Breadmakers

[Jane Vernon]

Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly difficult
to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket delivery in
the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am considering
investing in a breadmaker.

"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if so,
do you have any personal recommendations? If I'm getting one, would
like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well with
gluten-free recipes. Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to make
bread any more.

TIA

[nick]

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly difficult
to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket delivery in
the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am considering
investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if so,
do you have any personal recommendations? If I'm getting one, would
like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well with
gluten-free recipes. Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to make
bread any more.

Before you invest in an expensive breadmaking machine[1] have you
considered either sourdough or sourfaux? There's no effort and hardly
any human interaction with either and both can probably be made with
what you already have in your kitchen.

I have never got around to working out how to make and keep alive a masa
madre so it's sourfaux for me. When my son was doing summer seasonal
work in Thunder Bay, he spent the winter working in a bakery there and
this is how he made sourfaux and how I make it now:

3 cups flour, one cup water, one to one-and-a-half teaspoons of salt and
a light sprinkling of dried yeast - maybe a quarter teaspoon or so, Mix
it all together then leave covered in a warm place for 18 - 24 hours or
thereabouts.

With the empty bakeware[2] inside it, turn the oven up to 11, Spinal Tap
style.

Once the oven is obscenely hot, roll the risen dough into the bakeware,
put the lid on and bake in the oven at a furiously hot temperature for
15mts. Then turn the oven down to about 180c for another 15 mts and then
roll the loaf out of the bakeware and continue baking on the rails of
the oven for 15-30mts until it is done.

HTH


Nick
[1]I have one. I can't recommend it because I don't think it is made any
more but I use it mostly to do the "grunt" work of kneading the dough
and take it through the first rise. I then do the easy bits by hand

[2]Before I was given a real, cast-iron Dutch Oven, I used to use an
enamelled metal casserole with a lid. Either work well.

[Kate B]

Post by nick

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly difficult
to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket delivery in
the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am considering
investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if so,
do you have any personal recommendations?  If I'm getting one, would
like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well with
gluten-free recipes.  Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to make
bread any more.

Before you invest in an expensive breadmaking machine[1] have you
considered either sourdough or sourfaux? There's no effort and hardly
any human interaction with either and both can probably be made with
what you already have in your kitchen.
I have never got around to working out how to make and keep alive a masa
madre so it's sourfaux for me. When my son was doing summer seasonal
work in Thunder Bay, he spent the winter working in a bakery there and
3 cups flour, one cup water, one to one-and-a-half teaspoons of salt and
a light sprinkling of dried yeast - maybe a quarter teaspoon or so, Mix
it all together then leave covered in a warm place for 18 - 24 hours or
thereabouts.
With the empty bakeware[2] inside it, turn the oven up to 11, Spinal Tap
style.
Once the oven is obscenely hot, roll the risen dough into the bakeware,
put the lid on and bake in the oven at a furiously hot temperature for
15mts. Then turn the oven down to about 180c for another 15 mts and then
roll the loaf out of the bakeware and continue baking on the rails of
the oven for 15-30mts until it is done.
HTH
Nick
[1]I have one. I can't recommend it because I don't think it is made any
more but I use it mostly to do the "grunt" work of kneading the dough
and take it through the first rise. I then do the easy bits by hand
[2]Before I was given a real, cast-iron Dutch Oven, I used to use an
enamelled metal casserole with a lid. Either work well.

how extremely interesting, does that work with wholemeal and seedy flour
etc as well? I live five minutes walk from a fantastic bakery (Twelve
Triangles for those who know Edinburgh) but it is ridiculously expensive
and it would be good to have an alternative. We used an old but good
Panasonic breadmaker in London which was brilliant through lockdown, but
has been unused now for four years and is possibly defunct anyway.

[Nick Odell]

Post by Kate B

Post by nick

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly difficult
to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket delivery in
the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am considering
investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if so,
do you have any personal recommendations?  If I'm getting one, would
like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well with
gluten-free recipes.  Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to make
bread any more.

Before you invest in an expensive breadmaking machine[1] have you
considered either sourdough or sourfaux? There's no effort and hardly
any human interaction with either and both can probably be made with
what you already have in your kitchen.
I have never got around to working out how to make and keep alive a masa
madre so it's sourfaux for me. When my son was doing summer seasonal
work in Thunder Bay, he spent the winter working in a bakery there and
3 cups flour, one cup water, one to one-and-a-half teaspoons of salt and
a light sprinkling of dried yeast - maybe a quarter teaspoon or so, Mix
it all together then leave covered in a warm place for 18 - 24 hours or
thereabouts.
With the empty bakeware[2] inside it, turn the oven up to 11, Spinal Tap
style.
Once the oven is obscenely hot, roll the risen dough into the bakeware,
put the lid on and bake in the oven at a furiously hot temperature for
15mts. Then turn the oven down to about 180c for another 15 mts and then
roll the loaf out of the bakeware and continue baking on the rails of
the oven for 15-30mts until it is done.
HTH
Nick
[1]I have one. I can't recommend it because I don't think it is made any
more but I use it mostly to do the "grunt" work of kneading the dough
and take it through the first rise. I then do the easy bits by hand
[2]Before I was given a real, cast-iron Dutch Oven, I used to use an
enamelled metal casserole with a lid. Either work well.

