care less?' And so is a question
as in'I could care less?'
Jenny M Benson
2020-05-09 16:32:13 UTC
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Post by Joe Kerr
I first noticed the tendency to replace certain words with a vaguely
similar sounding substitute with a different meaning in the mid 90's in
the USoA. It was accompanied by swapping words for their opposite,
rendering sentences meaningless. Most notable "I could care less" when
they mean that they couldn't.
And a moot point is another one the Usians have reversed.
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
Penny
2020-05-09 13:09:54 UTC
Reply
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On 9 May 2020 11:40:58 GMT, Jim Easterbrook <***@jim-easterbrook.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start?
We learnt to parse at my grammar school (mid - late '60s).
My children are a bit vague about parts of speech (90s).
Post by Jim Easterbrook
We seem
to have more than one generation of people who can write "could of done"
without batting an eyelid.
That's a speech and hearing issue innit?
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Jim Easterbrook
2020-05-09 14:07:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start?
We learnt to parse at my grammar school (mid - late '60s).
My children are a bit vague about parts of speech (90s).
Post by Jim Easterbrook
We seem to have more than one generation of people who can write "could
of done"
without batting an eyelid.
That's a speech and hearing issue innit?
Maybe, the first time you write it. When you read it back and try and
make sense of it you'd realise your error.
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
Jenny M Benson
2020-05-09 16:36:35 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jim Easterbrook
Post by Penny
Post by Jim Easterbrook
We seem to have more than one generation of people who can write "could
of done"
without batting an eyelid.
That's a speech and hearing issue innit?
Maybe, the first time you write it. When you read it back and try and
make sense of it you'd realise your error.
Dave Gorman (I'm a fan) did a very funny piece about this sort of thing
- or very similar, where common expressions are used with the wrong
word, which I saw for the second time when Dave (the channel) repeated
it quite recently.

Needless to say, I can't think of any of the examples he showed - all
genuine gleanings from the 'net.
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
Kate B
2020-05-09 14:23:48 UTC
Reply
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Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start?
We learnt to parse at my grammar school (mid - late '60s).
My children are a bit vague about parts of speech (90s).
I was at grammar school in the mid to late '60s too. We did Latin
grammar and occasionally this was brought into play in French and
English, but mostly relating to verbs. I don't think we ever did any
formal parsing at all in anything but Latin. I don't remember it at
primary school either.
--
Kate B
London
Penny
2020-05-09 18:39:53 UTC
Reply
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On Sat, 9 May 2020 15:23:48 +0100, Kate B <***@nospam.demon.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Kate B
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start?
We learnt to parse at my grammar school (mid - late '60s).
My children are a bit vague about parts of speech (90s).
I was at grammar school in the mid to late '60s too. We did Latin
grammar and occasionally this was brought into play in French and
English, but mostly relating to verbs. I don't think we ever did any
formal parsing at all in anything but Latin. I don't remember it at
primary school either.
I'm pretty sure I learnt a verb was a doing word, an adjective a describing
word and a noun a thing at primary school. I'm pretty sure my children (and
grandchildren*) were taught that too.