how extremely interesting, does that work with wholemeal and seedy flour
etc as well? I live five minutes walk from a fantastic bakery (Twelve
Triangles for those who know Edinburgh) but it is ridiculously expensive
and it would be good to have an alternative. We used an old but good
Panasonic breadmaker in London which was brilliant through lockdown, but
has been unused now for four years and is possibly defunct anyway.

I'm currently making 100% wholemeal loaves with seeds and nuts and the
result is usually somewhat -erme- Germanic. If you like that sort of
thing - and I do and I eat it thinly sliced - that's ideal. If you
want a more risen loaf then a proportion of strong, white flour needs
to be added. A lot of wholemeal loaves aren't 100% wholemeal anyway so
experimenting to get the taste and texture you like is the way to go.

100% wholemeal flour doesn't have enough gluten to make it rise very
well on its own but whether that's sufficiently gluten free to call it
gluten free, I don't know. Those people who make proper gluten free
baked products will know better.

Top tip to get a better rise. If your yeast doesn't already
incorporate vitamin C as a flour improver, add a pinch of vitamin C.
In just the same way as I strongly recommend against mixing raw
vitamin C powder into a supposedly soothing drink when you want to
treat a cold (DAMHIKT), I strongly recommend against chopping up an
effervescent lemon-flavoured vitamin C tablet to use when making
bread.

Nick

[Clive Arthur]

On 16/02/2025 15:17, Nick Odell wrote:

<snipped>

Panasonic here, works fine and I rarely buy bread.

Post by Nick Odell
I'm currently making 100% wholemeal loaves with seeds and nuts and the
result is usually somewhat -erme- Germanic. If you like that sort of
thing - and I do and I eat it thinly sliced - that's ideal. If you
want a more risen loaf then a proportion of strong, white flour needs
to be added. A lot of wholemeal loaves aren't 100% wholemeal anyway so
experimenting to get the taste and texture you like is the way to go.
100% wholemeal flour doesn't have enough gluten to make it rise very
well on its own but whether that's sufficiently gluten free to call it
gluten free, I don't know. Those people who make proper gluten free
baked products will know better.

AIUI, wholemeal bread (strong) flour does contain gluten, but the
roughness of the bran cuts some of the gluten strands as they're formed.

Post by Nick Odell
Top tip to get a better rise. If your yeast doesn't already
incorporate vitamin C as a flour improver, add a pinch of vitamin C.
In just the same way as I strongly recommend against mixing raw
vitamin C powder into a supposedly soothing drink when you want to
treat a cold (DAMHIKT), I strongly recommend against chopping up an
effervescent lemon-flavoured vitamin C tablet to use when making
bread.

I find that substituting 20g of flour with milled flax seed helps keep
the structure, but I usually use 25% white as well.

My normal loaf is:
280g wholemeal, 20g milled flax seed, 100g white, 1tsp salt, 1tsp sugar
15g olive oil, 300g water.

Our machine is the second Panasonic we've had, and it's interesting how
the standard recipes have changed. The old one nearly always had
vitamin C and powdered milk in the recipes, but not the newer one.

And for the novice, the yeast always goes in first and the water last.
The flour then prevents the water from getting to the yeast until it's
time to start kneading.

[john ashby]

Post by nick

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly difficult
to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket delivery in
the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am considering
investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if so,
do you have any personal recommendations?  If I'm getting one, would
like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well with
gluten-free recipes.  Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to make
bread any more.

Before you invest in an expensive breadmaking machine[1] have you
considered either sourdough or sourfaux? There's no effort and hardly
any human interaction with either and both can probably be made with
what you already have in your kitchen.
I have never got around to working out how to make and keep alive a masa
madre so it's sourfaux for me. When my son was doing summer seasonal
work in Thunder Bay, he spent the winter working in a bakery there and
3 cups flour, one cup water, one to one-and-a-half teaspoons of salt and
a light sprinkling of dried yeast - maybe a quarter teaspoon or so, Mix
it all together then leave covered in a warm place for 18 - 24 hours or
thereabouts.
With the empty bakeware[2] inside it, turn the oven up to 11, Spinal Tap
style.
Once the oven is obscenely hot, roll the risen dough into the bakeware,
put the lid on and bake in the oven at a furiously hot temperature for
15mts. Then turn the oven down to about 180c for another 15 mts and then
roll the loaf out of the bakeware and continue baking on the rails of
the oven for 15-30mts until it is done.
HTH
Nick
[1]I have one. I can't recommend it because I don't think it is made any
more but I use it mostly to do the "grunt" work of kneading the dough
and take it through the first rise. I then do the easy bits by hand
[2]Before I was given a real, cast-iron Dutch Oven, I used to use an
enamelled metal casserole with a lid. Either work well.

Another option may be to invest in a decent stand mixer (e.g. a Kenwood
Chef) with a dough hook to make the kneading and knocking back easy.
With a bowl cover the dough can be left to prove in the mixer (provided
the room is not an icebox) and the only manual intervention is shaping
into a loaf tin or your dutch oven.

I used to have a breadmaker (I used to have a stand mixer as wel but
that was in another country, and beside the wench is dead) but only used
it to mix the dough, there was something I didn't like about the braed
it produced, a chemical taste.

Nowadays I make a seeded sourdough with wholemeal flour (sometimes a bit
of white) using a starter which I feed with rye. POI makes sourdoough
with mainly rye flour, many seeds and whole hazelnuts. We're currently
experimenting with cooking that in a new air fryer oven combination.

Unfortunatley I can't offer any advice on baking gluten free bread.

john

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by john ashby

Post by nick

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly difficult
to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket delivery in
the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am considering
investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if so,
do you have any personal recommendations?  If I'm getting one, would
like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well with
gluten-free recipes.  Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to make
bread any more.

Before you invest in an expensive breadmaking machine[1] have you
considered either sourdough or sourfaux? There's no effort and hardly
any human interaction with either and both can probably be made with
what you already have in your kitchen.
I have never got around to working out how to make and keep alive a masa
madre so it's sourfaux for me. When my son was doing summer seasonal
work in Thunder Bay, he spent the winter working in a bakery there and
3 cups flour, one cup water, one to one-and-a-half teaspoons of salt and
a light sprinkling of dried yeast - maybe a quarter teaspoon or so, Mix
it all together then leave covered in a warm place for 18 - 24 hours or
thereabouts.
With the empty bakeware[2] inside it, turn the oven up to 11, Spinal Tap
style.
Once the oven is obscenely hot, roll the risen dough into the bakeware,
put the lid on and bake in the oven at a furiously hot temperature for
15mts. Then turn the oven down to about 180c for another 15 mts and then
roll the loaf out of the bakeware and continue baking on the rails of
the oven for 15-30mts until it is done.
HTH
Nick
[1]I have one. I can't recommend it because I don't think it is made any
more but I use it mostly to do the "grunt" work of kneading the dough
and take it through the first rise. I then do the easy bits by hand
[2]Before I was given a real, cast-iron Dutch Oven, I used to use an
enamelled metal casserole with a lid. Either work well.

Another option may be to invest in a decent stand mixer (e.g. a Kenwood
Chef) with a dough hook to make the kneading and knocking back easy.
With a bowl cover the dough can be left to prove in the mixer (provided
the room is not an icebox) and the only manual intervention is shaping
into a loaf tin or your dutch oven.
I used to have a breadmaker (I used to have a stand mixer as wel but
that was in another country, and beside the wench is dead) but only used
it to mix the dough, there was something I didn't like about the braed
it produced, a chemical taste.
Nowadays I make a seeded sourdough with wholemeal flour (sometimes a bit
of white) using a starter which I feed with rye. POI makes sourdoough
with mainly rye flour, many seeds and whole hazelnuts. We're currently
experimenting with cooking that in a new air fryer oven combination.
Unfortunatley I can't offer any advice on baking gluten free bread.

Re: Kenwood Chef. If you use one, invest in a set of earplugs.

I use ours (roughly) every other day to squeeze oranges - Wofe loves
freshly squeezed orange juice but not the pasteurized stuff from a carton.
Hence me squeezing oranges (using the appropriate attachment).
To do this, my ear is within a foot or so of the Kenwood... it's loud.

Wofe will complain (loudly) about the horrible noise - even if she is at
the opposite end of the kitchen (or adjacent room), but it's my ears
that are at peril.

[nick]

On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 13:17:32 +0000, nick wrote:

<snip>

Post by nick
3 cups flour, one cup water, one to one-and-a-half teaspoons of salt and
a light sprinkling of dried yeast - maybe a quarter teaspoon or so, Mix
it all together then leave covered in a warm place for 18 - 24 hours or
thereabouts.

<snip>

Just to clarify: when I say mix it all together, I'm not talking about
stirring away at it for half an hour or setting the Kenwood to work for
twenty minutes. I think some cookery books use the term "combine." All
that is necessary is to see that the ingredients are reasonably evenly
distributed, that there are no pools of clear water nor patches of dry
flour. It takes about thirty seconds with a fork to combine all the
ingredients/mix it all together- no effort required.