*gd#1 likes to play school with her toys, I've seen a photo of her white
board.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Paul Herber
2020-05-09 19:28:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Kate B
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start?
We learnt to parse at my grammar school (mid - late '60s).
My children are a bit vague about parts of speech (90s).
I was at grammar school in the mid to late '60s too. We did Latin
grammar and occasionally this was brought into play in French and
English, but mostly relating to verbs. I don't think we ever did any
formal parsing at all in anything but Latin. I don't remember it at
primary school either.
I'm pretty sure I learnt a verb was a doing word, an adjective a describing
word and a noun a thing at primary school. I'm pretty sure my children (and
grandchildren*) were taught that too.
Yes, but what about the woody words?
--
Regards, Paul Herber
https://www.paulherber.co.uk/
steveski
2020-05-09 21:16:24 UTC
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Post by Paul Herber
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Kate B
Post by Penny
On 9 May 2020 11:40:58 GMT, Jim Easterbrook
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start?
We learnt to parse at my grammar school (mid - late '60s).
My children are a bit vague about parts of speech (90s).
I was at grammar school in the mid to late '60s too. We did Latin
grammar and occasionally this was brought into play in French and
English, but mostly relating to verbs. I don't think we ever did any
formal parsing at all in anything but Latin. I don't remember it at
primary school either.
I'm pretty sure I learnt a verb was a doing word, an adjective a
describing word and a noun a thing at primary school. I'm pretty sure my
children (and grandchildren*) were taught that too.
Yes, but what about the woody words?
Caribou!
--
Steveski
Kate B
2020-05-09 20:11:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Kate B
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start?
We learnt to parse at my grammar school (mid - late '60s).
My children are a bit vague about parts of speech (90s).
I was at grammar school in the mid to late '60s too. We did Latin
grammar and occasionally this was brought into play in French and
English, but mostly relating to verbs. I don't think we ever did any
formal parsing at all in anything but Latin. I don't remember it at
primary school either.
I'm pretty sure I learnt a verb was a doing word, an adjective a describing
word and a noun a thing at primary school. I'm pretty sure my children (and
grandchildren*) were taught that too.
*gd#1 likes to play school with her toys, I've seen a photo of her white
board.
Oh I loved playing school, though it was a blackboard in those days. I
was a tyrannical schoolmistress to my long-suffering siblings. And we
did do 'verb=doing word' etc, but never got further than that. I don't
even recall being taught subject and object until Latin lessons.
--
Kate B
London
Jenny M Benson
2020-05-10 08:52:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by Kate B
Oh I loved playing school, though it was a blackboard in those days. I
was a tyrannical schoolmistress to my long-suffering siblings. And we
did do 'verb=doing word' etc, but never got further than that. I don't
even recall being taught subject and object until Latin lessons.
I remember trying to teach logarithms to my 3-years-younger sister!

My daughter was quite tyrannical with her toys. Once heard to say
"Teddy! You drive me up the wall!" (She was 3 at the time.)
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
Mike
2020-05-10 08:57:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Kate B
Oh I loved playing school, though it was a blackboard in those days. I
was a tyrannical schoolmistress to my long-suffering siblings. And we
did do 'verb=doing word' etc, but never got further than that. I don't
even recall being taught subject and object until Latin lessons.
I remember trying to teach logarithms to my 3-years-younger sister!
My daughter was quite tyrannical with her toys. Once heard to say
"Teddy! You drive me up the wall!" (She was 3 at the time.)
Was he being unbearable perhaps?
--
Toodle Pip
Nick Odell
2020-05-10 13:25:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by Penny
I'm pretty sure I learnt a verb was a doing word, an adjective a describing
word and a noun a thing at primary school. I'm pretty sure my children (and
grandchildren*) were taught that too.
That is pretty much what I learnt too(1) and it was enough to get me
by for quite a few years. They seem to ask TKOT(2) to be familiar with
parts of speech that I have never even heard of.

Nick
(1)Although nouns could be anywhere in the world and beyond and not
just at primary school
(2)The Kids Of Today - I just made that up
Vicky Ayech
2020-05-10 16:22:28 UTC
Reply
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On Sun, 10 May 2020 10:25:01 -0300, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Penny
I'm pretty sure I learnt a verb was a doing word, an adjective a describing
word and a noun a thing at primary school. I'm pretty sure my children (and
grandchildren*) were taught that too.
That is pretty much what I learnt too(1) and it was enough to get me
by for quite a few years. They seem to ask TKOT(2) to be familiar with
parts of speech that I have never even heard of.
Nick
(1)Although nouns could be anywhere in the world and beyond and not
just at primary school
(2)The Kids Of Today - I just made that up
We had main clauses and subordinate ones too. And noun clauses?
Joe Kerr
2020-05-10 21:12:03 UTC
Reply
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Post by Vicky Ayech
On Sun, 10 May 2020 10:25:01 -0300, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Penny
I'm pretty sure I learnt a verb was a doing word, an adjective a describing
word and a noun a thing at primary school. I'm pretty sure my children (and
grandchildren*) were taught that too.
That is pretty much what I learnt too(1) and it was enough to get me
by for quite a few years. They seem to ask TKOT(2) to be familiar with
parts of speech that I have never even heard of.
Nick
(1)Although nouns could be anywhere in the world and beyond and not
just at primary school
(2)The Kids Of Today - I just made that up
We had main clauses and subordinate ones too. And noun clauses?
How about Santa Clauses?
--
Ric
Mike
2020-05-11 07:51:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Vicky Ayech
On Sun, 10 May 2020 10:25:01 -0300, Nick Odell
Post by Nick Odell
Post by Penny
I'm pretty sure I learnt a verb was a doing word, an adjective a describing
word and a noun a thing at primary school. I'm pretty sure my children (and
grandchildren*) were taught that too.
That is pretty much what I learnt too(1) and it was enough to get me
by for quite a few years. They seem to ask TKOT(2) to be familiar with
parts of speech that I have never even heard of.
Nick
(1)Although nouns could be anywhere in the world and beyond and not
just at primary school
(2)The Kids Of Today - I just made that up
We had main clauses and subordinate ones too. And noun clauses?
How about Santa Clauses?
Now look ‘ere Ric, I resisted the very strong urge to write that! Glad you
didn’t though, just one more proof that Umrats are all family!
--
Toodle Pip
Joe Kerr
2020-05-11 23:35:45 UTC
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Post by Mike
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Vicky Ayech
We had main clauses and subordinate ones too. And noun clauses?
How about Santa Clauses?
Now look ‘ere Ric, I resisted the very strong urge to write that! Glad you
didn’t though, just one more proof that Umrats are all family!
I'm not sure I want to be associated with your urges. I'm happy to have
fulfilled your desires.
--
Ric
Mike
2020-05-12 07:38:27 UTC
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Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Mike
Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Vicky Ayech
We had main clauses and subordinate ones too. And noun clauses?
How about Santa Clauses?
Now look ‘ere Ric, I resisted the very strong urge to write that! Glad you
didn’t though, just one more proof that Umrats are all family!
I'm not sure I want to be associated with your urges. I'm happy to have
fulfilled your desires.
Urges ....... are extra Luv.
--
Toodle Pip
Sid Nuncius
2020-05-11 17:32:50 UTC
Reply
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Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Vicky Ayech
We had main clauses and subordinate ones too. And noun clauses?
How about Santa Clauses?
Hahaha - you can't-a fool me! There ain't no sanity clause.[1]


[1]The first time I saw A Night At The Opera, when I was probably about
nine or so, I thought that was the funniest joke I'd ever heard. The
whole contract scene is here if umrats would like to revisit it. It
still stands up pretty well, IMO.