Nick

[Chris]

Post by nick
<snip>

Post by nick
3 cups flour, one cup water, one to one-and-a-half teaspoons of salt and
a light sprinkling of dried yeast - maybe a quarter teaspoon or so, Mix
it all together then leave covered in a warm place for 18 - 24 hours or
thereabouts.

<snip>
Just to clarify: when I say mix it all together, I'm not talking about
stirring away at it for half an hour or setting the Kenwood to work for
twenty minutes. I think some cookery books use the term "combine." All
that is necessary is to see that the ingredients are reasonably evenly
distributed, that there are no pools of clear water nor patches of dry
flour. It takes about thirty seconds with a fork to combine all the
ingredients/mix it all together- no effort required.
Nick

Where’s Mr McToodles!! He made gluten free bread for me. It was
*rubbish* and took him ages as well. He’s still using the Panasonic we had
when we did the BBQs for himself as well. In fact his big sister was a
Home Economics teacher and after her daughter developed a severe gluten
intolerance, she tried very hard and found nothing as good as gluten.

Lots of commercial gf breads are over priced and over egg the pudding.
Sliced badly and tasteless. Also most have apple juice which I can’t
tolerate. The only bread that looks and tastes like bread is Co op seeded
and it looks professional. All the slices are evenly sliced. I’ll be
trying a white version shortly. £2.00 a loaf. Much better value.

Mrs McT

[Mike McMillan]

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly difficult
to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket delivery in
the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am considering
investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if so,
do you have any personal recommendations? If I'm getting one, would
like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well with
gluten-free recipes. Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to make
bread any more.
TIA

Panasonic every time here, I would highly recommend them; there are a few
models and those at the top end of the price range will produce all manner
of doughs or loaves. I don’t use ours as often as once as Mrs. McToodles
can no longer eat any of the loaves I used to make for UMRA BBQ;s etc.

[Jane Vernon]

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly difficult
to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket delivery in
the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am considering
investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if so,
do you have any personal recommendations?  If I'm getting one, would
like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well with
gluten-free recipes.  Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to make
bread any more.

Thanks for all the responses. For clarity, yes I already have a Kenwood
Chef and used to make bread that way. Because of the lack of energy you
get with Long Covid, I am looking for a less energy-using (human energy)
method of producing an unsliced loaf.

My stepson has a Panasonic and they are very happy with it so I suspect
I will go for one of those in the end, although so many of the newer
Panasonic breadmakers have reviews which say "it's nothing like as good
as my old Panasonic and I wish I hadn't bought it." I guess I will
probably fork out more money than I can really afford in order to get
one that I can be sure of. The one thing I can say is that their model
has 81% 5* reviews, which is the highest. Some of the others have as
low as 51%. My daughter-in-law is going to bring me a wholemeal loaf
from their breadmaker to try.

[john ashby]

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly difficult
to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket delivery
in the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am considering
investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if
so, do you have any personal recommendations?  If I'm getting one,
would like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well
with gluten-free recipes.  Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to
make bread any more.

Thanks for all the responses.  For clarity, yes I already have a Kenwood
Chef and used to make bread that way.  Because of the lack of energy you
get with Long Covid, I am looking for a less energy-using (human energy)
method of producing an unsliced loaf.

My apologies fot the egg-sucking lesson.

john

[Jane Vernon]

Post by john ashby

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly
difficult to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket
delivery in the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am
considering investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if
so, do you have any personal recommendations?  If I'm getting one,
would like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well
with gluten-free recipes.  Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to
make bread any more.

Thanks for all the responses.  For clarity, yes I already have a
Kenwood Chef and used to make bread that way.  Because of the lack of
energy you get with Long Covid, I am looking for a less energy-using
(human energy) method of producing an unsliced loaf.

My apologies fot the egg-sucking lesson.
john

No apology needed but before this goes any further I should say that
egg-sucking's extra, luv.

[Chris]

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by john ashby

Post by Jane Vernon
Well, here I am with Long Covid and it becoming increasingly
difficult to buy an unsliced wholemeal loaf if you have a supermarket
delivery in the mornings, which I have to have, and therefore am
considering investing in a breadmaker.
"Do The Team Think?" - or Ask Umra - they are worth the money and if
so, do you have any personal recommendations?  If I'm getting one,
would like it to be able to prepare pizza dough and also work well
with gluten-free recipes.  Oh, and make bread with additions and GOOD
wholemeal bread, such as I would make myself if I had the energy to
make bread any more.

Thanks for all the responses.  For clarity, yes I already have a
Kenwood Chef and used to make bread that way.  Because of the lack of
energy you get with Long Covid, I am looking for a less energy-using
(human energy) method of producing an unsliced loaf.

My apologies fot the egg-sucking lesson.
john

No apology needed but before this goes any further I should say that
egg-sucking's extra, luv.

Giggle