--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Joe Kerr
2020-05-11 23:35:49 UTC
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Post by Joe Kerr
Post by Vicky Ayech
We had main clauses and subordinate ones too. And noun clauses?
How about Santa Clauses?
Hahaha - you can't-a fool me!  There ain't no sanity clause.[1]
[1]The first time I saw A Night At The Opera, when I was probably about
nine or so, I thought that was the funniest joke I'd ever heard.  The
whole contract scene is here if umrats would like to revisit it.  It
still stands up pretty well, IMO.
http://youtu.be/G_Sy6oiJbEk
I would have been a couple of years older than that and it has stuck in
my mind ever since. It's what I was thinking of.
--
Ric
Vicky Ayech
2020-05-09 16:25:24 UTC
Reply
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Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Jim Easterbrook
How long ago did this excessive teaching of formal grammar start?
We learnt to parse at my grammar school (mid - late '60s).
We did too, rather earlier. Early 60s.
Post by Penny
My children are a bit vague about parts of speech (90s).
I think learning Latin helps and I wish I had been able to. Second
daughter chose Latin as her obligatory GCSE foreign language because
she didn't want to speak one and the course was stuff about ancient
Rome and you had to translate from Latin but not speak. Ironically she
learned Spanish as a grown-up and travelled for 6 months in S America,
happy to use it there. I think the Latin helped though.
Post by Penny
Post by Jim Easterbrook
We seem
to have more than one generation of people who can write "could of done"
without batting an eyelid.
That's a speech and hearing issue innit?
BrritSki
2020-05-09 12:24:58 UTC
Reply
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Post by Kate B
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by Penny
On Sat, 9 May 2020 10:36:30 +0100, Sid Nuncius
Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who
sound more authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an
'attributive noun' before John mentioned it, so thought I must be
definitely be wrong about 'French' being an adjective there, though why
I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary school
could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example
of an 'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how
that would work?
In "marriage licence," marriage is an attributive noun.  (I had to look
this up, by the way!)  Similarly, I can think of phrases like wedding
planner or gun control.
"French" isn't a noun, however it is used - it's an adjective.
I'm sure I used it as a noun when I said, "I've got French next lesson" but
I suppose I was contracting 'French lesson'...
I thought it could stand alone as a noun as well as being an
adjective. Like mathematics or English. or pottery.
Post by Penny
Glad I'm not alone in being unaware of attributive nouns (or fronted
adverbials).
I think French and English, etc, are still adjectives even when used
alone, as the noun 'language' (or 'literature' etc) is always understood.
And I got top marks for English Lang. and Lit at all levels, plus an
upper second in English at Oxford and I *never* *ever* came across
fronted adverbials.
In fact it makes me really cross. Just make the little blighters read
proper English till they understand how it works.
<LW>
Penny
2020-05-09 13:06:30 UTC
Reply
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On Sat, 9 May 2020 12:27:21 +0100, Kate B <***@nospam.demon.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by Kate B
In fact it makes me really cross. Just make the little blighters read
proper English till they understand how it works.
<Enthusiastic wave>
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Mike
2020-05-09 13:23:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Vicky Ayech
Post by Penny
On Sat, 9 May 2020 10:36:30 +0100, Sid Nuncius
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who
sound more authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an
'attributive noun' before John mentioned it, so thought I must be
definitely be wrong about 'French' being an adjective there, though why
I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary school
could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example
of an 'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how
that would work?
In "marriage licence," marriage is an attributive noun. (I had to look
this up, by the way!) Similarly, I can think of phrases like wedding
planner or gun control.
"French" isn't a noun, however it is used - it's an adjective.
I'm sure I used it as a noun when I said, "I've got French next lesson" but
I suppose I was contracting 'French lesson'...
I thought it could stand alone as a noun as well as being an
adjective. Like mathematics or English. or pottery.
Post by Penny
Glad I'm not alone in being unaware of attributive nouns (or fronted
adverbials).
Handy word is French, you can even put letters after it.
--
Toodle Pip
Penny
2020-05-09 10:39:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 May 2020 10:36:30 +0100, Sid Nuncius
Post by Sid Nuncius
In "marriage licence," marriage is an attributive noun. (I had to look
this up, by the way!) Similarly, I can think of phrases like wedding
planner or gun control.
Forgot to say, the spelling and grammar checker I'm currently trialling
would have stuck a hyphen between all those pairs.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
krw
2020-05-09 12:39:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who
sound more authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of
an 'attributive noun' before John mentioned it, so thought I must be
definitely be wrong about 'French' being an adjective there, though
why I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary
school could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an
example of an 'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head
round how that would work?
In "marriage licence," marriage is an attributive noun.  (I had to look
this up, by the way!)  Similarly, I can think of phrases like wedding
planner or gun control.
"French" isn't a noun, however it is used - it's an adjective.
Would it be better to say / write marriage-licence, wedding-planner or
the non-existent American-gun-control?

If not why not?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Peter Percival
2020-05-09 12:57:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
the non-existent American-gun-control?
What is it? The control of American guns, or the controlling of guns in
an American style? I only know you mean the latter since you say it's
non-existent.
Post by krw
If not why not?
krw
2020-05-09 22:17:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
the non-existent American-gun-control?
What is it?  The control of American guns, or the controlling of guns in
an American style?  I only know you mean the latter since you say it's
non-existent.
Post by krw
If not why not?
Hmmm. How about gun-control American-style?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
Jenny M Benson
2020-05-09 09:39:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who
sound more authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an
'attributive noun' before John mentioned it, so thought I must be
definitely be wrong about 'French' being an adjective there, though why
I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary school
could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example
of an 'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how
that would work?
I hadn't heard of an attributive noun either. Another example of what
might be one is "country clothing", perhaps.
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
Tony Smith Gloucestershire
2020-05-09 09:45:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Cat flap
John Ashby
2020-05-09 09:49:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
Flat cap

A limit on how many apartments may be built.

john
Mike
2020-05-09 13:20:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
--
Toodle Pip
krw
2020-05-09 22:18:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
What is a calf tap?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics
John Ashby
2020-05-10 04:15:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Mike
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
What is a calf tap?
A mis-aimed reflex test.

john
Penny
2020-05-10 08:16:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 May 2020 05:15:19 +0100, John Ashby <***@yahoo.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by John Ashby
Post by krw
Post by Mike
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
What is a calf tap?
A mis-aimed reflex test.
:)
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
Mike
2020-05-10 08:50:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by John Ashby
Post by krw
Post by Mike
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
What is a calf tap?
A mis-aimed reflex test.
:)
Yes, fat clap!
--
Toodle Pip
Mike
2020-05-10 07:18:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Mike
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
What is a calf tap?
A fat clap maybe?
--
Toodle Pip
Vicky Ayech
2020-05-10 07:42:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Mike
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
What is a calf tap?
Some device like the one used to get maple syrup from trees? They use
it to collect calf's foot jelly.
Sam Plusnet
2020-05-10 19:30:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Mike
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
What is a calf tap?
Inside or outside the penalty box?
Could just be a free kick.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Percival
2020-05-10 19:37:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Mike
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
What is a calf tap?
A cure for water on the knee.
Sid Nuncius
2020-05-11 17:34:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by krw
Post by Mike
Post by Tony Smith Gloucestershire
Cat flap
But not a flat cap?
What is a calf tap?
A calf tap's extra, love.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Dumrat
2020-05-09 09:47:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who sound more
authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an 'attributive noun' before
John mentioned it, so thought I must be definitely be wrong about 'French' being an
adjective there, though why I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary
school could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example of an
'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how that would work?
I hadn't heard of an attributive noun either. Another example of what might be one is
"country clothing", perhaps.
Thanks, Jenny, that confirms my theory: it could be "clothing for (the) country", then.
--
Salaam Alaykum,
Anne, Exceptionally Traditionally-built Dumrat
Vicky Ayech
2020-05-09 10:06:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 May 2020 10:39:07 +0100, Jenny M Benson
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by Dumrat
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who
sound more authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an
'attributive noun' before John mentioned it, so thought I must be
definitely be wrong about 'French' being an adjective there, though why
I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary school
could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example
of an 'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how
that would work?
I hadn't heard of an attributive noun either. Another example of what
might be one is "country clothing", perhaps.
I hadn't heard of them either but can see how this and Sid's examples
are.
Vicky Ayech
2020-05-09 10:05:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dumrat
Post by Dumrat
Post by John Finlay
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in French dressing"
and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ?  I don;t think so...
EMNTK
It's an attributive noun - joined directly to a noun to describe it.
Thank you, John, I didn't know that. Sounds correct to me, otherwise I'd have called it
an adjective, or thought that "French dressing" was a two word noun. IYSWIM.
It is an adjective. 'French' is not a noun so it cannot be an 'attributive noun' which is
basically a noun being used as an adjective.
My instinct to disbelieve my own first instinct and believe others who sound more
authoritative than I do is worrying me. I'd never heard of an 'attributive noun' before
John mentioned it, so thought I must be definitely be wrong about 'French' being an
adjective there, though why I thought the nuns' instillation in me of grammar at primary
school could be faulted, I don't know! Could someone kindly give me an example of an
'attributive noun', please, as I can't quite get my head round how that would work?
I think it's an adjective. Does the adjective need a capital letter?
Nick Odell
2020-05-06 18:51:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 6 May 2020 14:53:41 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ? I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
Might agd have mistaken dressing for a gerund?

Nick
Jim Easterbrook
2020-05-06 16:07:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ? I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
Might agd have mistaken dressing for a gerund?
I only know of gerunds because of Molesworth.
https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Gerund&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop
--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0
BrritSki
2020-05-06 17:06:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 6 May 2020 14:53:41 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ? I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
Might agd have mistaken dressing for a gerund?
This is not her mistake, this is in the material handed out, where the
different parts of speech in that sentence are in different colours:
verb pronoun adjective adverb conjunction preposition.
Jenny M Benson
2020-05-06 18:40:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
This is not her mistake, this is in the material handed out, where the
verb pronoun adjective adverb conjunction preposition.
Heavens! I'm impressed. We did that "in my day" but I thought grammar
was a thing of the past. I recently listened to a Headmistress talking
about educational podcasts and her grasp of English grammar was appalling.
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
BrritSki
2020-05-06 20:02:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
This is not her mistake, this is in the material handed out, where the
verb pronoun adjective adverb conjunction preposition.
Heavens!  I'm impressed.  We did that "in my day" but I thought grammar
was a thing of the past.  I recently listened to a Headmistress talking
about educational podcasts and her grasp of English grammar was appalling.
I think it is part of the national curriculum now generally, but the
agc's school has been very impressive during the lockdown, providing
lots of resources via Class Dojo and doing lots of remote teaching and
support. Poor old norty dorter though is doing this while also looking
after her own 3 from 4-8 years old :/

BrratSki sounds similarly exhausted as both he and his wife are wfh
while also home-schooling their 3. He often works from home anyway, but
she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be interesting
(FSVO).

We have offered to help today by taking them for walks outside in the
nice weather but they have declined so far...
BrritSki
2020-05-07 07:39:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[]
but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
Sam Plusnet
2020-05-07 21:29:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
[]
  but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2020-05-08 02:19:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
[]
  but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
Are you blaming BrritSki's mother or your own, though? (Or was that
ambiguity the point)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I don't like activity holidays. I like /inactivity/ holidays.
- Miriam Margolyes, RT 2017/4/15-21
Sid Nuncius
2020-05-08 04:55:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
  but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
No, *I* blame my mother.
--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)
Mike
2020-05-08 07:31:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
  but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
No, *I* blame my mother.
Was your father not to blame too?
--
Toodle Pip
Sam Plusnet
2020-05-08 21:05:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
  but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
No, *I* blame my mother.
Was your father not to blame too?
No, but ask him about Lloyd George.
--
Sam Plusnet
Mike
2020-05-09 07:30:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Mike
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
  but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
No, *I* blame my mother.
Was your father not to blame too?
No, but ask him about Lloyd George.
Or even George Lloyd.
--
Toodle Pip
Peter Percival
2020-05-09 08:04:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Mike
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
   but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
No, *I* blame my mother.
Was your father not to blame too?
No, but ask him about Lloyd George.
Lloyd George knew my mother.
BrritSki
2020-05-08 08:16:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
  but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
No, *I* blame my mother.
I AM your mother !
Jenny M Benson
2020-05-08 09:18:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
  but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
No, *I* blame my mother.
I AM your mother !
I am Spartacus's mother!
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK
BrritSki
2020-05-08 09:24:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jenny M Benson
Post by BrritSki
Post by Sid Nuncius
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by BrritSki
  but she is doing psychology consultations remotely which must be
interesting (FSVO).
So how do you feel about <buffering>
I blame my mother...
So do I.
No, *I* blame my mother.
I AM your mother !
I am Spartacus's mother!
And I'm *very* cross, being kept hanging about like this...
Penny
2020-05-06 20:02:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 6 May 2020 18:06:14 +0100, BrritSki <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 6 May 2020 14:53:41 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ? I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
Might agd have mistaken dressing for a gerund?
This is not her mistake, this is in the material handed out, where the
verb pronoun adjective adverb conjunction preposition.
But there is no adverb in that sentence.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959
BrritSki
2020-05-07 07:39:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...
Post by BrritSki
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 6 May 2020 14:53:41 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ? I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
Might agd have mistaken dressing for a gerund?
This is not her mistake, this is in the material handed out, where the
verb pronoun adjective adverb conjunction preposition.
But there is no adverb in that sentence.
No conjunction neiver.
Nick Odell
2020-05-07 02:22:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 6 May 2020 18:06:14 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Post by Nick Odell
On Wed, 6 May 2020 14:53:41 +0100, BrritSki
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ? I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
Might agd have mistaken dressing for a gerund?
This is not her mistake, this is in the material handed out, where the
verb pronoun adjective adverb conjunction preposition.
My apols to agd: I parsed the original incorrectly. Probably not a
clever thing to do when the discussion is about parts of speech.

Nick
Anne B
2020-05-06 19:24:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ?  I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
No. It is an adjective, modifying the noun 'dressing'.

Anne B
Sam Plusnet
2020-05-06 23:49:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BrritSki
Lesson for agd has "I drenched the crunchy lettuce in my lunchbox in
French dressing" and claims that French is an adverb. Is it ?  I don;t
think so...
EMNTK
_Do_ post this to alt.usage.english

It is guaranteed to provoke cutlasses at dawn.

(It's an interesting place & worth a visit in any case)
--
Sam Plusnet
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